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Fantasy » alt.fan.tolkien » Invisible clothes and other things that go bump in the night...
Invisible clothes and other things that go bump in the night... [message #149071] Mi, 12 Oktober 2005 16:55
onq  
Why did Frodo and Bilbo before him disappear enirely while wearing the
One Ring, while the Nazgul wore clothes that didn't disappear?

In fact the Nazgul wore "invisible" clothes as well it seems:

" Frodo looked back for a moment over his shoulder. He could no longer
see his friends. The Riders behind were falling back: even their great
steeds were no match in speed for the white elf-horse of Glorfindel. He
looked forward again, and hope faded. There seemed no chance of reaching
the Ford before he was cut off by the others that had lain in ambush. He
could see them clearly now: they appeared to have cast aside their hoods
and black cloaks, and they were robed in white and grey. Swords were
naked in their pale hands; helms were on their heads. Their cold eyes
glittered, and they called to him with fell voices."

Gandalf's phasing into the wraith world explanation fails to satisfy;-

" 'Yes, fortune or fate have helped you,' said Gandalf, 'not to mention
courage. For your heart was not touched, and only your shoulder was
pierced; and that was because you resisted to the last. But it was a
terribly narrow shave, so to speak. You were in gravest peril while you
wore the Ring, for then you were half in the wraith-world yourself, and
they might have seized you. You could see them, and they could see you.'"

In going on to explain their "visibility"to Frodo, Gandalf seems to be
fudging the issue.

" 'I know,' said Frodo. 'They were terrible to behold! But why could we
all see their horses?'

'Because they are real horses; just as the black robes are real robes
that they wear to give shape to their nothingness when they have dealings
with the living.'"

So. What's the story?

M.
Re: Invisible clothes and other things that go bump in the night... [message #149072 ] Mi, 12 Oktober 2005 18:08
Switchback  
I think it's due to the fact that they put on those garments after
Sauron reclaimed the Nine from them, but anything they had been wearing
when they initially faded was invisible.
Re: Invisible clothes and other things that go bump in the night... [message #149078 ] Do, 13 Oktober 2005 00:30
Conrad Dunkerson  
Michael O'Neill wrote:
> Why did Frodo and Bilbo before him disappear enirely while wearing the
> One Ring, while the Nazgul wore clothes that didn't disappear?

Clothes worn before becoming a wraith fade with them. Clothes put on
after that are visible unless they are wearing a Ring at the time;

"Yes, if the Ring overcomes you, you yourself become permanently
invisible - and it is a horrible cold feeling. Everything becomes very
faint like grey ghost pictures against the black background in which you
live; but you can smell more clearly than you can hear or see. You have
no power however like a Ring of making other things invisible: you are a
ringwraith. You can wear clothes. [> you are just a ringwraith; and
your clothes are visible, unless the Lord lends you a ring.] But you
are under the command of the Lord of the Rings."
RotS, Of Gollum and the Ring
Re: Invisible clothes and other things that go bump in the night... [message #149079 ] Do, 13 Oktober 2005 00:41
sbjensen  
Quoth conrad.dunkerson [at] worldnet.att.net in article
<48g3f.9021$AR1.6804 [at] trndny09>:
> Michael O'Neill wrote:
> > Why did Frodo and Bilbo before him disappear enirely while wearing
> > the One Ring, while the Nazgul wore clothes that didn't disappear?

> Clothes worn before becoming a wraith fade with them. Clothes put
> on after that are visible unless they are wearing a Ring at the
> time;

This has been my impression for a long time (and still is), but it
does have at least one surprising implication: the Nazgul haven't
changed clothes in thousands of years! That's actually pretty
freakish, when you get right down to it. Is it reasonable to believe
that the Nazgul actually had a whole invisible wardrobe (some set of
clothes that they'd worn often enough over their centuries with their
Rings to turn all of them invisible). I guess that those clothes
would be protected from "decay", but you'd think that they'd at least
snag or tear every century or two. And wouldn't they start to smell
pretty bad? Just how different were the Nazgul than ordinary human
beings, anyway?

On another note, this may have been brought up before, but isn't this
another piece of evidence that the Nazgul were not wearing their Rings
at the time of LotR? Their armor and clothing had faded with them
while they did have their Rings, I'm very willing to accept that. But
if they put on a Ring while wearing those black cloaks, the cloaks
would have become invisible, too (unless you're willing to posit the
existence of anti-invisibility cloaks, which I guess some are).

Steuard Jensen
Re: Invisible clothes and other things that go bump in the night... [message #149081 ] Do, 13 Oktober 2005 02:50
Leon Trollski  
"Steuard Jensen" <sbjensen [at] midway.uchicago.edu> wrote in message
news:xig3f.10$25.862 [at] news.uchicago.edu...

> This has been my impression for a long time (and still is), but it
> does have at least one surprising implication: the Nazgul haven't
> changed clothes in thousands of years! That's actually pretty
> freakish, when you get right down to it. Is it reasonable to believe
> that the Nazgul actually had a whole invisible wardrobe (some set of
> clothes that they'd worn often enough over their centuries with their
> Rings to turn all of them invisible). I guess that those clothes
> would be protected from "decay", but you'd think that they'd at least
> snag or tear every century or two. And wouldn't they start to smell
> pretty bad? Just how different were the Nazgul than ordinary human
> beings, anyway?


No.
They walked "unclad" when wishing to be invisible. This is how they crossed
Anduin, and were "furnished with horses and raimient on the other side." I
other words, they went naked. There's no need to get into invisible
wardrobes.
Re: Invisible clothes and other things that go bump in the night... [message #149083 ] Do, 13 Oktober 2005 03:43
sbjensen  
Quoth "Leon Trollski" <fandom [at] netguy.net> in article
<ubi3f.173901$tl2.52346 [at] pd7tw3no>:
> "Steuard Jensen" <sbjensen [at] midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
> > This has been my impression for a long time (and still is), but it
> > does have at least one surprising implication: the Nazgul haven't
> > changed clothes in thousands of years!

> They walked "unclad" when wishing to be invisible. This is how they
> crossed Anduin, and were "furnished with horses and raimient on the
> other side." I other words, they went naked. There's no need to
> get into invisible wardrobes.

Well, whether that means that they crossed the Anduin with no visible
robes or with no clothes at all, they certainly had both visible and
invisible clothing when Frodo put on the Ring and saw them on
Weathertop:

Immediately, though everything else remained as before, dim and
dark, the shapes became terribly clear. He was able to see beneath
their black wrappings. There were five tall figures.... In their
white faces burned keen and merciless eyes; under their mantles
were long grey robes; upon their grey hairs were helms of silver;
in their haggard hands were swords of steel.... The third was
taller than the others: his hair was long and gleaming and on his
helm was a crown.

Now, none of the others saw any of this (they had no idea what Frodo
meant when he asked "Where is the pale king?", for example). All that
they were able to see was what Frodo had been able to see before
putting on the Ring: the "black wrappings". (I believe that their
weapons were probably visible as well, based on other evidence.) At
the very least, nobody else could see the crown on the Witch King's
helm (or else they would have understood Frodo's question). And I
think it's telling that Frodo only observed things like the grey robes
and silver helms after he put on the Ring.

So I continue to maintain that the Nazgul had at least some invisible
clothes and armor. I don't see any other way to explain Frodo's
observations quoted above.
Steuard Jensen
Re: Invisible clothes and other things that go bump in the night... [message #149084 ] Do, 13 Oktober 2005 03:57
donnellaf  
Steuard Jensen wrote:

> On another note, this may have been brought up before, but isn't this
> another piece of evidence that the Nazgul were not wearing their Rings
> at the time of LotR? Their armor and clothing had faded with them
> while they did have their Rings, I'm very willing to accept that. But
> if they put on a Ring while wearing those black cloaks, the cloaks
> would have become invisible, too (unless you're willing to posit the
> existence of anti-invisibility cloaks, which I guess some are).

I would tend to think that the Nazgul had a greater amount of control
over the invisibility effect of their rings. Is this effect an
intrinsic part of a ring of power? I tend to think that it is not--I
don't think Sauron was invisible while wearing the ring, I doubt the
elves would have built theirs with such an intrinsic property. The men
faded to wraiths over time, not instantaneously (which, I admit, does
not prove that they were visible before being wholly confined to the
other realm). The involuntary invisibility seems more like a
side-effect on those whose inherent strength is not great enough to bear
the full power at will, and the capture of certain articles of clothing
by the effect could come as much from the unconscious of the wearer as
from the ring itself (Bilbo's buttons reappear when they are no longer
"part" of him).

The intended wearers of the rings had a great presence in both worlds
already; would the ring have altered this balance? And what advantage
would the "invisibility" confer to the such powers as would be wearing
the rings and facing adversaries who can see just as well in both worlds
as they can? It seems like the invisibility is then just some quirk of
the power that bumps these hobbits and other lesser beings (even
Isildur) into the spirit world.

But even if this argument is all a wash, I still think an invisible
Nazgul would be able to don a visible cloak, if he so desired. Despite
residing in the spirit plane, they certainly have a presence in and can
manipulate the material world. Invisible Sam can hold a visible Sting
(at least in my memory, I should double check that). A Nazgul could
likely influence things enough to wear a visible cloak.



Andy
Re: Invisible clothes and other things that go bump in the night... [message #149085 ] Do, 13 Oktober 2005 07:10
danhenry  
On Wed, 12 Oct 2005 22:41:33 GMT, sbjensen [at] midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard
Jensen) wrote:

>This has been my impression for a long time (and still is), but it
>does have at least one surprising implication: the Nazgul haven't
>changed clothes in thousands of years! That's actually pretty
>freakish, when you get right down to it.

I think Frodo hallucinated the clothes; his mind was protecting him from
the sheer horror of naked impossibly-old Men.

>On another note, this may have been brought up before, but isn't this
>another piece of evidence that the Nazgul were not wearing their Rings
>at the time of LotR? Their armor and clothing had faded with them
>while they did have their Rings, I'm very willing to accept that. But
>if they put on a Ring while wearing those black cloaks, the cloaks
>would have become invisible, too (unless you're willing to posit the
>existence of anti-invisibility cloaks, which I guess some are).

On that we agree.

--
R. Dan Henry
danhenry [at] inreach.com
Re: Invisible clothes and other things that go bump in the night... [message #149088 ] Do, 13 Oktober 2005 12:12
onq  
Andrew F. Donnell wrote:
>
> Steuard Jensen wrote:
>
> > On another note, this may have been brought up before, but isn't this
> > another piece of evidence that the Nazgul were not wearing their Rings
> > at the time of LotR? Their armor and clothing had faded with them
> > while they did have their Rings, I'm very willing to accept that. But
> > if they put on a Ring while wearing those black cloaks, the cloaks
> > would have become invisible, too (unless you're willing to posit the
> > existence of anti-invisibility cloaks, which I guess some are).

> I would tend to think that the Nazgul had a greater amount of control
> over the invisibility effect of their rings.

Ehrm nope. I think not.

They were slaves of Sauron through their rings.

In that sense the Rings controlled them.

> Is this effect an
> intrinsic part of a ring of power?
> I tend to think that it is not--I
> don't think Sauron was invisible
> while wearing the ring, I doubt the
> elves would have built theirs with
> such an intrinsic property.

The invisibility IS and intrinsic effect of the Nine.
The extension of life and gradual fading is also intrinsic.
The issue is how some clothes were made invisible and
others were not.

> The men
> faded to wraiths over time, not
> instantaneously (which, I admit, does
> not prove that they were visible before
> being wholly confined to the
> other realm).

Well, I'm afraid it doesn't.

Nowhere are we told that the Nine Nazgul were NOT
invisible before they became wholly wraiths.

ON the contrary it is logical to assume that the
Rings conferred invisibility as did the One, but
their becoming wholly wraith like occurred over an
extended period, as you said.

The point being that when they were not wraiths and
they took off their rings, they were visible men, but
when Sauron kept their Rings, and they were become
wraiths, they remained invisible even without the Rings.

> The involuntary invisibility seems more like a
> side-effect on those whose inherent strength
> is not great enough to bear
> the full power at will, and the capture
> of certain articles of clothing
> by the effect could come as much from
> the unconscious of the wearer as
> from the ring itself (Bilbo's buttons
> reappear when they are no longer
> "part" of him).

I don't know what you base your assumptions on, even
running with them logically this seems not to follow.

When the men became wraiths they were invisible whether
or not they wore the Rings. Bilbo's buttons appeared when
they fell outside the "invisibility effect" of the One Ring,
another thing that is not explained fully. But at the time
Bilbo was not a wraith and both he and his clothes would
become visible again once he took off the Ring.

<another mechanism not explained, for another post>

> The intended wearers of the rings
> had a great presence in both worlds
> already; would the ring have altered this balance?

If you mean the Elves the Chapter in the LotR already
tells us the answer. Galadriel remained visible while
wearing the Ring of Adamant.

> And what advantage
> would the "invisibility" confer to
> the such powers as would be wearing
> the rings and facing adversaries who
> can see just as well in both worlds
> as they can?

You'd have to ask the Elves and Sauron that.

Sauron only made the One. The Nine were made by the Elves,
as were the Seven. We know the Nine conveyed the power of
invisibility, we do not know that the Sense did so.

> It seems like the invisibility is
> then just some quirk of
> the power that bumps these hobbits
> and other lesser beings (even
> Isildur) into the spirit world.

Except that the Three, also Elvish Rings, are stated
by Tolkien NOT to confer invisibility.

> But even if this argument is all a wash,
> I still think an invisible
> Nazgul would be able to don a
> visible cloak, if he so desired.

Q.E.D. for so Tolkien tells us, but his other utterances
do not seem to support this position, or else contradict it.
Thus, the reason for my post.

> Despite residing in the spirit plane,
> they certainly have a presence in and can
> manipulate the material world.

Are we talking about Nazgul or Ring bearers in general?

> Invisible Sam can hold a visible Sting
> (at least in my memory, I should double check that).
> A Nazgul could
> likely influence things enough
> to wear a visible cloak.

> Andy

Well the whole point is what is the meaning of "spirit"
in this context, isn't it?

How can spirits interact with the physical world at all?

It Tolkien had simply left it that the men's forms had
become invisible, that would have been the end of it, because
to all intents and purposes the Nazgul were "solid" entities
and damned near indestructible by flood, drowning, falls from
great heights, et cetera, because the One Ring sustained them.

But no, somewhere along the line he confused their "durability"
with being "spirits" that the natural world could not harm,
instead of invisible "solid" forms that the One Ring protected
from harm so long as it existed.

mind you, that begs the question why the One Ring didn't protect
Sauron's original body during the Downfall of Númenor.

But that's also for another thread.

M.
Re: Invisible clothes and other things that go bump in the night... [message #149089 ] Do, 13 Oktober 2005 12:20
onq  
Conrad Dunkerson wrote:

> Michael O'Neill wrote:
> > Why did Frodo and Bilbo before
> > him disappear enirely while wearing the
> > One Ring, while the Nazgul
> > wore clothes that didn't disappear?

> Clothes worn before becoming a
> wraith fade with them. Clothes put on
> after that are visible unless
> they are wearing a Ring at the time;

Where do you get thsi from? We are not told
when the Nazgul put on the clothes Frodo
sees on Weathertop while he wears the Ring.

We are told that the Witch King was warded against
harm in battle "Thou fool, no living man can harm me"!
and for all we know the invisible clothes he wore were
as much a part of his substance as his undead flesh,
perhaps [rank speculation] given him by Sauron to
cloth his undead nakedness and gird him for battle.

We do not know, yet you seem to know. Tell us more.

> "Yes, if the Ring overcomes you,
> you yourself become permanently
> invisible - and it is a horrible cold
> feeling. Everything becomes very
> faint like grey ghost pictures against
> the black background in which you
> live; but you can smell more clearly
> than you can hear or see. You have
> no power however like a Ring of making
> other things invisible: you are a
> ringwraith. You can wear clothes.
> [> you are just a ringwraith; and
> your clothes are visible, unless the
> Lord lends you a ring.] But you
> are under the command of the
> Lord of the Rings."

> RotS, Of Gollum and the Ring

Conrad, where is this quotation from?

It reads like a letter that Tolkien might have
written to a very young correspondent, or else
an extract from a David Day Entry under "Ring".

I don't recall reading previously that the Nazgul
could smell more clearly than they could hear.

The reference to clothes seems unclear and not
up to your usual standard of debate.

M.
Re: Invisible clothes and other things that go bump in the night... [message #149090 ] Do, 13 Oktober 2005 12:25
onq  
Steuard Jensen wrote:
>
> Quoth conrad.dunkerson [at] worldnet.att.net in article
> <48g3f.9021$AR1.6804 [at] trndny09>:
> > Michael O'Neill wrote:
> > > Why did Frodo and Bilbo before him disappear enirely while wearing
> > > the One Ring, while the Nazgul wore clothes that didn't disappear?

> > Clothes worn before becoming a wraith fade with them. Clothes put
> > on after that are visible unless they are wearing a Ring at the
> > time;

> This has been my impression for
> a long time (and still is), but it
> does have at least one surprising
> implication: the Nazgul haven't
> changed clothes in thousands of years!

<snip>

> Their armor and clothing had faded with them
> while they did have their Rings,
> I'm very willing to accept that.

<snip>


I think this is correct.

I think it rests with the fact that
when the Nazgul put on their cloaks, etc.
they were not wearing their Rings.

They had faded, and presumably their clothes,
and both were preserved, imperishable, while
the One Ring endured. Sauron then held their Rings.

Their new robes were donned after he had taken
their Rings. They had no intrinsic ability to
make things invisible, so the new clothes, boots
horses et cetera, although in close proximity to
them, did not become invisible.

M.
Re: Invisible clothes and other things that go bump in the night... [message #149091 ] Do, 13 Oktober 2005 12:27
onq  
Leon Trollski wrote:
>
> "Steuard Jensen" <sbjensen [at] midway.uchicago.edu> wrote in message
> news:xig3f.10$25.862 [at] news.uchicago.edu...
>
> > This has been my impression for a long time (and still is), but it
> > does have at least one surprising implication: the Nazgul haven't
> > changed clothes in thousands of years! That's actually pretty
> > freakish, when you get right down to it. Is it reasonable to believe
> > that the Nazgul actually had a whole invisible wardrobe (some set of
> > clothes that they'd worn often enough over their centuries with their
> > Rings to turn all of them invisible). I guess that those clothes
> > would be protected from "decay", but you'd think that they'd at least
> > snag or tear every century or two. And wouldn't they start to smell
> > pretty bad? Just how different were the Nazgul than ordinary human
> > beings, anyway?
>
> No.
> They walked "unclad" when wishing to be invisible. This is how they crossed
> Anduin, and were "furnished with horses and raimient on the other side." I
> other words, they went naked. There's no need to get into invisible
> wardrobes.

Actually there is.

The clothes Frodo saw on Weathertop were invisible.

How did non-wraiths "see" the invisible clothes in
order to give them to the Ringwraiths.

Why would the Ringwraiths take off invisible clothes
in order to remain invisible.

The use of the word "unclad" here seems incorrect.

Can you quote the whole passage please?


M.
Re: Invisible clothes and other things that go bump in the night... [message #149099 ] Do, 13 Oktober 2005 17:40
Graham Lockwood  
On Thu, 13 Oct 2005 05:20:02 -0500, Michael O'Neill wrote
> Conrad Dunkerson wrote:
{snip}
>> RotS, Of Gollum and the Ring
>
> Conrad, where is this quotation from?
{snip}

It's from "Return of the Shadow", aka HoME Vol VI; chapter "Of Gollum and the
Ring". I don't have the book myself but from what I can glean from the
internet, it seems to discuss the history of the Ring and the powers of the
Rings in quite a bit more depth than LotR does. However, I suspect you don't
put much stock in its "canonicity".



---
Graham
Re: Invisible clothes and other things that go bump in the night... [message #149101 ] Do, 13 Oktober 2005 21:04
onq  
On Thu, 13 Oct 2005 15:40:15 GMT, Graham Lockwood
<g-ng [at] yeehawgroups.com> wrote:

>On Thu, 13 Oct 2005 05:20:02 -0500, Michael O'Neill wrote
>> Conrad Dunkerson wrote:
>{snip}
>>> RotS, Of Gollum and the Ring
>>
>> Conrad, where is this quotation from?
>{snip}
>
>It's from "Return of the Shadow", aka HoME Vol VI; chapter "Of Gollum and the
>Ring". I don't have the book myself but from what I can glean from the
>internet, it seems to discuss the history of the Ring and the powers of the
>Rings in quite a bit more depth than LotR does. However, I suspect you don't
>put much stock in its "canonicity".
>
>
>
>---
>Graham

Oh ye of little fat, ehrm faith, yes that's it.

I'll have you know i'm a born-again cannibal. No wait... that's
"regurgitated" cannibal, isn't it?

Well, whatever, I'll take it canonicity with a large grin, sorry,
grain, of salt.

But as for the content of the piece, it stinks.

Let's regurgitate, birth again, ehrm REPLACE that unmarked whatever -
here it is;-

"Yes, if the Ring overcomes you, you yourself become permanently
invisible - and it is a horrible cold feeling. Everything becomes
very faint like grey ghost pictures against the black background in
which you live; but you can smell more clearly than you can hear or
see. You have no power however like a Ring of making other things
invisible: you are a ringwraith. You can wear clothes. [> you are
just a ringwraith; and your clothes are visible, unless the Lord
lends you a ring.] But you are under the command of the Lord of the
Rings."

Its quite obvious that the person writing it had never read the LotR,
never mind the descriptions of the "invisible" clothes the Nazgul
wore.

Pah!

M.
Re: Invisible clothes and other things that go bump in the night... [message #149104 ] Fr, 14 Oktober 2005 01:14
Conrad Dunkerson  
Michael O'Neill wrote:

> Where do you get thsi from?

Extrapolating from the passage quoted below it. The permanently faded
having invisible clothes faded with them bit was also stated, but then
apparently rejected right away (CT doesn't provide any more detail than
that)... yet as noted we then do see invisible clothing on the Nazgul.

> and for all we know the invisible clothes he wore were
> as much a part of his substance as his undead flesh,
> perhaps [rank speculation] given him by Sauron to
> cloth his undead nakedness and gird him for battle.

My own take has generally been that clothes give them a visible shape...
so they can interact with normal people. Nothing more.

I had quoted from;
>>RotS, Of Gollum and the Ring

> Conrad, where is this quotation from?

Where it says it is from... Return of the Shadow, 'Of Gollum and the Ring'.

> It reads like a letter that Tolkien might have
> written to a very young correspondent, or else
> an extract from a David Day Entry under "Ring".

It's from an early draft when Tolkien was still thinking of LotR as only
a 'sequel to The Hobbit'. The speaker is unidentified (it's a
fragment), but most likely Gandalf.

> I don't recall reading previously that the Nazgul
> could smell more clearly than they could hear.

Remember all that bit about the Nazgul sniffing after the Hobbits in the
Shire? This is where it comes from.

> The reference to clothes seems unclear and not
> up to your usual standard of debate.

<?>

Whatever. It's a quotation. It provides an explanation for the
question. Their robes aren't invisible because they are not wearing
Rings. It is nowhere contradicted. Can it be dismissed as
'non-canonical'? Certainly, just like virtually everything else.
Re: Invisible clothes and other things that go bump in the night... [message #149105 ] Fr, 14 Oktober 2005 01:33
ojevind.lang  
R=2E Dan Henry wrote:

>On Wed, 12 Oct 2005 22:41:33 GMT, sbjen... [at] midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard
Jensen) wrote:

>>This has been my impression for a long time (and still is), but it
>>does have at least one surprising implication: the Nazgul haven't
>>changed clothes in thousands of years! That's actually pretty
>>freakish, when you get right down to it.

>I think Frodo hallucinated the clothes; his mind was protecting him from
the sheer horror of naked impossibly-old Men.

LOL!

=D6jevind
Re: Invisible clothes and other things that go bump in the night... [message #149106 ] Fr, 14 Oktober 2005 01:34
Flame of the West  
Conrad Dunkerson wrote:

> yet as noted we then do see invisible clothing on the Nazgul.

How do we see invisible clothing?


-- FotW

Coming soon: Windows VISTA (Viruses, Infections, Spyware,
Trojans, Adware)
Re: Invisible clothes and other things that go bump in the night... [message #149107 ] Fr, 14 Oktober 2005 02:33
donnellaf  
Michael O'Neill wrote:
> Andrew F. Donnell wrote:
>
> Ehrm nope. I think not.
>
> They were slaves of Sauron through their rings.
>
> In that sense the Rings controlled them.

In that sense, yes, but, in other senses, the rings gave them more power
than they would have had without them.

>>Is this effect an
>>intrinsic part of a ring of power?
>>I tend to think that it is not--I
>>don't think Sauron was invisible
>>while wearing the ring, I doubt the
>>elves would have built theirs with
>>such an intrinsic property.
>
>
> The invisibility IS and intrinsic effect of the Nine.
> The extension of life and gradual fading is also intrinsic.
> The issue is how some clothes were made invisible and
> others were not.

The invisibility, generally, sounds like a shifting of the person from
the material plane to the spiritual plane. I think the limits of what
undergoes this shift are in the subconscious of the person who is
shifting. If his conception of himself includes his clothing, then the
clothing goes with him. And most of us, if we were suddenly
dematerialized and brought into a virtual plane (like _The Matrix_),
would keep our clothes, as it makes the shift less jarring to our sense
of continuity.

People who have greater inherent power, and have had time to cultivate
this power with their ring (i.e., the Nazgul), would likely be able to
exert more control over this phenomenon, just as it would take effort
for one of the wise to master the One. Lowly Hobbits and the novice
Isildur have less say in the matter.

About the nine, in the Sil, Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age:
"They could walk, if they would, unseen by all eyes in this world
beneath the sun, and they could see things in worlds invisible to mortal
men; but too often they beheld only the phantoms and delusions of
Sauron. And one by one, sooner or later, according to their native
strength and to the good or evil of their wills in the beginning, they
fell under the thraldom of the ring that they bore and under the
domination of the One, which was Sauron's. And they became for ever
invisible save to him that wore the Ruling Ring, and they entered into
the realm of shadows."

"They *could* walk, *if they would.*" This implies that they did have
control over the ability. And it doesn't sound like a control as simple
as putting on or taking off the ring.

So they have more control over the invisibility effect, and they have,
by now, fairly concrete forms in the spirit world. I don't have a
problem with them manifesting in this world and interacting with, say, a
robe, without the invisibility running out and grabbing it.

In terms of a mechanism for invisibility, I see this not exactly as
taking their material body and transplanting it into the spirit plane,
but rather more of an unforming of their body and a refocusing of their
spirit into a discernable form in the spirit plane. In a recent thread
about the Valar, who seem to be less tied to their physical bodies, it
seemed that their bodies were more of a focal point for their much
larger spirits. I think a similar mechanism is in play here, when a
mortal shifts planes, he unfocuses his spirit on the material plane, and
the body dissolves. It refocuses on the spirit plane. "Luminous beings
are we, not this crude matter," if I may interject a quote from a long
time ago, in a galaxy far far away.

<Snip>


Andy
Re: Invisible clothes and other things that go bump in the night... [message #149108 ] Fr, 14 Oktober 2005 02:38
donnellaf  
Responding to nobody in particular:

Is it reasonable to compare what we know of the effect of the One Ring,
in terms of rendering people invisible, with the Nine? They were made
for expressly different purposes, and, it seems, the One was not
intended to confer invisibility, as Sauron does not seem affected in a
such a way, and it was not supposed to be worn by anybody other than him.

Is it comparing apples to apples or apples to oranges?



Andy
Re: Invisible clothes and other things that go bump in the night... [message #152151 ] Fr, 14 Oktober 2005 15:05
OMeallyMD  
Flame of the West wrote:
> Conrad Dunkerson wrote:
>
>> yet as noted we then do see invisible clothing on the Nazgul.
>
> How do we see invisible clothing?

Frodo sees it while wearing the Ring on Amon Sul.
--
Bill

"Wise fool"
Gandalf, THE TWO TOWERS
-- The Wise will remove 'se' to reply; the Foolish will not--
Re: Invisible clothes and other things that go bump in the night... [message #152152 ] Fr, 14 Oktober 2005 17:37
Stan Brown  
On Wed, 12 Oct 2005 22:41:33 GMT in rec.arts.books.tolkien, Steuard
Jensen favored us with...
> This has been my impression for a long time (and still is), but it
> does have at least one surprising implication: the Nazgul haven't
> changed clothes in thousands of years! ...
> And wouldn't they start to smell pretty bad?

Tolkien does write about the terrible power of the Nazgul. :-)

--
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Re: Invisible clothes and other things that go bump in the night... [message #152153 ] Fr, 14 Oktober 2005 17:39
Stan Brown  
On Wed, 12 Oct 2005 22:41:33 GMT in rec.arts.books.tolkien, Steuard
Jensen favored us with...
> On another note, this may have been brought up before, but isn't this
> another piece of evidence that the Nazgul were not wearing their Rings
> at the time of LotR?

Great minds think alike. This is mentioned in the FAQ of the Rings,
"A5. Then why were the Black Riders' clothes visible?"

--
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Re: Invisible clothes and other things that go bump in the night... [message #152154 ] Fr, 14 Oktober 2005 17:41
Stan Brown  
On Wed, 12 Oct 2005 21:57:08 -0400 in rec.arts.books.tolkien, Andrew
F. Donnell favored us with...
> But even if this argument is all a wash, I still think an invisible
> Nazgul would be able to don a visible cloak, if he so desired.

We know this is true -- their outer clothing was seen in the Shire,
on Weathertop, at the Ford of Bruinen, and on the Pelennor field.

--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site)
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Re: Invisible clothes and other things that go bump in the night... [message #152155 ] Fr, 14 Oktober 2005 17:45
Stan Brown  
On Thu, 13 Oct 2005 19:34:36 -0400 in rec.arts.books.tolkien, Flame
of the West favored us with...
>
> Conrad Dunkerson wrote:
>
> > yet as noted we then do see invisible clothing on the Nazgul.
>
> How do we see invisible clothing?

Through Frodo's eyes, while he's wearing the Ring on Weathertop.

Though I do take your point. From /Yes, Prime Minister/:

"I can foresee all sorts of unforeseen problems."
"Such as?"
"If I could foresee them, they wouldn't be unforeseen!"

--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA
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Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site)
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more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm
Re: Invisible clothes and other things that go bump in the night... [message #152157 ] Fr, 14 Oktober 2005 18:04
stephen  
In rec.arts.books.tolkien Steuard Jensen <sbjensen [at] midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
(quote from "A Knife in the Dark")
> Immediately, though everything else remained as before, dim and
> dark, the shapes became terribly clear. He was able to see beneath
> their black wrappings. There were five tall figures.... In their
> white faces burned keen and merciless eyes; under their mantles
> were long grey robes; upon their grey hairs were helms of silver;
> in their haggard hands were swords of steel.... The third was
> taller than the others: his hair was long and gleaming and on his
> helm was a crown.

> Now, none of the others saw any of this (they had no idea what Frodo
> meant when he asked "Where is the pale king?", for example). All that
> they were able to see was what Frodo had been able to see before
> putting on the Ring: the "black wrappings".

<snip>

> So I continue to maintain that the Nazgul had at least some invisible
> clothes and armor. I don't see any other way to explain Frodo's
> observations quoted above.

However, at the battle of the Pelennor Fields, the Witch King
was wearing a visible crown. Presumably the crown seen
at Weathertop was the crown he was wearing when he faded,
and so the crown too became permanently invisible. The crown
at Pelennor was something he picked up later in life. Perhaps
he got it from one of the Northern kingdoms.

What I wonder is, was he wearing the visible crown on top of the invisible
crown or not?

:)

Stephen
Re: Invisible clothes and other things that go bump in the night... [message #152159 ] Fr, 14 Oktober 2005 22:10
onq  
On Thu, 13 Oct 2005 19:34:36 -0400, Flame of the West
<FotW [at] NOSPAMsolinas.org> wrote:

>Conrad Dunkerson wrote:
>
>> yet as noted we then do see invisible clothing on the Nazgul.
>
>How do we see invisible clothing?

<snip>

Smartypants.

Mr. Pottymouth
Re: Invisible clothes and other things that go bump in the night... [message #152160 ] Fr, 14 Oktober 2005 22:44
Graham Lockwood  
On Fri, 14 Oct 2005 11:04:34 -0500, stephen [at] nomail.com wrote
{snip}
> However, at the battle of the Pelennor Fields, the Witch King
> was wearing a visible crown. Presumably the crown seen
> at Weathertop was the crown he was wearing when he faded,
> and so the crown too became permanently invisible. The crown
> at Pelennor was something he picked up later in life. Perhaps
> he got it from one of the Northern kingdoms.
>
> What I wonder is, was he wearing the visible crown on top of the invisible
> crown or not?

I too have wondered this. Perhaps the second crown was circular and wider
than the first crown which sat inside of it?

I agree that the invisible clothes/crowns/etc. seen by Frodo were most likely
the clothes worn by the Nazgul ages ago when they faded. Does this mean that
those clothes had somehow become PART of their physical (such as it was)
being? Would they have been INCAPABLE of removing those invisible clothes?
And if not, why would they bother to keep them? They don't seem have have
served much of a useful purpose. Most people wear clothes to A) Protect
against the elements, and B) Modesty. The Nazgul didn't seem to need them to
protect themselves and I doubt they would be particularly embaressed by
running around naked in the Spirit World. Who would care? The other Nazgul?
Sauron?



---
Graham
Re: Invisible clothes and other things that go bump in the night... [message #152162 ] Sa, 15 Oktober 2005 01:03
tenworld  
Bill O'Meally wrote:
> Flame of the West wrote:
> > Conrad Dunkerson wrote:
> >
> >> yet as noted we then do see invisible clothing on the Nazgul.
> >
> > How do we see invisible clothing?
>
> Frodo sees it while wearing the Ring on Amon Sul.
> --
> Bill
>
> "Wise fool"
> Gandalf, THE TWO TOWERS
> -- The Wise will remove 'se' to reply; the Foolish will not--

so if a Balrog wears a ring do we only see his wings?
Re: Invisible clothes and other things that go bump in the night... [message #152163 ] Sa, 15 Oktober 2005 01:53
Tamim  
In alt.fan.tolkien Stan Brown <the_stan_brown [at] fastmail.fm> wrote:


> "I can foresee all sorts of unforeseen problems."
> "Such as?"
> "If I could foresee them, they wouldn't be unforeseen!"

Humpy ;)
Re: Invisible clothes and other things that go bump in the night... [message #152166 ] Sa, 15 Oktober 2005 16:42
Stan Brown  
Dateline 14 Oct 2005 23:53:49 GMT from Tamim <hallaril [at] hotmail.com>:
> In alt.fan.tolkien Stan Brown <the_stan_brown [at] fastmail.fm> wrote:
>
>
> > "I can foresee all sorts of unforeseen problems."
> > "Such as?"
> > "If I could foresee them, they wouldn't be unforeseen!"
>
> Humpy ;)

One of my two favorite series of all time (Barney Miller being the
other), and according to Margaret Thatcher the best documentary the
BBC ever made: YES MINISTER and YES PRIME MINISTER (one series, with
a new title starting IIRC in the fourth season).

The complete series of 3+4=7 DVDs is issued by Warner as a "2-pack"
at a street price of about $90, and worth every penny.


--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site)
Tolkien letters FAQ:
http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html
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Re: Invisible clothes and other things that go bump in the night... [message #152167 ] Sa, 15 Oktober 2005 16:48
Christopher Kreuzer  
Graham Lockwood <g-ng [at] yeehawgroups.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 14 Oct 2005 11:04:34 -0500, stephen [at] nomail.com wrote
> {snip}
>> However, at the battle of the Pelennor Fields, the Witch King
>> was wearing a visible crown. Presumably the crown seen
>> at Weathertop was the crown he was wearing when he faded,
>> and so the crown too became permanently invisible. The crown
>> at Pelennor was something he picked up later in life. Perhaps
>> he got it from one of the Northern kingdoms.
>>
>> What I wonder is, was he wearing the visible crown on top of the
>> invisible crown or not?
>
> I too have wondered this. Perhaps the second crown was circular and
> wider than the first crown which sat inside of it?
>
> I agree that the invisible clothes/crowns/etc. seen by Frodo were
> most likely the clothes worn by the Nazgul ages ago when they faded.

Possibly. I actually rather like the idea someone suggested that this is
all something that people see in their mind's eye, so to speak (though I
think the suggestion was actually that it is only a 'metaphor', which is
going a bit too far for me). I would include the "white flame" of
Glorfindel and the Eye of Sauron (in Galadriel's Mirror) in this class
of phenomena. You get a glimpse of something not really 'visible' as
such, and what you see is what your mind makes of it, or is prompted to
make of it. A bit like a hallucination or a mirage.

> Does this mean that those clothes had somehow become PART of their
> physical (such as it was) being? Would they have been INCAPABLE of
> removing those invisible clothes? And if not, why would they bother
> to keep them? They don't seem have have served much of a useful
> purpose. Most people wear clothes to A) Protect against the elements,
> and B) Modesty. The Nazgul didn't seem to need them to protect
> themselves and I doubt they would be particularly embaressed by
> running around naked in the Spirit World. Who would care? The other
> Nazgul? Sauron?

I would suppose that when you fade and become a wraith, that you can
still manipulate the physical world and be harmed by certain objects in
the physical world, but you are more 'spirit' than 'physical object'.
This is VERY different to just being invisible by wearing a ring. That
is a temporary process, wheras wraithification was permanent. The ring
wraiths would appear to be men with clothes and crowns, but that is more
the memory of what they were, a memory manifesting as the appearance of
the spirits that Frodo sees.

The later cloaks and crowns and whatnot would just be held in place by
this spirit, and would collapse to the ground when the spirit is
disrupted, much like what happened at Pelennor with the Witch-King.

Christopher

--
---
Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard
Re: Invisible clothes and other things that go bump in the night... [message #152169 ] Sa, 15 Oktober 2005 18:18
Stan Brown  
Dateline Sat, 15 Oct 2005 14:48:52 GMT from Christopher Kreuzer
<spamgard [at] blueyonder.co.uk>:
> Possibly. I actually rather like the idea someone suggested that this is
> all something that people see in their mind's eye, so to speak (though I
> think the suggestion was actually that it is only a 'metaphor', which is
> going a bit too far for me). I would include the "white flame" of
> Glorfindel and the Eye of Sauron (in Galadriel's Mirror) in this class
> of phenomena.

I would include the "with other vision" that Sam had on Mount Doom.

--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA
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Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site)
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Re: Invisible clothes and other things that go bump in the night... [message #152173 ] Sa, 15 Oktober 2005 22:13
Graham Lockwood  
On Sat, 15 Oct 2005 09:48:52 -0500, Christopher Kreuzer wrote
> Graham Lockwood <g-ng [at] yeehawgroups.com> wrote:
{snip}
>> Does this mean that those clothes had somehow become PART of their
>> physical (such as it was) being? Would they have been INCAPABLE of
>> removing those invisible clothes? And if not, why would they bother
>> to keep them? They don't seem have have served much of a useful
>> purpose. Most people wear clothes to A) Protect against the elements,
>> and B) Modesty. The Nazgul didn't seem to need them to protect
>> themselves and I doubt they would be particularly embaressed by
>> running around naked in the Spirit World. Who would care? The other
>> Nazgul? Sauron?
>
> I would suppose that when you fade and become a wraith, that you can
> still manipulate the physical world and be harmed by certain objects in
> the physical world, but you are more 'spirit' than 'physical object'.
> This is VERY different to just being invisible by wearing a ring. That
> is a temporary process, wheras wraithification was permanent. The ring
> wraiths would appear to be men with clothes and crowns, but that is more
> the memory of what they were, a memory manifesting as the appearance of
> the spirits that Frodo sees.
{snip}

Which is more or less what I meant. The invisible clothes may not be
"physical", per se, but then neither are the Nazgul's invisible bodies.



---
Graham
Re: Invisible clothes and other things that go bump in the night... [message #152204 ] Mo, 17 Oktober 2005 13:20
onq  
Graham Lockwood wrote:
>
> On Sat, 15 Oct 2005 09:48:52 -0500, Christopher Kreuzer wrote
> > Graham Lockwood <g-ng [at] yeehawgroups.com> wrote:
> {snip}
> >> Does this mean that those clothes had somehow become PART of their
> >> physical (such as it was) being? Would they have been INCAPABLE of
> >> removing those invisible clothes? And if not, why would they bother
> >> to keep them? They don't seem have have served much of a useful
> >> purpose. Most people wear clothes to A) Protect against the elements,
> >> and B) Modesty. The Nazgul didn't seem to need them to protect
> >> themselves and I doubt they would be particularly embaressed by
> >> running around naked in the Spirit World. Who would care? The other
> >> Nazgul? Sauron?
> >
> > I would suppose that when you fade and become a wraith, that you can
> > still manipulate the physical world and be harmed by certain objects in
> > the physical world, but you are more 'spirit' than 'physical object'.
> > This is VERY different to just being invisible by wearing a ring. That
> > is a temporary process, wheras wraithification was permanent. The ring
> > wraiths would appear to be men with clothes and crowns, but that is more
> > the memory of what they were, a memory manifesting as the appearance of
> > the spirits that Frodo sees.
> {snip}
>
> Which is more or less what I meant. The invisible clothes may not be
> "physical", per se, but then neither are the Nazgul's invisible bodies.

Well, they are "physical". How else can they "wear" clothes, boots, hold
reins, weild swords, whatever? Psychokinesis?

How could they make those blood curdling screams? Ipod with speakers?

I think we should be told.

This whole "wraith" thing isn't well done at all.

M.
Re: Invisible clothes and other things that go bump in the night... [message #152205 ] Mo, 17 Oktober 2005 13:27
onq  
Christopher Kreuzer wrote:
>
> Graham Lockwood <g-ng [at] yeehawgroups.com> wrote:
> > On Fri, 14 Oct 2005 11:04:34 -0500, stephen [at] nomail.com wrote
> > {snip}
> >> However, at the battle of the Pelennor Fields, the Witch King
> >> was wearing a visible crown. Presumably the crown seen
> >> at Weathertop was the crown he was wearing when he faded,
> >> and so the crown too became permanently invisible. The crown
> >> at Pelennor was something he picked up later in life. Perhaps
> >> he got it from one of the Northern kingdoms.
> >>
> >> What I wonder is, was he wearing the visible crown on top of the
> >> invisible crown or not?
> >
> > I too have wondered this. Perhaps the second crown was circular and
> > wider than the first crown which sat inside of it?
> >
> > I agree that the invisible clothes/crowns/etc. seen by Frodo were
> > most likely the clothes worn by the Nazgul ages ago when they faded.
>
> Possibly. I actually rather like the idea someone suggested that this is
> all something that people see in their mind's eye, so to speak (though I
> think the suggestion was actually that it is only a 'metaphor', which is
> going a bit too far for me). I would include the "white flame" of
> Glorfindel and the Eye of Sauron (in Galadriel's Mirror) in this class
> of phenomena. You get a glimpse of something not really 'visible' as
> such, and what you see is what your mind makes of it, or is prompted to
> make of it. A bit like a hallucination or a mirage.
>
> > Does this mean that those clothes had somehow become PART of their
> > physical (such as it was) being? Would they have been INCAPABLE of
> > removing those invisible clothes? And if not, why would they bother
> > to keep them? They don't seem have have served much of a useful
> > purpose. Most people wear clothes to A) Protect against the elements,
> > and B) Modesty. The Nazgul didn't seem to need them to protect
> > themselves and I doubt they would be particularly embaressed by
> > running around naked in the Spirit World. Who would care? The other
> > Nazgul? Sauron?
>
> I would suppose that when you fade and become a wraith, that you can
> still manipulate the physical world and be harmed by certain objects in
> the physical world, but you are more 'spirit' than 'physical object'.
> This is VERY different to just being invisible by wearing a ring. That
> is a temporary process, wheras wraithification was permanent. The ring
> wraiths would appear to be men with clothes and crowns, but that is more
> the memory of what they were, a memory manifesting as the appearance of
> the spirits that Frodo sees.
>
> The later cloaks and crowns and whatnot would just be held in place by
> this spirit, and would collapse to the ground when the spirit is
> disrupted, much like what happened at Pelennor with the Witch-King.
>
> Christopher
>
> --
> ---
> Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard

I don't think "wraitification" is different from being invisible and I
don't think the Ringwraiths were completely wraiths.

They had all the attributes of corporeal beings, albeit ones who were
protected from physical harm by powerful spells and the sustaining power
of the One Ring.

They could speak, they could wear clothes, they could weiled weapons,
they could ride horses and wear boots.

"Spirits" by definition cannot interact with the physical world, except
through some form of mind over matter. The Nazgul did not exhibit this
trait.

Apart from the terror they weilded, their presence was manifested as if
they were invisible but corporeal beings, not "spirits" of any kind.

Can you show one instance of their description in the LotR where they
exhibited "spirit" characteristics, e.g. flying in the air under their
own power, passing through solid barriers, weapons passing through them
as opposed to harming them? One?

M.
Re: Invisible clothes and other things that go bump in the night... [message #152221 ] Mo, 17 Oktober 2005 18:42
Graham Lockwood  
On Mon, 17 Oct 2005 06:20:11 -0500, Michael O'Neill wrote
(in article <435388EB.359B0A79 [at] bwahahaha.indigo.ie>):

> Graham Lockwood wrote:
>>
>> On Sat, 15 Oct 2005 09:48:52 -0500, Christopher Kreuzer wrote
>>> Graham Lockwood <g-ng [at] yeehawgroups.com> wrote:
>> {snip}
>>>> Does this mean that those clothes had somehow become PART of their
>>>> physical (such as it was) being? Would they have been INCAPABLE of
>>>> removing those invisible clothes? And if not, why would they bother
>>>> to keep them? They don't seem have have served much of a useful
>>>> purpose. Most people wear clothes to A) Protect against the elements,
>>>> and B) Modesty. The Nazgul didn't seem to need them to protect
>>>> themselves and I doubt they would be particularly embaressed by
>>>> running around naked in the Spirit World. Who would care? The other
>>>> Nazgul? Sauron?
>>>
>>> I would suppose that when you fade and become a wraith, that you can
>>> still manipulate the physical world and be harmed by certain objects in
>>> the physical world, but you are more 'spirit' than 'physical object'.
>>> This is VERY different to just being invisible by wearing a ring. That
>>> is a temporary process, wheras wraithification was permanent. The ring
>>> wraiths would appear to be men with clothes and crowns, but that is more
>>> the memory of what they were, a memory manifesting as the appearance of
>>> the spirits that Frodo sees.
>> {snip}
>>
>> Which is more or less what I meant. The invisible clothes may not be
>> "physical", per se, but then neither are the Nazgul's invisible bodies.
>
> Well, they are "physical". How else can they "wear" clothes, boots, hold
> reins, weild swords, whatever? Psychokinesis?
>
> How could they make those blood curdling screams? Ipod with speakers?
>
> I think we should be told.
>
> This whole "wraith" thing isn't well done at all.

While the Nazgul do seem to be able to physically interact with the world
(Tolkien's comment about robes being required for that notwithstanding),
implying that they do in fact have "physical" bodies, they don't seem to be
"physical" in the normal sense. For one thing, they're invisible and seem to
exist in some other dimension/side/reality/whatever. Regardless, I think
their "invisible clothes" are as (non)physical as their bodies. I don't think
that they have "physical" bodies but "non-physical" clothes. That doesn't
make a whole lot of sense to me.



---
Graham
Re: Invisible clothes and other things that go bump in the night... [message #152250 ] Mo, 17 Oktober 2005 23:55
Conrad Dunkerson  
Graham Lockwood wrote:

> While the Nazgul do seem to be able to physically interact with the world
> (Tolkien's comment about robes being required for that notwithstanding),

I've never taken it that way. Tolkien said that the robes gave "shape"
to the Nazgul... not substance. This I read to mean that they were
solid even when 'unclad' and the robes just gave them a visual presence
/ shape... much like the bandages in all those 'invisible man' movies.

> implying that they do in fact have "physical" bodies, they don't seem to be
> "physical" in the normal sense. For one thing, they're invisible and seem to
> exist in some other dimension/side/reality/whatever. Regardless, I think
> their "invisible clothes" are as (non)physical as their bodies. I don't think
> that they have "physical" bodies but "non-physical" clothes. That doesn't
> make a whole lot of sense to me.

I think bodies and clothes are both physically solid. If either WEREN'T
then I would have to wonder how they could even put the clothes on.
Re: Invisible clothes and other things that go bump in the night... [message #152253 ] Di, 18 Oktober 2005 00:42
Graham Lockwood  
On Mon, 17 Oct 2005 16:55:54 -0500, Conrad Dunkerson wrote
(in article <K5V4f.73$fC3.63 [at] trndny01>):

> Graham Lockwood wrote:
>
>> While the Nazgul do seem to be able to physically interact with the world
>> (Tolkien's comment about robes being required for that notwithstanding),
>
> I've never taken it that way. Tolkien said that the robes gave "shape"
> to the Nazgul... not substance. This I read to mean that they were
> solid even when 'unclad' and the robes just gave them a visual presence
> / shape... much like the bandages in all those 'in
{snip}

However, it HAS been taken to mean so by some.



---
Graham
Re: Invisible clothes and other things that go bump in the night... [message #152340 ] Di, 18 Oktober 2005 22:33
Tamf Moo  
Graham Lockwood spoke softly, shivering:

> > What I wonder is, was he wearing the visible crown on top of the invisible
> > crown or not?

> I too have wondered this. Perhaps the second crown was circular and wider
> than the first crown which sat inside of it?

one crown on top of the other! like lego!

is there a LOTR lego set yet?

--
Tamf, lellow dwagin and CHOKLIT-eater at your service.

Why does Karl Marx drink only herbal tea?

Because all proper tea is theft.
Re: Invisible clothes and other things that go bump in the night... [message #152341 ] Di, 18 Oktober 2005 22:44
stephen  
In rec.arts.books.tolkien Tamf Moo <liddlelellow [at] yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> Graham Lockwood spoke softly, shivering:

>> > What I wonder is, was he wearing the visible crown on top of the invisible
>> > crown or not?
>
>> I too have wondered this. Perhaps the second crown was circular and wider
>> than the first crown which sat inside of it?

> one crown on top of the other! like lego!

> is there a LOTR lego set yet?

There is this:
http://www.ozbricks.com/bricktales/lotr/lotrmain.html

Stephen
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