Sprinkler Systems Uhaul move Lawn care Roses and trees Ford Parts Chrysler Parts Lake Powell New IPod Touch Apps New IPhone Apps IPhone Apps IPad Information IPad Apps Android APPS Android Games APPS Android Systems Android Tablets APPS and Beyond Smartphone Apps Smartphone Games Apps Repair and Tools Tablet PC Car Sharing Car Leasing Tabler Pc Fly Fishing Toyota Cars Vacation Rentals Stock market NYSE SSE Stock Freight & Shipping News Gluten Lactose Gout My Coupon Life Campgrounds Check Outdoor Kitchen Design and Redoo Bath Remodeling Palm Springs Las Vegas Vacation Tipps Lake Powell Boating Homes for lease Electric and green Car Blog Pearls and diamonds Whatsapp and forget SMS Blog, What is Whatsapp App Solar Panel Solar Energie Sun Power Blog
Reader


[Suche]  [Administrator]  [Hinweise zum Reader]  [Startseite]
Fantasy » alt.fan.tolkien » silly question
silly question [message #142844] Mo, 03 Oktober 2005 20:44
Paul Watt  
Hi,
Silly question....Why didn't Sauron become invisible when he wore the ring?

Paul
Re: silly question [message #142845 ] Mo, 03 Oktober 2005 20:50
Tamf Moo  
Paul Watt spoke softly, shivering:

> Silly question....Why didn't Sauron become invisible when he wore the ring?

Shelob wouldn't have any of it.

honestly, i don't know whether he did become invisible or not. in the
movie he certainly didn't - but that was the movie. i guess it would be
difficult to be terrifying and commanding if your underlings weren't
able to see you. on the other hand, maybe it makes it easier...

it could be that invisibility was "just a hobbit thing", of course.

--
Tamf, lellow dwagin and CHOKLIT-eater at your service.

Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife
Nor the ox her husband bought her;
But thank the Lord you're not forbidden
To covet your neighbour's daughter
Re: silly question [message #142849 ] Mo, 03 Oktober 2005 23:49
Chris Wright  
Paul Watt wrote:
> Hi,
> Silly question....Why didn't Sauron become invisible when he wore the ring?
>
> Paul
>
>

My theory is that the Ring's power is purely based on psychological
tenets. The Ring doesn't actually make anyone disappear -- light still
strikes them and gives off their image -- it only renders them invisible
to the conscious minds of observers.

Subconsciously, I guess, everyone can still see Frodo when he has the
Ring on, but their conscicous mind 'deletes' the sensory data from some
unknown reason. Perhaps because of the Ring's great appeal, observers
could not bear the thought that someone else wore it, and so they do not
have that thought at all -- by simply not observing the wearer.

Sauron, on the other hand, made the Ring himself. It is part of him. He
is master of the Ring. So he will not allow others to simply ignore him.
He forces people to acknowledge he and his great power. Basically, his
will is much greater than that of any of the free peoples of
Middle-earth. They cannot resist his domination. Hence, they are
observant of him.
Re: silly question [message #142865 ] Di, 04 Oktober 2005 07:10
OMeallyMD  
Paul Watt wrote:
> Hi,
> Silly question....Why didn't Sauron become invisible when he wore the
> ring?

Your question is not silly at all. First of all, Tolkien never tells us
*specifically* that Sauron does not become invisible when he wears the
Ring, but I think your assumption is logical. In view of various
instances in the text where Sauron wears the Ring (the battle on Mt Doom
during the Last Alliance, and Sauron's captivity in Numenor), I don't
get the impression that others couldn't see him.

The invisibility conferred on others by the Ring was due to a partial
shifting of the wearer into the spiritual plane. Gollum, Bilbo and Frodo
(and Sam) are all Mortals, and live in the physical plane, and would be
only vaguely aware of a spiritual plane. When they put the Ring on, they
may become invisible to other Mortals or most of the Elves, but they are
actually more visible to those who already dwell partially in the
spiritual plane. Recall the scene on Weathertop when Frodo put on the
Ring, and was visible to the Ringwraiths (and vice versa). He had
essentially entered the spirit world at that point, and was quite
vulnerable.

We don't know if the Ring would confer invisibility on those who are
already partially in the spiritual plane (such as High Elves and
Wizards). Again, we don't have any instances where one of them puts on
the Ring! It seems logical that it would put them more completely into
the spiritual plane, and make them invisible to those who dwell almost
completely in the physical plane. Sauron, being a Maia, was essentially
a pure spiritual being, whose physical form was worn like raiment. That,
in addition to the fact that he was the Ring's true master makes it
reasonable to assume that the Ring did not make him invisible. The
Wizards were also Maiar, but their forms were true physical bodies, not
something that they could change like articles of clothing. Tolkien
tells us that these forms were subject to the same forces that a human
body would be. I take it that invisibility would also fall into that
category.

Don't get me started on Bombadil!
--
Bill

"Wise fool"
Gandalf, THE TWO TOWERS
-- The Wise will remove 'se' to reply; the Foolish will not--
Re: silly question [message #144531 ] Di, 04 Oktober 2005 20:15
Prai Jei  
Chris Wright (or somebody else of the same name) wrote thusly in message
<2Ih0f.64037$oW2.24715 [at] pd7tw1no>:

> Subconsciously, I guess, everyone can still see Frodo when he has the
> Ring on, but their conscicous mind 'deletes' the sensory data from some
> unknown reason. Perhaps because of the Ring's great appeal, observers
> could not bear the thought that someone else wore it, and so they do not
> have that thought at all -- by simply not observing the wearer.

Sounds like what Douglas Adams called an SEP - Somebody Else's Problem.
--
There are very few spiders found on bananas that bite.

Interchange the alphabetic letter groups to reply
Re: silly question [message #144532 ] Di, 04 Oktober 2005 21:33
Chris Wright  
Prai Jei wrote:
> Chris Wright (or somebody else of the same name) wrote thusly in message
> <2Ih0f.64037$oW2.24715 [at] pd7tw1no>:
>
>
>>Subconsciously, I guess, everyone can still see Frodo when he has the
>>Ring on, but their conscicous mind 'deletes' the sensory data from some
>>unknown reason. Perhaps because of the Ring's great appeal, observers
>>could not bear the thought that someone else wore it, and so they do not
>>have that thought at all -- by simply not observing the wearer.
>
>
> Sounds like what Douglas Adams called an SEP - Somebody Else's Problem.`

*laughs*

I guess.

Just watched Hitchhiker's... Douglas was a druggie I'm guessing?
Re: silly question [message #144539 ] Mi, 05 Oktober 2005 15:22
Chris Wright  
Paul Watt wrote:
> Hi,
> Silly question....Why didn't Sauron become invisible when he wore the ring?
>
> Paul
>
>
PS the Ring did not grant total invisibility, to anyone.

In full sunlight you would still see the wearer's shadow, though faint
and shaky.
Re: silly question [message #147112 ] Sa, 08 Oktober 2005 21:07
Gregory Hernandez  
"Chris Wright" wrote:>
> My theory is that the Ring's power is purely based on psychological
> tenets. The Ring doesn't actually make anyone disappear -- light still
> strikes them and gives off their image -- it only renders them invisible
> to the conscious minds of observers.
>
> Subconsciously, I guess, everyone can still see Frodo when he has the Ring
> on, but their conscicous mind 'deletes' the sensory data from some unknown
> reason. Perhaps because of the Ring's great appeal, observers could not
> bear the thought that someone else wore it, and so they do not have that
> thought at all -- by simply not observing the wearer.
>
> Sauron, on the other hand, made the Ring himself. It is part of him. He is
> master of the Ring. So he will not allow others to simply ignore him. He
> forces people to acknowledge he and his great power. Basically, his will
> is much greater than that of any of the free peoples of Middle-earth. They
> cannot resist his domination. Hence, they are observant of him.

Bloody good answer, that. Thank you.
Re: silly question [message #147120 ] So, 09 Oktober 2005 18:29
Prai Jei  
Gregory Hernandez (or somebody else of the same name) wrote thusly in
message <LNU1f.11555$QE1.3735 [at] newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net>:

>> Sauron, on the other hand, made the Ring himself. It is part of him. He
>> is master of the Ring. So he will not allow others to simply ignore him.
>> He forces people to acknowledge he and his great power. Basically, his
>> will is much greater than that of any of the free peoples of
>> Middle-earth. They cannot resist his domination. Hence, they are
>> observant of him.
>
> Bloody good answer, that. Thank you.

Same with Tom Bombadil of course?

The distinction seems to be that only *mortals* became invisible. Sauron and
TB being immortal were unaffected. The clincher would have been if one of
the Elves had tried the Ring, but as far as we know that never happened.
--
There are very few spiders found on bananas that bite.

Interchange the alphabetic letter groups to reply
Re: silly question [message #147128 ] Mo, 10 Oktober 2005 01:16
Raker  
Let me suggest this alternative (although I like this one below):

The Ring conveyed invisibility over those beings it could also influence or
sway. If it held no power (and could hold no power) over the individual, it
didn't make him invisible -- note Tom Bombadil. That's what I always
understood from the scene of Bombadil putting it on and laughing at it.

I suspect the Ring would have done the same to anyone, man, elf or wizard,
because that was its nature. Possibly, a being with enough self-control and
power might overcome that effect -- at least for a while.

I wouldn't, however, take the powers of the other rings as a suggestion of
what the One Ring might do to an individual. Note the dwarf rings, which did
not make their wearers invisible, and in some cases had little or no
influence at all. The elven rings also did not make the wearer invisible.
Perhaps it just wasn't in their natures.

Todd

"Bill O'Meally" <OMeallyMD [at] wise.rr.com> wrote in message
news:w9o0f.104941$3S5.2980 [at] tornado.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> Paul Watt wrote:
>> Hi,
>> Silly question....Why didn't Sauron become invisible when he wore the
>> ring?
>
> Your question is not silly at all. First of all, Tolkien never tells us
> *specifically* that Sauron does not become invisible when he wears the
> Ring, but I think your assumption is logical. In view of various instances
> in the text where Sauron wears the Ring (the battle on Mt Doom during the
> Last Alliance, and Sauron's captivity in Numenor), I don't get the
> impression that others couldn't see him.
>
> The invisibility conferred on others by the Ring was due to a partial
> shifting of the wearer into the spiritual plane. Gollum, Bilbo and Frodo
> (and Sam) are all Mortals, and live in the physical plane, and would be
> only vaguely aware of a spiritual plane. When they put the Ring on, they
> may become invisible to other Mortals or most of the Elves, but they are
> actually more visible to those who already dwell partially in the
> spiritual plane. Recall the scene on Weathertop when Frodo put on the
> Ring, and was visible to the Ringwraiths (and vice versa). He had
> essentially entered the spirit world at that point, and was quite
> vulnerable.
>
> We don't know if the Ring would confer invisibility on those who are
> already partially in the spiritual plane (such as High Elves and Wizards).
> Again, we don't have any instances where one of them puts on the Ring! It
> seems logical that it would put them more completely into the spiritual
> plane, and make them invisible to those who dwell almost completely in the
> physical plane. Sauron, being a Maia, was essentially a pure spiritual
> being, whose physical form was worn like raiment. That, in addition to the
> fact that he was the Ring's true master makes it reasonable to assume that
> the Ring did not make him invisible. The Wizards were also Maiar, but
> their forms were true physical bodies, not something that they could
> change like articles of clothing. Tolkien tells us that these forms were
> subject to the same forces that a human body would be. I take it that
> invisibility would also fall into that category.
>
> Don't get me started on Bombadil!
> --
> Bill
>
> "Wise fool"
> Gandalf, THE TWO TOWERS
> -- The Wise will remove 'se' to reply; the Foolish will not--
>
>
Re: silly question [message #149029 ] Mo, 10 Oktober 2005 15:04
OMeallyMD  
Raker wrote:
> Let me suggest this alternative (although I like this one below):
>
> The Ring conveyed invisibility over those beings it could also
> influence or sway. If it held no power (and could hold no power) over
> the individual, it didn't make him invisible -- note Tom Bombadil.
> That's what I always understood from the scene of Bombadil putting it
> on and laughing at it.

If you are saying that those on whom the Ring had no effect were not
affected by the Ring, I'd have to agree. ;-)
--
Bill

"Wise fool"
Gandalf, THE TWO TOWERS
-- The Wise will remove 'se' to reply; the Foolish will not--
Re: silly question [message #149041 ] Di, 11 Oktober 2005 15:56
jojo  
"Paul Watt" <paulio [at] wattioNOSPAM.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:dhru71$dol$1 [at] news6.svr.pol.co.uk...
> Hi,
> Silly question....Why didn't Sauron become invisible when he wore the
ring?
>
> Paul
>
>
>
Tom did not disappear because the ring had no power over him.
I think Sauron did not disappear because the power in it was his to begin
with.
Re: silly question [message #149066 ] Mi, 12 Oktober 2005 10:35
Snis Pilbor  
Raker wrote:
>
> I wouldn't, however, take the powers of the other rings as a suggestion of
> what the One Ring might do to an individual. Note the dwarf rings, which did
> not make their wearers invisible, and in some cases had little or no
> influence at all. The elven rings also did not make the wearer invisible.
> Perhaps it just wasn't in their natures.
>
> Todd
>

The Dwarves had partial ring-resistance because Aule fashioned them in
a time when Morgoth had supremacy and so they were made exceedingly
tough against that sort of thing. I believe the lack of invisibility
to the dwarves is because of this, not because of the rings themselves-
when the Noldor originally made them, it's not like they set aside 7
specific rings for the Dwarves and made them special or anything.

The non-invisibility of the Three was not because they were worn by
Elves, but because they didn't confer invisibility period. They were
created by Celebrimbor alone and their secondary purpose was to
preserve beauty- so granting invisibility would be rather
self-defeating. They wouldn't have granted invisibility to even the
most timid, weak-willed hobbit.

Also, the fact that whatever Elf wrote "Of the third age and the rings
of power" specifically mentioned the lack of invisibility on the Three,
is a strong indication that the normal rings of power (ie, all the
rings besides the Three and the One) DID grant invisibility to the
Noldor who wore them.

Also, recall that the 9 Men eventually began to fade permanently. The
way I see it, this is evidence strongly in favor of the "spiritual
shift" theory and blatantly AGAINST the absurd "subconscious blotting
out to avoid acknowledging someone else wearing the ring" nonsense.
Re: silly question [message #149067 ] Mi, 12 Oktober 2005 10:54
Cheeze  
Bill O'Meally wrote:
>
> We don't know if the Ring would confer invisibility on those who are
> already partially in the spiritual plane (such as High Elves and
> Wizards). Again, we don't have any instances where one of them puts on
> the Ring! It seems logical that it would put them more completely into
> the spiritual plane, and make them invisible to those who dwell almost
> completely in the physical plane. Sauron, being a Maia, was essentially
> a pure spiritual being, whose physical form was worn like raiment. That,
> in addition to the fact that he was the Ring's true master makes it
> reasonable to assume that the Ring did not make him invisible. The
> Wizards were also Maiar, but their forms were true physical bodies, not
> something that they could change like articles of clothing. Tolkien
> tells us that these forms were subject to the same forces that a human
> body would be. I take it that invisibility would also fall into that
> category.
>
>

But wouldn't that mean that Gandalf can see Bilbo while he wore the
ring? Its been a long time since I've read the Hobbit, but I don't
remember that being the case.
Re: silly question [message #149068 ] Mi, 12 Oktober 2005 14:51
OMeallyMD  
Cheeze wrote:

> But wouldn't that mean that Gandalf can see Bilbo while he wore the
> ring? Its been a long time since I've read the Hobbit, but I don't
> remember that being the case.

I don't know if it specifically stated that he couldn't. It would seem
reasonable to assume that he could.

--
Bill

"Wise fool"
Gandalf, THE TWO TOWERS
-- The Wise will remove 'se' to reply; the Foolish will not--
Re: silly question [message #149087 ] Do, 13 Oktober 2005 10:36
Graham Lockwood  
On Wed, 12 Oct 2005 07:51:05 -0500, Bill O'Meally wrote
(in article <ZE73f.59$8K4.47 [at] tornado.rdc-kc.rr.com>):

> Cheeze wrote:
>
>> But wouldn't that mean that Gandalf can see Bilbo while he wore the
>> ring? Its been a long time since I've read the Hobbit, but I don't
>> remember that being the case.
>
> I don't know if it specifically stated that he couldn't. It would seem
> reasonable to assume that he could.

When Bilbo escapes from Gollum and then sneaks past Balin (who's on watch) to
surprise the Dwarves, Gandalf doesn't seem to see him either.

I can't think of any other instance when Gandalf may have been in a position
to see someone wearing the One Ring.


---
Graham
Re: silly question [message #149097 ] Do, 13 Oktober 2005 15:02
OMeallyMD  
Graham Lockwood wrote:

> When Bilbo escapes from Gollum and then sneaks past Balin (who's on
> watch) to surprise the Dwarves, Gandalf doesn't seem to see him
> either.
>
> I can't think of any other instance when Gandalf may have been in a
> position to see someone wearing the One Ring.

But then doesn't Gandalf give Bilbo a knowing glance? I'll have to check
the book later.

--
Bill

"Wise fool"
Gandalf, THE TWO TOWERS
-- The Wise will remove 'se' to reply; the Foolish will not--
Re: silly question [message #149100 ] Do, 13 Oktober 2005 17:49
Graham Lockwood  
On Thu, 13 Oct 2005 08:02:09 -0500, Bill O'Meally wrote
(in article <lVs3f.100$5i.53 [at] tornado.rdc-kc.rr.com>):

> Graham Lockwood wrote:
>
>> When Bilbo escapes from Gollum and then sneaks past Balin (who's on
>> watch) to surprise the Dwarves, Gandalf doesn't seem to see him
>> either.
>>
>> I can't think of any other instance when Gandalf may have been in a
>> position to see someone wearing the One Ring.
>
> But then doesn't Gandalf give Bilbo a knowing glance? I'll have to check
> the book later.

Immediately upon appearing, the dwarves and Gandalf "shouted with surprise
and delight. Gandalf was as astonished as any of them, but probably more
pleased than all the others."

It isn't until after BIlbo relates his story (which leaves out any mention of
the Ring), that Gandalf "gave Bilbo a queer look from under his bushy
eyebrows... and the hobbit wondered if he guessed at the part of his tale
that he had left out."

When Gandalf speaks with Frodo in "Shadow of the past", he says that he first
began to guess that Bilbo's Ring was the One Ring "it was in the year that
the White council drove the dark power from Mirkwood, just before the Battle
of the Five Armies, that Bilbo found his ring. A shadow fell on my heart
then, though I did not know yet what I feared. I wondered often how Gollum
came by a Great Ring, as plainly it was - that at least was clear from the
first. Then I heard Bilbo's strange story of how he had 'won' it, and I could
not believe it."

He doesn't mention knowing Bilbo had it before Bilbo revealed that he had it
but I'm not convinced that that passage entirely rules out that possibility
either.


---
Graham
Re: silly question [message #149102 ] Do, 13 Oktober 2005 22:35
Raker  
"Graham Lockwood" <g-ng [at] yeehawgroups.com> wrote in message
news:0001HW.BF73EC2700E182D4F0284600 [at] news.dallas.sbcglobal.net...
> On Thu, 13 Oct 2005 08:02:09 -0500, Bill O'Meally wrote
> (in article <lVs3f.100$5i.53 [at] tornado.rdc-kc.rr.com>):
>
>> Graham Lockwood wrote:
>>
>>> When Bilbo escapes from Gollum and then sneaks past Balin (who's on
>>> watch) to surprise the Dwarves, Gandalf doesn't seem to see him
>>> either.
>>>
>>> I can't think of any other instance when Gandalf may have been in a
>>> position to see someone wearing the One Ring.
>>
>> But then doesn't Gandalf give Bilbo a knowing glance? I'll have to check
>> the book later.
>
> Immediately upon appearing, the dwarves and Gandalf "shouted with surprise
> and delight. Gandalf was as astonished as any of them, but probably more
> pleased than all the others."
>
> It isn't until after BIlbo relates his story (which leaves out any mention
> of
> the Ring), that Gandalf "gave Bilbo a queer look from under his bushy
> eyebrows... and the hobbit wondered if he guessed at the part of his tale
> that he had left out."
>
> When Gandalf speaks with Frodo in "Shadow of the past", he says that he
> first
> began to guess that Bilbo's Ring was the One Ring "it was in the year that
> the White council drove the dark power from Mirkwood, just before the
> Battle
> of the Five Armies, that Bilbo found his ring. A shadow fell on my heart
> then, though I did not know yet what I feared. I wondered often how Gollum
> came by a Great Ring, as plainly it was - that at least was clear from the
> first. Then I heard Bilbo's strange story of how he had 'won' it, and I
> could
> not believe it."
>
> He doesn't mention knowing Bilbo had it before Bilbo revealed that he had
> it
> but I'm not convinced that that passage entirely rules out that
> possibility
> either.
>
>

I had always read those segments as Gandalf -- an astute observer to be
sure -- guessing that Bilbo was lying.

And that's a pretty logical thing, from my experience. I've interviewed
thousands of people for news reports, and while I can't always tell what the
truth is, I'm not half bad at noting when someone is telling me a fib.

Granted, it's possible that Gandalf could see Bilbo, but I think it
unlikely. It's more likely he noticed behavior that was un-Bilbo-like in a
normally honest hobbit.

Todd
Re: silly question [message #149103 ] Fr, 14 Oktober 2005 01:01
Raven  
"Graham Lockwood" <g-ng [at] yeehawgroups.com> skrev i en meddelelse
news:0001HW.BF7386A200C9B7A3F0284600 [at] news.dallas.sbcglobal.net...

> When Bilbo escapes from Gollum and then sneaks past Balin (who's on watch)
> to surprise the Dwarves, Gandalf doesn't seem to see him either.

It seems to me that Bilbo needed the Ring only to get past Balin, and if
nobody had been on watch Bilbo could have stepped up to them unseen without
it. If Bilbo had sneaked up to them with a wink to Balin, and Balin had
just smiled and remained silent so as not to spoil Bilbo's joke with the
rest of the Company, Gandalf would have noticed nothing until Bilbo stepped
in among them.
The potential flaw in this argument is the wording "...said Bilbo
stepping down into the middle of them, and slipping off the ring". It
implies that Bilbo was among them when he became visible again, rather than
taking off the Ring while he was still outside their circle. Though the
wording permits the notion that he may have slipped the Ring off
simultaneously with lifting his foot as he began to walk from his position
outside their circle where he had been listening to their talk. Then
Gandalf and the Dwarves would not have turned their gazes towards him until
the Ring was off. This notion is of course supported by the fact that none
of the Dwarves noticed that he appeared out of thin air. Or if technically
they did, it was so shortly after he emerged from the lip of the dell that
they were sitting in that they would have attributed his strange appearance
to a trick of their own eyes, and forgotten it.
So it seems to me that Gandalf probably did not, on this occasion, see
where Bilbo was while Bilbo was wearing the Ring. He was suspicious of
Bilbo's tale because he was wiser than the Dwarves, and thus both realized
how difficult it must have been for a quite visible Bilbo to have snuck past
Balin, and had a mind that was in general more open to different
possibilities besides the obvious conclusion. In addition, unlike them, he
had his mind on things such as rings that could make someone invisible.

Hraban.
Vorheriges Thema:Re: Orcs
Nächstes Thema:FA: Glamdring sword, by Greg Hildebrandt
Gehe zu:
  


aktuelle Zeit: Mi Mai 23 23:32:16 CEST 2012

Insgesamt benötigte Zeit, um die Seite zu erzeugen: 0,22100 Sekunden
.:: Startseite - Hinweise - Impressum ::.

Powered