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Fantasy » alt.fan.tolkien » if Sauron was so attuned to the Ring ...
if Sauron was so attuned to the Ring ... [message #140193] Mi, 28 September 2005 04:32
Chris Hoelscher  
The ring was lying in the Anduin, a scant 150 miles from Dol Guldur... from
approx 1050 thru 2063 and again from 2460 thru 2463 (admittedly only 3
years) - why didn't Sauron "feel" the ring or at least know in what area to
search? it just doesn't seem likely that there was no connection ...

chris hoelscher
Re: if Sauron was so attuned to the Ring ... [message #141209 ] Mi, 28 September 2005 19:37
matt  
Chris Hoelscher wrote:
> The ring was lying in the Anduin, a scant 150 miles from Dol Guldur... from
> approx 1050 thru 2063 and again from 2460 thru 2463 (admittedly only 3
> years) - why didn't Sauron "feel" the ring or at least know in what area to
> search? it just doesn't seem likely that there was no connection ...
>
> chris hoelscher
>
>

he was drinking heavily in those days...
Re: if Sauron was so attuned to the Ring ... [message #141258 ] Do, 29 September 2005 18:00
Dan Leach  
"Chris Hoelscher" <chrishoelscher [at] insightbb.com> wrote in message
news:Mgn_e.407263$xm3.98409 [at] attbi_s21...
> The ring was lying in the Anduin, a scant 150 miles from Dol Guldur...
> from approx 1050 thru 2063 and again from 2460 thru 2463 (admittedly only
> 3 years) - why didn't Sauron "feel" the ring or at least know in what area
> to search? it just doesn't seem likely that there was no connection ...
>
> chris hoelscher
I dont think he could sense the rings proximity unless someone was wearing
it. After all, at the height of his restored power he did not sense frodo
climbing the slopes of orodruin carrying the thing(although i know he had
his mind on other things)
Re: if Sauron was so attuned to the Ring ... [message #141284 ] Fr, 30 September 2005 03:10
NobodyMan  
On Wed, 28 Sep 2005 02:32:12 GMT, "Chris Hoelscher"
<chrishoelscher [at] insightbb.com> wrote:

>The ring was lying in the Anduin, a scant 150 miles from Dol Guldur... from
>approx 1050 thru 2063 and again from 2460 thru 2463 (admittedly only 3
>years) - why didn't Sauron "feel" the ring or at least know in what area to
>search? it just doesn't seem likely that there was no connection ...
>
>chris hoelscher
>

Sauron never "felt" the power of the ring. In fact, until he captured
Gollum and tortured him, he believed the Ring lost to him forever. It
wasn't until the capture and torture of Gollum that he put all the
pieces together, figured out that the ring Gollum had possessed could
only have been the One, and begain searching for "Baggins" in great
earnest.
Re: if Sauron was so attuned to the Ring ... [message #142302 ] Fr, 30 September 2005 14:07
Tux Wonder-Dog  
Chris Hoelscher wrote:

> The ring was lying in the Anduin, a scant 150 miles from Dol Guldur...
> from approx 1050 thru 2063 and again from 2460 thru 2463 (admittedly only
> 3 years) - why didn't Sauron "feel" the ring or at least know in what area
> to search? it just doesn't seem likely that there was no connection ...
>
> chris hoelscher
Perhaps a Romulan cloaking device? Nah, wrong movie ... ;)

I think that was probably _why_ he went to Dol Guldur, after having had
Mordor as his centre of operations for the previous few millennia. But
unable to move beyond its confines due to the presence of the Eldar in
Lothlorien.

I think Lothlorien probably "shielded" its precise location from him,
though, hence the OT joke at the start.

Besides, he had the reduction of Arnor through the agency of Angmar and the
strangling of Gondor through the agencies of the Wainriders, the Haradrim,
etc, and of course Minas Morgul, and the perversion and crushing of the
Khazad to manage through the agency of their rings of power, in the
meantime.

All revenge for the Last Alliance.

Once having arrived in Dol Guldur, the Ring then vanished into a stronghold
of his servants, who needless to say, never came into contact with it (and
survived its wearer), so there probably was some cloaking there as well.
Sort of "the good is the enemy of the best"; the low-grade malice of the
orcs and Gollum cloaking the deep malice of the One Ring.

Maybe his lack of imaginative sympathy worked against him as well. Since he
_knew_ that the Arnorian king had set off with it, and somehow it hadn't
appeared in Arnor - you know, telltale signs of the One Ring of Power like
staying up late and arguing on newsgroups - oops, wrong movie again, mea
culpa - and with the Angmar Witchking directly in opposition, where the One
Ring would've made its impact felt immediately on him and everyone under
his command - he must have thought that the Arnorians had in consultation
with the Eldar, either destroyed it or sent it overseas to Valinor.

Just some random thoughts.

Wesley Parish
--
"Good, late in to more rewarding well."  "Well, you tonight.  And I was
lookintelligent woman of Ming home.  I trust you with a tender silence."  I
get a word into my hands, a different and unbelike, probably - 'she
fortunate fat woman', wrong word.  I think to me, I justupid.
Let not emacs meta-X dissociate-press write your romantic dialogs...!!!
Re: if Sauron was so attuned to the Ring ... [message #142307 ] Fr, 30 September 2005 18:50
sbjensen  
Quoth NobodyMan <none [at] none.net> in article
<o04pj15ci2d53vv6o1gbe67gffpjuel1u5 [at] 4ax.com>:
> <chrishoelscher [at] insightbb.com> wrote:
> >The ring was lying in the Anduin, a scant 150 miles from Dol
> >Guldur... why didn't Sauron "feel" the ring or at least know in
> >what area to search?

> Sauron never "felt" the power of the ring. In fact, until he
> captured Gollum and tortured him, he believed the Ring lost to him
> forever.

I'm not sure that I agree here. First of all, I feel like I've even
seen a statement by Tolkien himself claiming that Sauron chose Dol
Guldur because he had some knowledge of Isildur's fate. At the very
least, we know that Saruman finally agreed to drive Sauron out of Dol
Guldur only when he learned that Sauron's servants were searching for
the Ring in the same areas that Saruman's were. That was long before
Sauron had any knowledge of Gollum, of course.

Meanwhile, I have wondered in the past whether Sauron did or didn't
feel the Ring. We know that the Nazgul could feel it if they were
close enough (some better than others). I've sometimes thought that
Sauron might have been able to detect the Ring at enormous
range... such long range, in fact, that he had no idea where it was
(at least, not based on his sense of its presence alone). I've
commented on the Nazgul ability in this earlier post:

http://tolkien.slimy.com/newsgroups/RingSense.txt

and I sort of suspect that Sauron may have had something similar.

Steuard Jensen
Re: if Sauron was so attuned to the Ring ... [message #142315 ] Fr, 30 September 2005 23:13
NobodyMan  
On Fri, 30 Sep 2005 16:50:13 GMT, sbjensen [at] midway.uchicago.edu
(Steuard Jensen) wrote:

>> Sauron never "felt" the power of the ring. In fact, until he
>> captured Gollum and tortured him, he believed the Ring lost to him
>> forever.
>
>I'm not sure that I agree here. First of all, I feel like I've even
>seen a statement by Tolkien himself claiming that Sauron chose Dol
>Guldur because he had some knowledge of Isildur's fate. At the very
>least, we know that Saruman finally agreed to drive Sauron out of Dol
>Guldur only when he learned that Sauron's servants were searching for
>the Ring in the same areas that Saruman's were. That was long before
>Sauron had any knowledge of Gollum, of course.

I feel otherwise. Where else was Sauron supposed to go? He was not
one to hide in the deep caverns, as the Balrog in Moria did.
Returning to Mordor wasn't really an option as he was still weak and
Gondor was still strong. He didn't have Saruman as an ally. Why,
look, the old fortress at Dol Guldur is still vacant. What a great
place to sit and regain strength.........

The only reason he had servants lookin in the Gladden Fields is
because he heard that Isildur had fallen there. IMO, he honestly
thought the ring was gone, but since he had servants and they needed
something to do while he brooded and regained strength, why not have
them poke around just in case?

Now, once he was strong enough, and sure of the state of Gondor and
that Mordor was available again, he moved - and then along came
Gollum.
Re: if Sauron was so attuned to the Ring ... [message #142352 ] Sa, 01 Oktober 2005 14:49
Christopher Kreuzer  
Tux Wonder-Dog <wes.parish [at] paradise.net.nz> wrote:

[Sauron and his revenge]

<snip>

> Besides, he had the reduction of Arnor through the agency of Angmar
> and the strangling of Gondor through the agencies of the Wainriders,
> the Haradrim, etc, and of course Minas Morgul, and the perversion and
> crushing of the Khazad to manage through the agency of their rings of
> power, in the meantime.
>
> All revenge for the Last Alliance.

I thought it went back further than that, to Numenor at least, if not
back to the Edain in Beleriand. It definitely says somewhere that Sauron
waged war on the Exiles in Middle-earth out of some need for revenge,
and that was what led to the Last Alliance:

"[Sauron] re-entered Mordor, and hid there for a time in silence. But
his anger was great when he learned that Elendil whom he most hated, had
escaped him, and was now ordering a realm upon his borders. Therefore,
after a time he made war upon the Exiles" (Appendix A, LotR)

In fact, you can draw several parallels between Ar-Pharazon and Aragorn,
as leaders who one the one hand (Ar-Pharazon) failed to reject Sauron,
and on the other hand (Aragorn) rejected Sauron. I don't think it is too
much of a stretch to say that Aragorn, in the end, gets _his_ revenge on
Sauron (for what happened to the Numenoreans).

Christopher

--
---
Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard
Re: if Sauron was so attuned to the Ring ... [message #142354 ] Sa, 01 Oktober 2005 15:11
Christopher Kreuzer  
Steuard Jensen <sbjensen [at] midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
> Quoth NobodyMan <none [at] none.net> in article
> <o04pj15ci2d53vv6o1gbe67gffpjuel1u5 [at] 4ax.com>:
>> <chrishoelscher [at] insightbb.com> wrote:
>>> The ring was lying in the Anduin, a scant 150 miles from Dol
>>> Guldur... why didn't Sauron "feel" the ring or at least know in
>>> what area to search?
>
>> Sauron never "felt" the power of the ring. In fact, until he
>> captured Gollum and tortured him, he believed the Ring lost to him
>> forever.
>
> I'm not sure that I agree here. First of all, I feel like I've even
> seen a statement by Tolkien himself claiming that Sauron chose Dol
> Guldur because he had some knowledge of Isildur's fate.

Are you sure it was Tolkien, and not a character like Saruman or
Gandalf? Bit like the Saruman quote you refer to below? I can only think
you are thinking of a letter, but you or someone will have to find such
a quote if it exists.

> At the very least, we know that Saruman finally agreed to drive Sauron
> out of Dol Guldur only when he learned that Sauron's servants were
> searching for the Ring in the same areas that Saruman's were. That
was
> long before Sauron had any knowledge of Gollum, of course.

The bit about Sauron thinking the ring was lost to him comes from
Gandalf, though whether he gets this right, and exactly _how_ Gandalf
knows this, is probably debatable:

"And this is the dreadful chance, Frodo. He [Sauron] believed that the
One had perished; that the Elves had destroyed it, as should have been
done. But he knows now that it has not perished, that it has been found.
So he is seeking it, seeking it, and all his thought is bent on it."
(The Shadow of the Past)

Looking at the question in more detail, it seems to come down to _when_
Sauron heard of Isildur's fate (and indeed when Sauron was recovered
enough to even gather such news), and _when_ Sauron first realised that
Isildur took the Ring, rather then the Ring being destroyed, and that
the Ring was lost with Isildur, rather than being safely taking to the
Elves (as Isildur finally realised should be done).

This is different from learning that the Ring had been found. That seems
to first happen when Gollum gets captured (some time in the eight years
after Third Age 3009). It seems that Sauron is only vaguely searching
for the Ring before then, not being sure whether it still existed to be
found.

> Meanwhile, I have wondered in the past whether Sauron did or didn't
> feel the Ring. We know that the Nazgul could feel it if they were
> close enough (some better than others). I've sometimes thought that
> Sauron might have been able to detect the Ring at enormous
> range... such long range, in fact, that he had no idea where it was
> (at least, not based on his sense of its presence alone). I've
> commented on the Nazgul ability in this earlier post:
>
> http://tolkien.slimy.com/newsgroups/RingSense.txt

You seem to imply here that the Lord of the Nazgul sensed the Ring in
the Morgul Vale (when Sam and Frodo and Gollum were close by). That
makes no sense, as he would then have made his entire army search the
valley. I get the impression the "feeling" the Lord of the Nazgul got
there was more vague and general, of 'something' being there, but he
couldn't quite put his finger on it (or in it - pun intended).

Christopher

--
---
Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard
Re: if Sauron was so attuned to the Ring ... [message #142372 ] Sa, 01 Oktober 2005 19:55
Yuk Tang  
"Christopher Kreuzer" <spamgard [at] blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in
news:vBv%e.119398$G8.33566 [at] text.news.blueyonder.co.uk:
> Tux Wonder-Dog <wes.parish [at] paradise.net.nz> wrote:
>
> [Sauron and his revenge]
>
> <snip>
>
>> Besides, he had the reduction of Arnor through the agency of
>> Angmar and the strangling of Gondor through the agencies of the
>> Wainriders, the Haradrim, etc, and of course Minas Morgul, and
>> the perversion and crushing of the Khazad to manage through the
>> agency of their rings of power, in the meantime.
>>
>> All revenge for the Last Alliance.
>
> I thought it went back further than that, to Numenor at least, if
> not back to the Edain in Beleriand. It definitely says somewhere
> that Sauron waged war on the Exiles in Middle-earth out of some
> need for revenge, and that was what led to the Last Alliance:
>
> "[Sauron] re-entered Mordor, and hid there for a time in silence.
> But his anger was great when he learned that Elendil whom he most
> hated, had escaped him, and was now ordering a realm upon his
> borders. Therefore, after a time he made war upon the Exiles"
> (Appendix A, LotR)
>
> In fact, you can draw several parallels between Ar-Pharazon and
> Aragorn, as leaders who one the one hand (Ar-Pharazon) failed to
> reject Sauron, and on the other hand (Aragorn) rejected Sauron. I
> don't think it is too much of a stretch to say that Aragorn, in
> the end, gets _his_ revenge on Sauron (for what happened to the
> Numenoreans).

It goes back to Tar-Minastir's relief of Lindon. Prior to that, the
only power he worried about were the Elves (cf. his Ringplans).
After, he recognised that he needed to stretch his wings a bit
(something balrogs could never do) and reach out to other peoples,
especially any rogue Numenoreans.


--
Cheers, ymt.
Re: if Sauron was so attuned to the Ring ... [message #142396 ] So, 02 Oktober 2005 12:23
Tux Wonder-Dog  
Christopher Kreuzer wrote:

> Steuard Jensen <sbjensen [at] midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
>> Quoth NobodyMan <none [at] none.net> in article
>> <o04pj15ci2d53vv6o1gbe67gffpjuel1u5 [at] 4ax.com>:
>>> <chrishoelscher [at] insightbb.com> wrote:
>>>> The ring was lying in the Anduin, a scant 150 miles from Dol
>>>> Guldur... why didn't Sauron "feel" the ring or at least know in
>>>> what area to search?
>>
>>> Sauron never "felt" the power of the ring. In fact, until he
>>> captured Gollum and tortured him, he believed the Ring lost to him
>>> forever.
>>
>> I'm not sure that I agree here. First of all, I feel like I've even
>> seen a statement by Tolkien himself claiming that Sauron chose Dol
>> Guldur because he had some knowledge of Isildur's fate.
>
> Are you sure it was Tolkien, and not a character like Saruman or
> Gandalf? Bit like the Saruman quote you refer to below? I can only think
> you are thinking of a letter, but you or someone will have to find such
> a quote if it exists.
>
>> At the very least, we know that Saruman finally agreed to drive Sauron
>> out of Dol Guldur only when he learned that Sauron's servants were
>> searching for the Ring in the same areas that Saruman's were. That
> was
>> long before Sauron had any knowledge of Gollum, of course.
>
> The bit about Sauron thinking the ring was lost to him comes from
> Gandalf, though whether he gets this right, and exactly _how_ Gandalf
> knows this, is probably debatable:
>
> "And this is the dreadful chance, Frodo. He [Sauron] believed that the
> One had perished; that the Elves had destroyed it, as should have been
> done. But he knows now that it has not perished, that it has been found.
> So he is seeking it, seeking it, and all his thought is bent on it."
> (The Shadow of the Past)

That must have been what Gandalf was doing prowling around Dol Guldur's
dungeons: The Hobbit, An Unexpected Party, pg 34-35

'[...]how he got there I don't know, but I found him a prisoner in the
dungeons of the Necromancer.'
'Whatever were you doing there?' asked Thorin with a shudder, and all the
dwarves shuddered.
'Never you mind. I was finding things out, as usual; and a nasty dangerous
business it was. Even I, Gandalf only just escaped. I tried to save your
father, but it was too late. He was witless and wandering, and had
forgotten almost everything except the map and the key.'
>
> Looking at the question in more detail, it seems to come down to _when_
> Sauron heard of Isildur's fate (and indeed when Sauron was recovered
> enough to even gather such news), and _when_ Sauron first realised that
> Isildur took the Ring, rather then the Ring being destroyed, and that
> the Ring was lost with Isildur, rather than being safely taking to the
> Elves (as Isildur finally realised should be done).
>
> This is different from learning that the Ring had been found. That seems
> to first happen when Gollum gets captured (some time in the eight years
> after Third Age 3009). It seems that Sauron is only vaguely searching
> for the Ring before then, not being sure whether it still existed to be
> found.
>
>> Meanwhile, I have wondered in the past whether Sauron did or didn't
>> feel the Ring. We know that the Nazgul could feel it if they were
>> close enough (some better than others). I've sometimes thought that
>> Sauron might have been able to detect the Ring at enormous
>> range... such long range, in fact, that he had no idea where it was
>> (at least, not based on his sense of its presence alone). I've
>> commented on the Nazgul ability in this earlier post:
>>
>> http://tolkien.slimy.com/newsgroups/RingSense.txt
>
> You seem to imply here that the Lord of the Nazgul sensed the Ring in
> the Morgul Vale (when Sam and Frodo and Gollum were close by). That
> makes no sense, as he would then have made his entire army search the
> valley. I get the impression the "feeling" the Lord of the Nazgul got
> there was more vague and general, of 'something' being there, but he
> couldn't quite put his finger on it (or in it - pun intended).
>
> Christopher
>

--
"Good, late in to more rewarding well."  "Well, you tonight.  And I was
lookintelligent woman of Ming home.  I trust you with a tender silence."  I
get a word into my hands, a different and unbelike, probably - 'she
fortunate fat woman', wrong word.  I think to me, I justupid.
Let not emacs meta-X dissociate-press write your romantic dialogs...!!!
Re: if Sauron was so attuned to the Ring ... [message #144577 ] Do, 06 Oktober 2005 20:13
sbjensen  
Quoth NobodyMan <none [at] none.net> in article
<ldarj19u8dimn8u7u6nslsvj8t6hl67ub1 [at] 4ax.com>:
> (Steuard Jensen) wrote:
> >I'm not sure that I agree here. First of all, I feel like I've
> >even seen a statement by Tolkien himself claiming that Sauron chose
> >Dol Guldur because he had some knowledge of Isildur's fate.

(Obviously, it would help enormously if I could find the time to go
track down this quote, or convince myself that it doesn't exist.)

> I feel otherwise. Where else was Sauron supposed to go? He was not
> one to hide in the deep caverns, as the Balrog in Moria did.
> Returning to Mordor wasn't really an option...

Anywhere in the distant East where the nations remained under the sway
of him or his minions? Or at least where there weren't a horde of
Elves and Dunedain (and wizards!) who might recognize his return?
(That's certainly where he fled after the White Council's first
attempt to identify the power in Dol Guldur, and I have some memory of
a statement that his spirit fled to the East immediately after his
defeat by Elendil and Gil-galad.)

> Why, look, the old fortress at Dol Guldur is still vacant. What a
> great place to sit and regain strength.........

What old fortress at Dol Guldur? Pulling a quote from an old
newsgroup post by Raven,

---
Footnote 12 of "Disaster of the Gladden Fields" in UT says this:
"Amon Lanc," 'Naked Hill,' was the highest point in the highland at
the south-west corner of the Greenwood, and was so called because no
trees grew on its summit. In later days it was Dol Guldur, the first
stronghold of Sauron after his awakening. [Author's note.]"
---

So Dol Guldur did not exist before the Third Age; indeed, there's no
hint here that there was any pre-existing fortress there at all.

Steuard Jensen
Re: if Sauron was so attuned to the Ring ... [message #144578 ] Do, 06 Oktober 2005 20:32
sbjensen  
Quoth "Christopher Kreuzer" <spamgard [at] blueyonder.co.uk> in article
<EVv%e.119412$G8.62864 [at] text.news.blueyonder.co.uk>:
> Steuard Jensen <sbjensen [at] midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
> > First of all, I feel like I've even seen a statement by Tolkien
> > himself claiming that Sauron chose Dol Guldur because he had some
> > knowledge of Isildur's fate.

> Are you sure it was Tolkien, and not a character like Saruman or
> Gandalf?

Oh, sorry for being unclear. I meant "in a book by Tolkien" (as
opposed to simply in some newsgroup discussion or secondary text), not
"by Tolkien as author". Whatever I'm thinking of could easily have
been a statement by Gandalf or some other knowledgeable character.

> The bit about Sauron thinking the ring was lost to him comes from
> Gandalf, though whether he gets this right, and exactly _how_ Gandalf
> knows this, is probably debatable:

> "And this is the dreadful chance, Frodo. He [Sauron] believed that the
> One had perished...
> (The Shadow of the Past)

I've wondered about that quote for a long time. We know from multiple
sources that Sauron was searching for the Ring where Isildur fell,
long before he captured Gollum. So it's hard not to conclude that
Gandalf was just plain wrong here: Sauron obviously had _some_ hope
that he could find the Ring. On the other hand, his basic point was
still right: Sauron certainly seems to have been confident that the
Ring hadn't been found by anyone else.

I wonder if Saruman's search for the Ring is what tipped Sauron off to
the notion that it might still be findable?

> > Meanwhile, I have wondered in the past whether Sauron did or
> > didn't feel the Ring. We know that the Nazgul could feel it if
> > they were close enough (some better than others).
....
> > I've commented on the Nazgul ability in this earlier post:
> > http://tolkien.slimy.com/newsgroups/RingSense.txt

> You seem to imply here that the Lord of the Nazgul sensed the Ring in
> the Morgul Vale (when Sam and Frodo and Gollum were close by).

Well, the book says that he did sense some outside power in his
valley. And my reading has always been that he somehow sent out a
call for that power to reveal itself (which is what made Frodo start
to put on the Ring in response, or at least, the Ring tried to make
Frodo put it on in order to respond to the Witch King's call).

But I didn't mean to imply that the Nazgul could sense the Ring
_specifically_ (as this example clearly disproves). For terms like
"Ring sensing ability", you can read "evil power sensing ability" or
some similar phrase if you'd like. I figure that the Nazgul were
pretty confident that the only powerful magic object in the Shire was
the Ring, so calling it something like "Ring sensing" seems reasonable
in that context.

Steuard Jensen
Vorheriges Thema:Vote: your favorite Tolkien work, and why
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