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Fantasy » alt.fan.tolkien » Re: JRRT and CS Lewis
| Re: JRRT and CS Lewis [message #152170] |
Sa, 15 Oktober 2005 18:30 |
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Nazgul wrote:
>> =D6jevind L=E5ngwrote:
>> The point is that right-wing Catholics supported Franco to the
hilt
>> and still do so.
>> Franco founded his own Fascist party called the Falangists. He
>> also decorated Hitler and Mussolini with "the Order of the Red
Arrows"
>> after the bombing of Guernica.
>I'm utterly amazed after such display of historical
ignorance.
You shouldn't be. You should be amazed at your own pretentiousness,
considering how shallow your knowledge is.
>- First, Franco was not the founder of the Falangist
fascist party[/b:77e1c2dc83] -or any other party-. The
founder was somebody called Jose Antonio Primo de
Rivera,[/b:77e1c2dc83] who died executed by the communist Republican
regime. Today's falagists loathe Franco as they blame him to let Jose
Antonio die.
Primo de Rivera founded the Falange espa=F1ola in 1933 as a fascist
combat organization. It was not a political party. In April 1937,
Franco fused the various elements of the anti-Republican rebel movement
into one united political party, the "Falange espa=F1ola tradicionalista
y de las juntas de ofensiva nacional-socialista (F. E. T. y de las J.
O=2E N. S.)". It united reactionary officers, monarchists, Carlists and
fascists, but the fascism predominated - Franco was called "El
Caudillo" and gave his party many of the trappings of a fascist
ovement, and no king (of any dynastic branch) was enthroned for the
duration of Franco's life. So I feel free to say that Franco founded
the Falangist party. Incidentally, I'd like any reader of this to note
that he included the term "and of the fighting national socialist
juntas" in his new party's name and then consider whether this
indicates an affinity with Hitler or not.
>- Second, the town of Guernica was devastated by the
German "Condor Legion", not by the Italian
aviation.[/b:77e1c2dc83]Mussolini got the cross for assisting with
logistic resources Franco
to fly his colonial troops from Africa to mainland Spain, which was
key to the success of the insurgency -Strait Passover Operation-, not
for any bombings.
I said that Franco decorated Hitler and Mussolini after Guernica, not
that Italian aircraft participated in Guernica. In fact, in a previous
post I specifically mentioned that Guernica was devastated by the
Condor Legion.
>- And third and most important: not only right wing
Catholics supported Franco,[/b:77e1c2dc83] Franco was supported by
the wide Catholic community -left or right- fearing the massacres of
the Republican communist regime.
The Catholic community in the Basque Country was solidly behind the
Republic. There were also left-wing Catholics in other parts of the
world who were perfectly aware that the Catholic hierarchy in Spain was
widely hated for its support of exploitative landlords. That does not,
of course, mean that the excesses against priests and nuns in the first
years of the Republic were justified. But it does mean that there were
alternatives to siding with a coup-making General whose cruelty was
already widely known.
The elected Republican government (not "the communist Republican
regime" or "the Republican communist regime") was made up of and
supported by a wide variety of groups: bourgeois republicans, liberals,
social democrats, anarchists, syndicalists, communists. It is true that
towards the end, communism gained in influence, but that was primarily
due to the hypocritical "nonintervention" policy of the western
democracies, a policy which in practice meant giving Franco and his
friends Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy free hands in Spain. The Soviet
Union did not send much help, but it did send some, and that,
inevitably, increased the prestige of the Communists.
>Please, next time you resource to a subject is beyond your wit to
sustain your argument, I'd kindly recommend you to get informed about
it.
PKB.
>Franco was supported by an heterogeneous blend
[/b:77e1c2dc83]of Catholics, Conservatives, Nationalists,
Monarchists, and Fascists, which had very little in common save their
opposition to the settlement of the Komintern in Spain.
This is the way Tolkien's involvement with the
nationalist side in the Spanish Civil War should be
understood.[/b:77e1c2dc83]
And how should one understand Tolkien's admiration for an unabashed
Fascist such as Roy Campbell? Personally, I think he was blinded by his
right-wing brand of Catholicism, and also because Campbell managed to
charm him.
I have already addressed the matter of the heterogeneity of Franco's
supporters. He whipped them into shape, all right. It's no coincidence
that during WWII, Franco very nearly joined the war on Hitler's side
but refrained because the rewards offered were not high enough for his
liking. (He wanted French North Africa, but Hitler rejected that
because he still hoped to get Vichy France to join the war on his
side.)
=D6. L=E5ng
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| Re: JRRT and CS Lewis [message #152177 ] |
So, 16 Oktober 2005 02:42 |
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ojevind.lang [at] bredband.net wrote:
> And how should one understand Tolkien's admiration for an unabashed
> Fascist such as Roy Campbell? Personally, I think he was blinded by his
> right-wing brand of Catholicism, and also because Campbell managed to
> charm him.
Would you mind explaining what you mean by "right-wing"
Catholicism since you keep using the term? (And no
fair defining it in terms of liking Roy Campbell or
supporting the Spanish Nationalists since that would
be circular reasoning!) Is it any different from
what the Church regards as orthodox Catholicism?
-- FotW
Coming soon: Windows VISTA (Viruses, Infections, Spyware,
Trojans, Adware)
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