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Fantasy » alt.fan.tolkien » Oral tradition and names fuelling the imagination
Oral tradition and names fuelling the imagination [message #149052] Mi, 12 Oktober 2005 00:51
Christopher Kreuzer  
I've recently been reading books and watching documentaries about the
Trojan War, and the archaeology that uncovered the Bronze Age
civilizations of Greece and Asia Minor. This reminded of a few things
about Tolkien's writings, and prompted me to read something else that
also reminded me very strongly of a passage from Tolkien's writings.

I'll explain what I mean, though I may ramble a bit as well...

======

The documentary was 'In Search of the Trojan War' from the BBC and
presented by Michael Wood. It was made in 1985 and released on DVD
recently. At one point, as he traces the archaeology from Schliemann
onwards, Wood talks about the oral tradition of the Iliad and Odyssey.

I was particularly struck by the concept of 'bardic memory', where it is
thought that the Iliad and Odyssey, though they are probably mostly
layers of fictional accounts, may preserve faint traces of real events
long ago. This was illustrated in the documentary by video clips of
professional storytellers in Armenia, and other places, still telling
stories many hours long, handed down the generations. In the songs,
there are standard phrases and rhymes that help the bards to remember
them, and these parts of the songs may preserve a genuine trace of the
long ago history that inspired the tale.

There was also a fascinating scene where an Irish storyteller (an old
man who had never learnt to read or write) chanted verses of Gaelic that
he had learnt from his grandfather. This historian had been recording
these Gaelic stories for many years, and there were still many stories
to record.

This all reminded me of the Rohirrim and their songs, which are often
said to be telling the history of their people, such as at Theoden's
funeral. This seems to be an oral tradition as well. There is also the
way Tolkien often uses standard phrases in his writings, especially when
he passes into a 'high' style, such as seen in 'The Silmarillion'.

What I was wondering, was how much Tolkien would have dealt with oral
traditions in his professional work with languages and the history of
languages? And whether this is reflected in any of his writings?

======

The second bit of this post, "names fuelling the imagination", concerns
a bit I read during a re-reading of a book called 'The Tale of Troy',
which is a retelling (published in 1958) by Roger Lancelyn Green of the
tale of Troy "retold from the ancient authors".

The retellings by Roger Lancelyn Green of 'The Greek Myths', 'Tales of
Ancient Egypt' and 'Tales of the Norsemen' were my first introductions,
when I was growing up, to the ancient myths and legends of some of the
world's civilisations.

Though I did later read translations of the Iliad and the Odyssey, this
retelling by Roger Lancelyn Green was the first time I read about the
legend of Troy, and the documentary, that I mentioned above in the first
part of this post, prompted me to re-read the story again.

The Tolkien connection comes at the end, when Roger Lancelyn Green gives
a brief account of some of his ancient sources. He then also mentions
the two authors that he dedicated the book to: Rider Haggard and Andrew
Lang. The dedication explains that they produced the work that inspired
Roger Lancelyn Green to study Greek legend and literature, namely /The
World's Desire/ (published in 1890). This was produced as a 'sequel' to
the Odyssey, and I am now wondering if Tolkien knew of this work, or had
read it. This whole idea of retelling ancient myths certainly seems to
be relevant to Tolkien's desire to weave a mythology of his own, and I
know that Tolkien had read Rider Haggard (he mentions him in /Letters/ I
believe), and Andrew Lang is mentioned in /On Fairy Stories/. I wonder
if Tolkien had also read /The World's Desire/?

We also know that Tolkien did study Classics at school (as everyone did
in those days), and Classics was what he initially studied at Oxford
University. I've also been reading a book that looks more closely at the
influence of the Classical (southern) tradition on Tolkien, as opposed
to the oft-studied Germanic (northern) tradition (the book is 'The
Forsaken Realm of Tolkien' by Alex Lewis and Elizabeth Currie). Which
explains why I'm now wondering if Tolkien was in any way inspired by
retellings of Classical tales, like those retellings by Rider Haggard
and Lang.

But, finally reaching the point, the passage with a really strong
Tolkien connection was at the end of Roger Lancelyn Green's 'Author's
Note' at the end of his retelling of 'the tale of Troy divine' (to quote
Milton). In this passage, Green explains why he decided to mostly use
the Greek, instead of Roman names (even though the Roman names might be
more familiar) for gods like Zeus, Athena, Aphrodite, and for heroes
like Odysseus:

"...the true Greek names fling wide the magic casements on the instant.
Led by them we step directly back into the Heroic Age, into the bright,
misty morning of legend and literature,

And hear, like ocean on a western beach,
The surge and thunder of the Odyssey.

Roger Lancelyn Green" (The Tale of Troy)

This passage, as well as reminding me of the way that Tolkien made names
and language central to his storytelling, also reminded me of a passage
from /The Lord of the Rings/ where the metaphor of stepping through a
window is also used:

"...Frodo stood awhile still lost in wonder. It seemed to him that he
had stepped through a high window that looked on a vanished world. A
light was upon it for which his language had no name." (Lothlorien, The
Lord of the Rings, J.R.R. Tolkien)

Both Tolkien and Green use the metaphor of stepping through a window,
and both comment on the difference in the light ("bright misty morning"
and "a light was upon it").

And in a later passage, Tolkien also uses the image of waves upon a
beach:

"Frodo stood still, hearing far off, great seas upon beaches that had
long ago been washed away, and sea-birds crying whose race had perished
from the earth." (Lothlorien, The Lord of the Rings, J.R.R. Tolkien)

This is similar to the verse stanza that Green uses to close his
commentary (the "ocean on a western beach" and "surge and thunder"
bits).

The similarities in the metaphors used are striking. It looks like both
authors are tapping into a rich vein of mythology and images of a past
Golden Age.

Christopher

--
---
Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard
Re: Oral tradition and names fuelling the imagination [message #149054 ] Mi, 12 Oktober 2005 02:02
Christopher Kreuzer  
Christopher Kreuzer <spamgard [at] blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

<sniiip>

[Some stuff about Roger Lancelyn Green]

I was inspired to go and read up about Roger Lancelyn Green, and found
this on Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_Lancelyn_Green

[see also the entry for his son, Richard Lancelyn Green]

Roger Lancelyn Green was born in 1918, and died in 1987. Interestingly,
he wrote biographies of Andrew Lang and C.S. Lewis, and was Deputy
Librarian of Merton College, Oxford, from 1945-1950. So I guess it is
possible that he knew Lewis and maybe even Tolkien. Or knew of them, at
least. And he was in Oxford during part of the time that Tolkien was
writing /The Lord of the Rings/, or at least the final pages of /The
Lord of the Rings/.

Roger Lancelyn Green was also Andrew Lang lecturer in 1968, which was 29
years after Tolkien gave his lecture in 1939 (the famous 'On
Fairy-stories'). It would be interesting to know whether Green was aware
of that earlier lecture, and also what Green talked about.

Christopher

--
---
Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard
Re: Oral tradition and names fuelling the imagination [message #149056 ] Mi, 12 Oktober 2005 02:11
donnellaf  
Christopher Kreuzer wrote:

<Snip oral tradition discussion>

This is interesting, and recalls to me a paper I recently read about a
similar study, but in small "backwards" Middle Eastern villages. The
researchers studied the transmission of oral history through the
village, and found similar standard phrases which aided the retention
in, essentially, a word for word manner. They also found that most of
the people in the village, besides the chief storyteller (usually one of
the elders), also knew the stories word for word, and that this helped
reinforce the accurate transmission. The stories were often recounted
in daily life--they were eager to tell their stories when the
opportunity arose (for example, as the community-oriented people all sat
around the campfire with a visitor), and whenever an error arose, it was
rapidly corrected by the audience, since most of them knew how the story
was supposed to go.

They also found that the stories were codified quickly. The story of an
important occurrance would be cast into its "official" form quite
rapidly, and it remained constant over whatever the time period of the
study was (I don't recall).

It was quite interesting, and I think modern people are too quick to
dismiss the integrity of oral tradition. In this society, where we
don't actually need to remember much, since all the information we want
is a few mouse clicks away, we don't remember much. But not all people
are like us, and some societies place a much higher premium on the memory.


Andy
Re: Oral tradition and names fuelling the imagination [message #149058 ] Mi, 12 Oktober 2005 03:10
Christopher Kreuzer  
Christopher Kreuzer <spamgard [at] blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
> Christopher Kreuzer <spamgard [at] blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>
> <sniiip>
>
> [Some stuff about Roger Lancelyn Green]

<snip>

> Roger Lancelyn Green was also Andrew Lang lecturer in 1968, which was
> 29 years after Tolkien gave his lecture in 1939 (the famous 'On
> Fairy-stories'). It would be interesting to know whether Green was
> aware of that earlier lecture, and also what Green talked about.

Unfortunately, I couldn't find the Andrew Lang lectures online, or
indeed any indication that they are preserved for posterity. I did find
out a bit more about /The World's Desire/ though, and I'd now like to
add this story to the list of pre-Tolkien fantasy that people might find
interesting.

And a Google search for "the world's desire" + "lang" + "haggard" +
"tolkien" managed to throw up three interesting websites:

http://www.ddgbooks.com/ddg0731.htm

A brief discussion of fantasy before and after Tolkien.

http://home.epix.net/~wallison/bafs.html

A listing of books from the Ballantine Adult Fantsy series; books that
are worth looking at if you see any copies around.

http://www.cs.duke.edu/~lipyeow/DaleNelson/on_fairy_stories. html

And an interesting discussion list for /On Fairy-stories/.

Christopher

--
---
Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard
Re: Oral tradition and names fuelling the imagination [message #149064 ] Mi, 12 Oktober 2005 06:02
Count Menelvagor  
Christopher Kreuzer wrote:

> This all reminded me of the Rohirrim and their songs, which are often
> said to be telling the history of their people, such as at Theoden's
> funeral. This seems to be an oral tradition as well. There is also the
> way Tolkien often uses standard phrases in his writings, especially when
> he passes into a 'high' style, such as seen in 'The Silmarillion'.

aragorn says at 1 point that the rohirrim write no books but sing many
songs. (singing is a common way to both remembr the past and prophesy
the future in tolkien's writings.) there's alloso tolkien's penchant
for recording more than one version of the storiies of middle-earth;
perhaps this is partly in imitation of oral literature (as well as a
way of teating his subjects from different angles).


> This passage, as well as reminding me of the way that Tolkien made names
> and language central to his storytelling, also reminded me of a passage
> from /The Lord of the Rings/ where the metaphor of stepping through a
> window is also used:
>
> "...Frodo stood awhile still lost in wonder. It seemed to him that he
> had stepped through a high window that looked on a vanished world. A
> light was upon it for which his language had no name." (Lothlorien, The
> Lord of the Rings, J.R.R. Tolkien)

now i'm reminded of the passage where frodo becomes rapt upon listening
to the elves singing in rivendell.
Re: Oral tradition and names fuelling the imagination [message #149065 ] Mi, 12 Oktober 2005 06:08
Steve Morrison  
Christopher Kreuzer wrote:

> I was inspired to go and read up about Roger Lancelyn Green, and found
> this on Wikipedia:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_Lancelyn_Green
>
> [see also the entry for his son, Richard Lancelyn Green]
>
> Roger Lancelyn Green was born in 1918, and died in 1987. Interestingly,
> he wrote biographies of Andrew Lang and C.S. Lewis, and was Deputy
> Librarian of Merton College, Oxford, from 1945-1950. So I guess it is
> possible that he knew Lewis and maybe even Tolkien. Or knew of them, at
> least. And he was in Oxford during part of the time that Tolkien was
> writing /The Lord of the Rings/, or at least the final pages of /The
> Lord of the Rings/.
>
> Roger Lancelyn Green was also Andrew Lang lecturer in 1968, which was 29
> years after Tolkien gave his lecture in 1939 (the famous 'On
> Fairy-stories'). It would be interesting to know whether Green was aware
> of that earlier lecture, and also what Green talked about.
>

Green was an old friend of both Lewis and Tolkien. In fact, Letters
#299, #319, and #325 (which see) were all written to him.
Re: Oral tradition and names fuelling the imagination [message #149070 ] Mi, 12 Oktober 2005 16:35
onq  
Christopher Kreuzer wrote:
>
> I've recently been reading books and watching documentaries about the
> Trojan War, and the archaeology that uncovered the Bronze Age
> civilizations of Greece and Asia Minor. This reminded of a few things
> about Tolkien's writings, and prompted me to read something else that
> also reminded me very strongly of a passage from Tolkien's writings.

<snip>

I don't think you have to go far to find a rich oral tradition.

Celtic Ireland has a wealth of stories and cycles from which to draw
inspiration.

I think it was Tolkien's perception of England's relative lack or
prehistoric traditions that inspired him to go so far with the LoTR and
its Backhistory, the Hobbit and the Silmarillion.

England's lack was partly due to its Roman conquest and colonization and
later successful invasions, conquest and settlement by Saxons and Normans
that uprooted its Celtic heritage.

Ireland has never been wholly conquered or held entire nor indeed its
catholic culture stripped away by an indigenous religion under the
control of a monarchy.

It has of course assimilated many visitors to these shores, but
thankfully they never came in large numbers and so culture shock has been
less than that experienced by Multi-Racial Britain, arguably the final
nail in the coffin of Britain's Celtic heritage.

We do things differently. We don't see invaders as enemies, per se. Not
these days. New partners, new adversaries, new competition.

Sure we'd be bored otherwise.

As for the greeks, well, not all the blond sallow skinned Irish can trace
their roots back to Scandinavia. Read some background to the Book of
Invasions and you'll see we have a bit of Greek royalty in there too.

LOL!


M.
Re: Oral tradition and names fuelling the imagination [message #168249 ] Di, 15 November 2005 23:37
Larry Swain  
Sorry for the delays, just finally getting to this thread.

Michael O'Neill wrote:
> Christopher Kreuzer wrote:
>
>>I've recently been reading books and watching documentaries about the
>>Trojan War, and the archaeology that uncovered the Bronze Age
>>civilizations of Greece and Asia Minor. This reminded of a few things
>>about Tolkien's writings, and prompted me to read something else that
>>also reminded me very strongly of a passage from Tolkien's writings.
>
>
> <snip>
>
> I don't think you have to go far to find a rich oral tradition.
>
> Celtic Ireland has a wealth of stories and cycles from which to draw
> inspiration.
>
> I think it was Tolkien's perception of England's relative lack or
> prehistoric traditions that inspired him to go so far with the LoTR and
> its Backhistory, the Hobbit and the Silmarillion.
>
> England's lack was partly due to its Roman conquest and colonization and
> later successful invasions, conquest and settlement by Saxons and Normans
> that uprooted its Celtic heritage.

Uh, no. England's lack is largely due to 2 factors: the Viking
destruction of monasteries where such tales were written down followed
by a period of unrest and instability, reconquest, and then conquered
again by William. Nothing to do with the Romans.
>

> As for the greeks, well, not all the blond sallow skinned Irish can trace
> their roots back to Scandinavia. Read some background to the Book of
> Invasions and you'll see we have a bit of Greek royalty in there too.

So the myth claims, but then it is claimed that the English crown is
directly linked to Aeneas, and through him of course to Troy. Doesn't
mean it has any historical truth to ie.
Re: Oral tradition and names fuelling the imagination [message #168250 ] Di, 15 November 2005 23:43
Larry Swain  
Andrew F. Donnell wrote:
> Christopher Kreuzer wrote:
>
> <Snip oral tradition discussion>
>
> This is interesting, and recalls to me a paper I recently read about a
> similar study, but in small "backwards" Middle Eastern villages. The
> researchers studied the transmission of oral history through the
> village, and found similar standard phrases which aided the retention
> in, essentially, a word for word manner. They also found that most of
> the people in the village, besides the chief storyteller (usually one of
> the elders), also knew the stories word for word, and that this helped
> reinforce the accurate transmission. The stories were often recounted
> in daily life--they were eager to tell their stories when the
> opportunity arose (for example, as the community-oriented people all sat
> around the campfire with a visitor), and whenever an error arose, it was
> rapidly corrected by the audience, since most of them knew how the story
> was supposed to go.

Yes, there has been some discussion of this paper, a couple years back,
in biblical studies circles. I'm inclined to give it greater credence,
but a number of scholars have questioned it. There have also been some
reactions published. Remind me next month and I'll see if I can dig
them up.
Re: Oral tradition and names fuelling the imagination [message #168255 ] Mi, 16 November 2005 02:43
Noh Phu Ling  
Larry Swain wrote:

> Uh, no. England's lack is largely due to 2 factors: the Viking
> destruction of monasteries where such tales were written down followed
> by a period of unrest and instability, reconquest, and then conquered
> again by William. Nothing to do with the Romans.

Do not underestimate the "cleansings" by Oliver Cromwell & other
like-minded purists. (Here, 'cleansings' is my word, not Cromwell's.
But, from the viewpoint of an historian or archaeologist, Cromwell was
as ruthless and barbaric as anyone who swept in off the steppes of Asia.)

Pete H

--
The universe is largely unexplored.
NPR News item
Re: Oral tradition and names fuelling the imagination [message #168256 ] Mi, 16 November 2005 06:30
Larry Swain  
Christopher Kreuzer wrote:
> I've recently been reading books and watching documentaries about the
> Trojan War, and the archaeology that uncovered the Bronze Age
> civilizations of Greece and Asia Minor. This reminded of a few things
> about Tolkien's writings, and prompted me to read something else that
> also reminded me very strongly of a passage from Tolkien's writings.
>
> I'll explain what I mean, though I may ramble a bit as well...
>
> ======
>
> The documentary was 'In Search of the Trojan War' from the BBC and
> presented by Michael Wood. It was made in 1985 and released on DVD
> recently. At one point, as he traces the archaeology from Schliemann
> onwards, Wood talks about the oral tradition of the Iliad and Odyssey.
>
> I was particularly struck by the concept of 'bardic memory', where it is
> thought that the Iliad and Odyssey, though they are probably mostly
> layers of fictional accounts, may preserve faint traces of real events
> long ago. This was illustrated in the documentary by video clips of
> professional storytellers in Armenia, and other places, still telling
> stories many hours long, handed down the generations. In the songs,
> there are standard phrases and rhymes that help the bards to remember
> them, and these parts of the songs may preserve a genuine trace of the
> long ago history that inspired the tale.
>
> There was also a fascinating scene where an Irish storyteller (an old
> man who had never learnt to read or write) chanted verses of Gaelic that
> he had learnt from his grandfather. This historian had been recording
> these Gaelic stories for many years, and there were still many stories
> to record.
>
> This all reminded me of the Rohirrim and their songs, which are often
> said to be telling the history of their people, such as at Theoden's
> funeral. This seems to be an oral tradition as well. There is also the
> way Tolkien often uses standard phrases in his writings, especially when
> he passes into a 'high' style, such as seen in 'The Silmarillion'.
>
> What I was wondering, was how much Tolkien would have dealt with oral
> traditions in his professional work with languages and the history of
> languages? And whether this is reflected in any of his writings?

I didn't really see if this was addressed in the thread, so if I'm
repeating stuff, hopefully folks will be patient. Anyway, the question
of the oral poet is a huge one whether dealing with Classical literature
or medieval. The issue of orality and oral literature was big stuff in
the 20s and 30s, culminating in the 1960 with Lord's Singer of Tales and
about a decade later Walter Ong's Orality and Literacy. Its still hot
stuff in medieval literature.

There are many references in our works to oral poets, whether talking
about the Odyssey (remember that Odysseus sings his tale in bks 9-10, a
point I'll return to) or Beowulf or the sagas to the Minnesinger
traditions, the oral poet/bard was an important fixture.

I could go on and on, but won't, unless you really want to know more.
But in Tolkien we see this oral bardic tradition quite active in several
places. You mention the Rohirrim and that's a good one. There is also
the scene in Elrond's house in "Many Partings" in which great tales are
sung....these are probably not written down but from TOlkien's
descriptions are oral songs of deeds. Aragorn, Gimli, and Legolas each
have a go at singing a tale at some point in the LoTR narrative. The
Ents oral memory seems to be part of this as well. Last, and most
important of all, is Sam. At first, he seems to be a satire on the
tradition with his song about his "nuncle", but later when he and Frodo
are in Moria and Sam reflects more than once about the songs and whether
their deeds in fact will be mentioned in song after they are dead, and
then realizes that they've been caught up in one of the tales after all.
In The HObbit we of course have the dwarves singing after dinner many
songs besides the one recorded.

The scene in Elrond's house strikes me as rather like the scene in the
Odyssey...a large room with a fire and song after dinner (though I
suppose it could just as easily be Beowulf with a similar scene). The
songs of the Rohirrim that we have are directly modeled (and in some
cases barely covered) on Old English and Old NOrse "songs" and
poems--that is are fictional songs modeled on what TOlkien knew were
real world oral songs that just happened to be written down by accident
and chance. While he does not mention song or poetry, Ghan buri Ghan
invokes oral memory of the Dark Years. So to answer the question, yes, I
think there is a great deal of orality mentioned in LoTR betraying the
influence of TOlkien's scholarship on his fiction.


>
> ======
>
> The second bit of this post, "names fuelling the imagination", concerns
> a bit I read during a re-reading of a book called 'The Tale of Troy',
> which is a retelling (published in 1958) by Roger Lancelyn Green of the
> tale of Troy "retold from the ancient authors".
>
> The retellings by Roger Lancelyn Green of 'The Greek Myths', 'Tales of
> Ancient Egypt' and 'Tales of the Norsemen' were my first introductions,
> when I was growing up, to the ancient myths and legends of some of the
> world's civilisations.
>
> Though I did later read translations of the Iliad and the Odyssey, this
> retelling by Roger Lancelyn Green was the first time I read about the
> legend of Troy, and the documentary, that I mentioned above in the first
> part of this post, prompted me to re-read the story again.
>
> The Tolkien connection comes at the end, when Roger Lancelyn Green gives
> a brief account of some of his ancient sources. He then also mentions
> the two authors that he dedicated the book to: Rider Haggard and Andrew
> Lang. The dedication explains that they produced the work that inspired
> Roger Lancelyn Green to study Greek legend and literature, namely /The
> World's Desire/ (published in 1890). This was produced as a 'sequel' to
> the Odyssey, and I am now wondering if Tolkien knew of this work, or had
> read it. This whole idea of retelling ancient myths certainly seems to
> be relevant to Tolkien's desire to weave a mythology of his own, and I
> know that Tolkien had read Rider Haggard (he mentions him in /Letters/ I
> believe), and Andrew Lang is mentioned in /On Fairy Stories/. I wonder
> if Tolkien had also read /The World's Desire/?
>
> We also know that Tolkien did study Classics at school (as everyone did
> in those days), and Classics was what he initially studied at Oxford
> University. I've also been reading a book that looks more closely at the
> influence of the Classical (southern) tradition on Tolkien, as opposed
> to the oft-studied Germanic (northern) tradition (the book is 'The
> Forsaken Realm of Tolkien' by Alex Lewis and Elizabeth Currie). Which
> explains why I'm now wondering if Tolkien was in any way inspired by
> retellings of Classical tales, like those retellings by Rider Haggard
> and Lang.

I'd say yes, but that he was just as influenced by the tales themselves
which as a school boy he would have had to translate from the originals
in many cases.
Re: Oral tradition and names fuelling the imagination [message #168260 ] Mi, 16 November 2005 06:37
Larry Swain  
Noh Phu Ling wrote:
> Larry Swain wrote:
>
>> Uh, no. England's lack is largely due to 2 factors: the Viking
>> destruction of monasteries where such tales were written down followed
>> by a period of unrest and instability, reconquest, and then conquered
>> again by William. Nothing to do with the Romans.
>
>
> Do not underestimate the "cleansings" by Oliver Cromwell & other
> like-minded purists. (Here, 'cleansings' is my word, not Cromwell's.
> But, from the viewpoint of an historian or archaeologist, Cromwell was
> as ruthless and barbaric as anyone who swept in off the steppes of Asia.)
>
> Pete H
>

I neglected to mention the other factor: the dissolution of monasteries
by Henry VIII, whatever had been preserved was lucky to make it through
the Dissolution, we have no idea how much we've lost, but we feeel it
must have been great.

I don't know of any cases where Cromwell burned or destroyed
manuscripts, though I agree with your assessment.
Re: Oral tradition and names fuelling the imagination [message #168261 ] Mi, 16 November 2005 10:57
Robert Kolker  
Noh Phu Ling wrote:

>
> Do not underestimate the "cleansings" by Oliver Cromwell & other
> like-minded purists. (Here, 'cleansings' is my word, not Cromwell's.
> But, from the viewpoint of an historian or archaeologist, Cromwell was
> as ruthless and barbaric as anyone who swept in off the steppes of Asia.)

That he was, but I forgive him because he made it possible for Jews to
return to England, live there and prosper. Destruction of artifacts was
a side effect of curing England of the Catholic disease. Without
Cromwell, England would have been another Spain.

Bob Kolker
Re: Oral tradition and names fuelling the imagination [message #168263 ] Mi, 16 November 2005 15:05
Noh Phu Ling  
Larry Swain wrote:

>
> I don't know of any cases where Cromwell burned or destroyed
> manuscripts, though I agree with your assessment.

I don't recall that he went after manuscripts per. se., but he was quite
ruthless in his treatment of much church-related property. Anything
"popish" was the work of the devil if not worse. A great deal of
historical & archaeological matter must have gotten ground under because
of Cromwell.

Pete H

--
The universe is largely unexplored.
NPR News item
Re: Oral tradition and names fuelling the imagination [message #168264 ] Mi, 16 November 2005 15:06
Noh Phu Ling  
Robert J. Kolker wrote:

> . Without Cromwell, England would have been another Spain.

That would give an entirely new dimension to the Ministry of Silly Walks.

Pete H

--
The universe is largely unexplored.
NPR News item
Re: Oral tradition and names fuelling the imagination [message #168266 ] Mi, 16 November 2005 18:50
Jette Goldie  
"Larry Swain" <theswain [at] operamail.com> wrote in message
news:ldidndyTKsQ9WOfeRVn-oA [at] rcn.net...
> Noh Phu Ling wrote:
>> Larry Swain wrote:
>>
>>> Uh, no. England's lack is largely due to 2 factors: the Viking
>>> destruction of monasteries where such tales were written down followed
>>> by a period of unrest and instability, reconquest, and then conquered
>>> again by William. Nothing to do with the Romans.
>>
>>
>> Do not underestimate the "cleansings" by Oliver Cromwell & other
>> like-minded purists. (Here, 'cleansings' is my word, not Cromwell's. But,
>> from the viewpoint of an historian or archaeologist, Cromwell was as
>> ruthless and barbaric as anyone who swept in off the steppes of Asia.)
>>
>> Pete H
>>
>
> I neglected to mention the other factor: the dissolution of monasteries by
> Henry VIII, whatever had been preserved was lucky to make it through the
> Dissolution, we have no idea how much we've lost, but we feeel it must
> have been great.
>
> I don't know of any cases where Cromwell burned or destroyed manuscripts,
> though I agree with your assessment.

He banned Christmas!!!!!!!


--
Jette Goldie
jette [at] blueyonder.co.uk
Re: Oral tradition and names fuelling the imagination [message #168269 ] Mi, 16 November 2005 21:24
Larry Swain  
Noh Phu Ling wrote:
> Larry Swain wrote:
>
>>
>> I don't know of any cases where Cromwell burned or destroyed
>> manuscripts, though I agree with your assessment.
>
>
> I don't recall that he went after manuscripts per. se., but he was quite
> ruthless in his treatment of much church-related property. Anything
> "popish" was the work of the devil if not worse. A great deal of
> historical & archaeological matter must have gotten ground under because
> of Cromwell.
>
> Pete H
>
True, if anything was left after the Dissolution.
Re: Oral tradition and names fuelling the imagination [message #168275 ] Do, 17 November 2005 01:40
donnellaf  
Larry Swain wrote:
> Andrew F. Donnell wrote:
>
>>This is interesting, and recalls to me a paper I recently read about a
>>similar study, but in small "backwards" Middle Eastern villages. The
>>researchers studied the transmission of oral history through the
>>village, and found similar standard phrases which aided the retention
>>in, essentially, a word for word manner. They also found that most of
>>the people in the village, besides the chief storyteller (usually one of
>>the elders), also knew the stories word for word, and that this helped
>>reinforce the accurate transmission. The stories were often recounted
>>in daily life--they were eager to tell their stories when the
>>opportunity arose (for example, as the community-oriented people all sat
>>around the campfire with a visitor), and whenever an error arose, it was
>>rapidly corrected by the audience, since most of them knew how the story
>>was supposed to go.
>
>
> Yes, there has been some discussion of this paper, a couple years back,
> in biblical studies circles. I'm inclined to give it greater credence,
> but a number of scholars have questioned it. There have also been some
> reactions published. Remind me next month and I'll see if I can dig
> them up.

It would be interesting to see how this idea has been received. I found
it quite convincing and am sold on it. The author is Kenneth E. Bailey,
to be sure that we're on the same page (as I'm not sure how accurate my
rough paraphrase is).

[Changing gears:]

I originally came across that paper after I read a couple of his papers
about the birth narrative of Jesus (specifically one that comes from
_Near East School of Theology Theological Review_, v. 2, n. 2, 1979),
where he rejects the traditional sentimentalized version where the holy
couple is turned out of an inn and into a lonely stable. Instead, he
thinks a more accurate translation, and one better keeping with the
cultural situation, has the birth taking place in a peasant house amid a
crowd of villagers. Firstly, there probably wasn't a commercial inn in
Bethlehem, and the word we often see translated as inn could just as
well be guest room. It is known that there were a number of peasant
homes with guest rooms. These homes also contained stables, as the main
room was split between the living area and the animal area (since who,
afterall, wouldn't bring their livestock inside at night?). Joseph, a
long lost relative, would have been welcomed with open arms by just
about anyone in town, especially as he has a pregnant wife. They are
given fairly decent accommodations in the main room of one of these
houses, where the birth is properly attended to by local women who would
have gathered around for the happy event.

This is in stark contrast to the oh-so-common western view we see in
nativity displays where the holy family are alone, cast out by their
relations, into a cold dark stable. I found Bailey's view quite
convincing, and it makes a lot more sense reading the text from that
framework. But I've never really heard anyone else espouse this, so I
don't know if the scholarship just doesn't fly, or if it is just that
this iconic picture is so entrenched in our mental image of the text
that we can't help but see it that way.

I apologize that I've gone completely off on a tangent, but it is
something I found quite interesting, and I'm sure I haven't explained it
as cogently as I ought to have.

Andy
Re: Oral tradition and names fuelling the imagination [message #168276 ] Do, 17 November 2005 02:40
Noh Phu Ling  
Andrew F. Donnell wrote:

> These homes also contained stables, as the main room was split
> between the living area and the animal area (since who, afterall,
> wouldn't bring their livestock inside at night?).

This general arrangement is common to many places even today.

>
>
> This is in stark contrast to the oh-so-common western view we see in
> nativity displays where the holy family are alone, cast out by their
> relations, into a cold dark stable. I found Bailey's view quite
> convincing, and it makes a lot more sense reading the text from that
> framework. But I've never really heard anyone else espouse this, so I
> don't know if the scholarship just doesn't fly, or if it is just that
> this iconic picture is so entrenched in our mental image of the text
> that we can't help but see it that way.

Another aspect of your "tangent" is that the canmonical gospels (as well
as apochryphal ) vary widely in their "details" to the point where there
is far more divergence than agreement.

Pete H


--
The universe is largely unexplored.
NPR News item
Re: Oral tradition and names fuelling the imagination [message #168277 ] Do, 17 November 2005 03:42
donnellaf  
Noh Phu Ling wrote:
> Andrew F. Donnell wrote:

<snip>

>>This is in stark contrast to the oh-so-common western view we see in
>>nativity displays where the holy family are alone, cast out by their
>>relations, into a cold dark stable. I found Bailey's view quite
>>convincing, and it makes a lot more sense reading the text from that
>>framework. But I've never really heard anyone else espouse this, so I
>>don't know if the scholarship just doesn't fly, or if it is just that
>>this iconic picture is so entrenched in our mental image of the text
>>that we can't help but see it that way.
>
>
> Another aspect of your "tangent" is that the canmonical gospels (as well
> as apochryphal ) vary widely in their "details" to the point where there
> is far more divergence than agreement.

Um, the birth narratives, at least among the canonical gospels, don't
really have *any* divergence, because neither of them is telling the
same story. Only Matthew and Luke mention the birth, and they are not
two parallel accounts of one story, but two completely separate stories
that don't really overlap, so there are no details to compare. Unless
you are talking about Luke's "After they did everything required by the
Law of the Lord they returned to Nazareth" as not jiving with Matthew's
jaunt to Egypt. I don't really have a problem with that though, since
it is basically Luke's way of fast-forwarding to the next story he wants
to recount, and isn't ruling out any other travels they may have had.


Maybe one of these days I'll post something about Tolkien again....

Andy
Re: Oral tradition and names fuelling the imagination [message #168289 ] Do, 17 November 2005 20:51
Larry Swain  
Andrew F. Donnell wrote:
> Larry Swain wrote:
>
>>
>> Yes, there has been some discussion of this paper, a couple years
>> back, in biblical studies circles. I'm inclined to give it greater
>> credence, but a number of scholars have questioned it. There have
>> also been some reactions published. Remind me next month and I'll see
>> if I can dig them up.
>
>
> It would be interesting to see how this idea has been received. I found
> it quite convincing and am sold on it. The author is Kenneth E. Bailey,
> to be sure that we're on the same page (as I'm not sure how accurate my
> rough paraphrase is).

Yes, Bailey, was having trouble recalling that. Go to Yahoo Groups and
look up CrossTalk or Xtalk; I think the archives are open, and search on
Bailey and it will give you some idea of how it has been received.
Generally more conservative commentators welcome Bailey's paper, more
liberal commentators find fault with it.


> [Changing gears:]
>
> I originally came across that paper after I read a couple of his papers
> about the birth narrative of Jesus (specifically one that comes from
> _Near East School of Theology Theological Review_, v. 2, n. 2, 1979),

I'd like to read these sometime, do you have both references?

>
Re: Oral tradition and names fuelling the imagination [message #168321 ] So, 20 November 2005 13:16
Tamf Moo  
Noh Phu Ling spoke softly, shivering:

> > . Without Cromwell, England would have been another Spain.
>
> That would give an entirely new dimension to the Ministry of Silly Walks.

*nobody* expects a silly walk?

--
Tamf, lellow dwagin and CHOKLIT-eater at your service.

Pepsi and Sierra Mist, potato chips, burritos,
Nachos fit for salsa dip, cheezos and tostitos,
Roasted peanuts too we have, of any beer shall drink ye,
Junk food brought from Bree-way, from Rivendell a twinkie.
(E-Tom Bombadil)
Re: Oral tradition and names fuelling the imagination [message #168327 ] So, 20 November 2005 15:03
Noh Phu Ling  
Tamf Moo wrote:

>Noh Phu Ling spoke softly, shivering:
>
>
>
>>>. Without Cromwell, England would have been another Spain.
>>>
>>>
>>That would give an entirely new dimension to the Ministry of Silly Walks.
>>
>>
>
>*nobody* expects a silly walk?
>
>
>
My flight of fancy was based on Monty Python developing in a
quasi-Iberian culture.

Pete H

--
The universe is largely unexplored.
NPR News item
Re: Oral tradition and names fuelling the imagination [message #177023 ] Di, 29 November 2005 06:05
donnellaf  
A while ago (I was on vacation), Larry Swain wrote:

> Andrew F. Donnell wrote:

<About Kenneth Bailey, middle eastern oral tradition>

> Yes, Bailey, was having trouble recalling that. Go to Yahoo Groups
> and look up CrossTalk or Xtalk; I think the archives are open, and
> search on Bailey and it will give you some idea of how it has been
> received. Generally more conservative commentators welcome Bailey's
> paper, more liberal commentators find fault with it.

Thanks! I'll look into it.

>>[Changing gears:]
>>
>>I originally came across that paper after I read a couple of his
>>papers about the birth narrative of Jesus (specifically one that comes
>>from _Near East School of Theology Theological Review_, v. 2, n. 2,
>>1979),
>
>
> I'd like to read these sometime, do you have both references?

The major one is:

--Kenneth E. Bailey. The Manger and the Inn: The Cultural Background of
Luke 2:7. Theological Review (Near East School of Theology). 1979, 2(2),
33-44.

It was apparently reprinted in Evangelical Review of Theology, 1980, 4,
2. Unfortunately the necessary issues of these journals are not online,
but I found a pdf reprint:

http://www.cccb.edu/fincher/bailey1979.pdf

The other paper I was thinking of looks like it is just an abridged
version of the above, published in The Presbyterian Outlook, January
1988. I haven't had a chance to go back and re-read it to see if it is
just a condensed version of the original paper, or if it expands upon it.

----------

For anyone interested in the oral tradition paper, the reference I have is:

--Kenneth E. Bailey. Informal controlled oral tradition and the synoptic
gospels. Asia Journal of Theology. 1991, 5(1), 34-54.

I found an online reprint of a reprint of this article that appeared in
Themelios, 1995, 20(2), 4-11 (it is so confusing, since I am unfamiliar
with this literature):

http://www.biblicalstudies.org.uk/article_tradition_bailey.h tml

----------

Farewell,
Andy
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