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Fantasy » alt.fan.tolkien » COTW: Index III. Places
COTW: Index III. Places [message #140140] Di, 27 September 2005 03:03
Belba Grubb From Stoc  
One could sing or chant the first part of this section quite
independently of the associations each place name has for the reader who
has completed /The Lord of the Rings/: "Aglarond, Aldalome, Ambarona,
Amon Din, Amon Hen, Amon Lhaw, Amon Sul, Ancient World."

Such is the beauty of the place names JRRT used. And the associations
they bring up from the story are those involving, respectively: Gimli;
Treebeard; the northern threshold of Old Gondor and the struggle there
among Frodo, Sauron, and (though we did not know it at the time)
Gandalf; and Aragorn telling the hobbits how Elendil once awaited the
arrival of the Noldorin High King at the very place where he and they
were now expecting the arrival of the dreaded Black Riders. The last
one brings up a pop quiz: Without looking, do you recognize what the
Ancient World was and where it was mentioned? (Hint: Aragorn spoke of
it, but not at Amon Sul--however, I know this only because I had to look
it up. Sigh.)

JRRT worked hard on names of places, for he knew that

in an imaginary country and period, as this one, coherently made,
the nomenclature is a more important element than in an
'historical' novel...If in an imaginary land *real* place-names are
used, or ones that are carefully constructed to fall into familiar
patterns, these become integral names, [and] 'sound real'

-- From a 1956 letter to Rayner Unwin (Letter 190)

Here we are very close to one of the wellsprings of the work's power.
Is it because so much of it "sounded real" to you that it became real?
Certainly it had that effect on me, although nomenclature is only one
part of the very complex attraction.

JRRT gives us, in Appendix F.11, an example of using real place names:
the derivation of the names for Bree, Combe, Archet and Chetwood,
modeled on "relics of British nomenclature." Perhaps those in the UK
could provide modern examples of similar place names today. I find
echoes of them in Keats' "For there's Bishops teign," with its Coomb,
Arch Brook, and Wild Wood; and JRRT would certainly have felt
comfortable with that poem's closing:

Then who would go
Into dark Soho
And chatter with dak'd-hair'd critics
When he can stay
for the new-mown hay
And startle the dappled prickets?

At the least, Tolkien would have known what a dappled pricket was. :-)

It might take another linguist to follow JRRT's second method, in which
he constructed names "to fall into familiar patterns." I hope somebody
here can tell us more about that. Certainly at some times he would
start with a name and from that construct its history and place within
the languages of Arda, but he also had a set of rules that he used, at
least for Shire names, based on

the style, origins, and mode of formation of English (especially
Midland) place-names.

--From a 1965 letter to the 'Thain' of the Tolkien Society of
America (Letter 276)

In this letter he noted that

if a proper map of the whole Shire were drawn up there could be
quite a large number of places entered.

and he offered to construct new names for the use of the TSA's members.
Did he, in fact, do this?

Enough already. One more quiz: where are these places, and with what
and/or whom are they associated in the story?

- Arnach
- Bamfurlong
- Celos
- Ciril
- Fen Hollen
- Durthand
- Eastlands
- Gilrain (not to be confused with Gilraen)
- Great Wood
- Irensaga
- Limlight River
- Merethrond
- Northerland
- Old Grange
- South Lane
- Tarlang's Neck
- Underharrow
- World's End

In going through the list one sees again how much of /The Silmarillion/
is brought in here, from Oiolosse to Calacirya and Eressea, out to
Westernesse, and back all the way to Beleriand and Doriath. The index
again shows how JRRT was working in his larger mythology.

And what are your thoughts and comments and wonderments on this section?

Barb
Re: Index III. Places [message #140144 ] Di, 27 September 2005 04:05
aelfwina  
"Belba Grubb From Stock" <barbb [at] dbtech.net> wrote in message
news:11jh6k8mjn9a62e [at] corp.supernews.com...
> One could sing or chant the first part of this section quite independently
> of the associations each place name has for the reader who has completed
> /The Lord of the Rings/: "Aglarond, Aldalome, Ambarona, Amon Din, Amon
> Hen, Amon Lhaw, Amon Sul, Ancient World."

Just as Treebeard did. And you are quite right.

> Enough already. One more quiz: where are these places, and with what
> and/or whom are they associated in the story?
>
> - Arnach
> - Bamfurlong
> - Celos
> - Ciril
> - Fen Hollen
> - Durthand
> - Eastlands
> - Gilrain (not to be confused with Gilraen)
> - Great Wood
> - Irensaga
> - Limlight River
> - Merethrond
> - Northerland
> - Old Grange
> - South Lane
> - Tarlang's Neck
> - Underharrow
> - World's End
>
The only one that jumps out at me is Bamfurlong, Farmer Maggot's place. But
several of the others tug at my memory, meaning I'll be up half the night
trying to remember, and then end up looking them up--in the Index....LOL!

Barbara
Re: Index III. Places [message #140171 ] Di, 27 September 2005 21:54
Christopher Kreuzer  
Belba Grubb From Stock <barbb [at] dbtech.net> wrote:

<snip>

Sorry to fast-forward to the pop quiz. Some nice comments there about
names. Have you ever seen a copy of Tolkien's 'Guide to Names' that he
wrote for translators to use?

> Without looking, do you recognize what the
> Ancient World was and where it was mentioned? (Hint: Aragorn spoke
> of it, but not at Amon Sul--however, I know this only because I had
> to look it up. Sigh.)

I would have been completely stuck without the Aragorn hint. Actually, I
think I am still completely stuck!

Ancient World...

Aha! Terror of the Ancient World?

Sounds like what he said to Galadriel and Celeborn in Lothlorien:

"It was both a flame and a shadow. It was a terror of the Ancient World,
such as I have never seen before..."

And Legolas then says it was:

"...a Balrog of Morgoth..."

[Keats poem]

> Then who would go
> Into dark Soho
> And chatter with dak'd-hair'd critics
> When he can stay
> for the new-mown hay
> And startle the dappled prickets?
>
> At the least, Tolkien would have known what a dappled pricket was. :-)

And what about us poor unenlightened souls? :-)

<snip>

> Enough already. One more quiz: where are these places, and with what
> and/or whom are they associated in the story?
>
> - Arnach

Song of the Mounds of Mundberg.

"...to Arnach, to his own country, returned in triumph"

I think the preceding line was something like "Nor Forlong the old
ever...", as part of a long list of those lords that fell at Pelennor.

> - Bamfurlong

Farmer Maggot's farm. But I only know that because I noticed it a few
weeks ago. Wouldn't have known this before then.

> - Celos

River in southern Gondor. Legolas sings about it.

"Silver flow the streams from Celos to Erui..."

> - Ciril

Oh. River? Maybe not, as you've mentioned a few already.

I'll go with one of the beacon-hills that Gandalf points out to Pippin.

> - Fen Hollen

Possibly something to do with Hollin?
Some area near the gates of Moria?

I should remember what 'fen' means at least!

> - Durthand

I can remember a Durthang.
A fortress in Mordor.
But not a Durthand.

> - Eastlands

Hmm. East of something.

Probably somewhere in that big open space east of Anduin and Mirkwood,
and north of Mordor.

> - Gilrain (not to be confused with Gilraen)

That's definitely a river. Not sure where. Probably another one in
southern Gondor somewhere, like Celos.

> - Great Wood

Hmm. Mirkwood is a big wood. Seems too obvious though. I think this is
someone talking about Mirkwood. Either that or the wood that once
stretched from Fangorn to the Old Forest, as Elrond says about some
squirrel.

> - Irensaga

Hmmmmmmm. Total blank.

> - Limlight River

That flows into the Anduin at some point, flowing from the west into the
Anduin, possibly from Fangorn. The Fellowship talked about it. Either at
some point on the route from Lorien to Rauros, or at Rauros when talking
about the swamps below Rauros on the western banks.

> - Merethrond

It's on the tip of my tongue! Reminds me of Nargathrond. Probably
somewhere in Rohan or Gondor. For some reason I think it is a summer
retreat for Theoden.

> - Northerland

Isn't that the phrase Frodo uses in his Lament for Gandalf. No, that
phrase is 'Wilderland'. Maybe 'Northerland' is a phrase used in Bilbo's
song of Earendil?

"On high above the mists he came
A distant flame before the sun
where grey the Nor'land waters run..."

Nor'land = Northerland?

Though thinking about it, I'm sure it _is_ also used in Frodo's lament
for Gandalf:

"From Wilderland to western shore
From northern waste to southern hill..." ??

OK. Probably not. So I'll stick with the Earendil reference above.

> - Old Grange

Somewhere in the Shire. Is that close enough?

> - South Lane

Somewhere in the Shire. Or maybe in Minas Tirith. Or maybe Bree.

I'll go with Bree.

> - Tarlang's Neck

That I do remember - though again only because I noticed it a few weeks
ago when we first started perusing the index. It is a point on the
journey that Aragorn and the Grey Company make after they emerge from
under the mountains. They pass it as they journey to the Stone of Erech.

> - Underharrow

The twin of Dunharrow? So it is somewhere in Rohan.

> - World's End

That is definitely in Bilbo's song of Earendil.

"From World's End then he turned away
and yearned again to find his home
afar through shadows journeying
from east to west he passed away
unheralded he homeward sped..."

Christopher

--
---
Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard
Re: Index III. Places [message #141210 ] Mi, 28 September 2005 19:26
John Jones  
"Belba Grubb From Stock" <barbb [at] dbtech.net> wrote in message
news:11jh6k8mjn9a62e [at] corp.supernews.com...
> JRRT gives us, in Appendix F.11, an example of using real place names:
> the derivation of the names for Bree, Combe, Archet and Chetwood,
> modeled on "relics of British nomenclature." Perhaps those in the UK
> could provide modern examples of similar place names today. I find
> echoes of them in Keats' "For there's Bishops teign," with its Coomb,
> Arch Brook, and Wild Wood; and JRRT would certainly have felt
> comfortable with that poem's closing:

There's a place called Combe a few miles NW of Ox ford. 'combe/coombe'
means a valley.
'-chet' is a common part of a place name, but I don't know what it means. I
found a Chetnole in Dorset.
'Bree' means 'hill' and is a common part of place names, e.g.. Bredon Hill
(bree, down, hill!) which is close to Hilary Tolkien's farm. There is a
town called Bree in Belgium, but this is probably not relevant :o)
Re: Index III. Places [message #141261 ] Do, 29 September 2005 21:11
Pete Gray  
In article <dhekvt$2qq$2 [at] newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk>,
john [at] jones5011.fsnet.co.uk says...
> "Belba Grubb From Stock" <barbb [at] dbtech.net> wrote in message
> news:11jh6k8mjn9a62e [at] corp.supernews.com...
> > JRRT gives us, in Appendix F.11, an example of using real place names:
> > the derivation of the names for Bree, Combe, Archet and Chetwood,
> > modeled on "relics of British nomenclature." Perhaps those in the UK
> > could provide modern examples of similar place names today. I find
> > echoes of them in Keats' "For there's Bishops teign," with its Coomb,
> > Arch Brook, and Wild Wood; and JRRT would certainly have felt
> > comfortable with that poem's closing:
>
> There's a place called Combe a few miles NW of Ox ford. 'combe/coombe'
> means a valley.
> '-chet' is a common part of a place name, but I don't know what it means. I
> found a Chetnole in Dorset.
> 'Bree' means 'hill' and is a common part of place names, e.g.. Bredon Hill
> (bree, down, hill!) which is close to Hilary Tolkien's farm. There is a
> town called Bree in Belgium, but this is probably not relevant :o)
>
There's a Chetwode in Buckinghamshire, and a Chetterwood in Dorset.

Lots of names ending in '-chet'. 'Chet' means 'wood', so Chetwode would
be Woodwwood.

Eight Combes (including three in Devon!). 18 further villages starting
with 'Combe'. Numerous features, including rather wonderfully, given
that combe means valley, quite a lot of Combe Hills.

ISTR that 'Brill' is a contraction of 'Bree Hill' (ie Hill Hill), so
it's good to se that Cornwall rejoices in a Brill Hill.

Thanks to the Ordnance Survey - one of those things that makes you proud
of Britain. Find more here:
< http://www.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/oswebsite/freefun/didyouknow />

--
Pete Gray

The Curator's Egg - thinking about museums
<http://www.redbadge.co.uk/egg/>
Re: Index III. Places [message #142404 ] So, 02 Oktober 2005 13:06
Christopher Kreuzer  
Christopher Kreuzer <spamgard [at] blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
> Belba Grubb From Stock <barbb [at] dbtech.net> wrote:

Marking my answers...

>> Without looking, do you recognize what the
>> Ancient World was and where it was mentioned? (Hint: Aragorn spoke
>> of it, but not at Amon Sul--however, I know this only because I had
>> to look it up. Sigh.)
>
> I would have been completely stuck without the Aragorn hint.
> Actually, I think I am still completely stuck!
>
> Ancient World...
>
> Aha! Terror of the Ancient World?
>
> Sounds like what he said to Galadriel and Celeborn in Lothlorien:
>
> "It was both a flame and a shadow. It was a terror of the Ancient
> World, such as I have never seen before..."

"...he spoke of [...] the coming of the Terror. 'An evil of the Ancient
World it seemed, such as I have never seen before,' said Aragorn. 'It
was both a shadow and a flame, strong and terrible.'" (The Mirror of
Galadriel)

I must stop attempting to quote verbatim from memory.
It's just embarassing when it all goes ever so slightly wrong...

> And Legolas then says it was:
>
> "...a Balrog of Morgoth..."
>
> [Keats poem]
>
>> Then who would go
>> Into dark Soho
>> And chatter with dak'd-hair'd critics
>> When he can stay
>> for the new-mown hay
>> And startle the dappled prickets?
>>
>> At the least, Tolkien would have known what a dappled pricket was.
>> :-)
>
> And what about us poor unenlightened souls? :-)

Nabbed from a website:

"A pricket, my dictionary tells me, is a two year old male fallow deer
with unbranched horns."

And dappled must refer to the beautiful patterns of sunlight falling on
the patterns on the hide of the deer.

[Talking of animal hides, I have an update to the phrase that hs two
meanings and used four definitions of 'fell': "The fell fell, from the
fell fell". There is a fifth meaning of fell, closely related to the
past tense of falling, but a distinct meaning. When you knock someone
over, or kill them, you are said to have 'felled' them. Though I now
wonder if this relates to the 'fell' = lethal (hence felon) meaning?

Anyway, a new paragraph (couldn't get it as a short and sweet sentence
like the previous one):

"The kestrel fell from the sky, as it stooped on the mouse running over
the fell. The rodent vainly scurried around the high, barren, treeless
landscape, but was soon felled as the predatory bird's fell talons
pierced its fell."

Nothing to do with Tolkien or Keats. But if we can talk about dappled
prickets...]

> <snip>
>
>> Enough already. One more quiz: where are these places, and with what
>> and/or whom are they associated in the story?
>>
>> - Arnach
>
> Song of the Mounds of Mundberg.
>
> "...to Arnach, to his own country, returned in triumph"
>
> I think the preceding line was something like "Nor Forlong the old
> ever...", as part of a long list of those lords that fell at Pelennor.

In true poetic tradition, Tolkien seems to be using Arnach as a
shortened version of Lossarnach:

"...old Forlong the Fat, the Lord of Lossarnach..."

That explains why I thought Forlong was said to be fat in the poem.
Though I seem to have said he was old instead... Anyway, I should have
realised an alliterative verse would (a) not call him fat/old, and (b)
would alliterate with Forlong, hence:

"nor Forlong the old to the flowering vales
ever, to Arnach, to his own country
returned in triumph..."

But for full credit, I think it needs to be said that Arnach =
Lossarnach. Which is in the "high vales of the mountain borders", which
is where Ioreth grew up with her sisters ("I will ride to Lossarnach
with Ioreth behind me, and she shall take me to the woods, but not to
her sisters. And Shadowfax shall show her the meaning of haste.")

Interesting, when we read of the forces led from Minas Tirith to aid the
Rohirrim on the field of Pelennor, Forlong (the Lord of Lossarnach) is
included in the list, but by title only, not by name:

"But the horsemen rode eastward to the succour of Eomer: Hurin the Tall
Warden of the Keys, and the Lord of Lossarnach, and Hirluin of the Green
Hills, and Prince Imrahil the fair with his knights all about him."

And later, comes the sad denouement:

"The axes hewed Forlong as he fought alone and unhorsed..."

>> - Bamfurlong
>
> Farmer Maggot's farm. But I only know that because I noticed it a few
> weeks ago. Wouldn't have known this before then.

Actually Farmer Maggot's land, not just the farm, though there may not
be that much difference between the two.

>> - Celos
>
> River in southern Gondor. Legolas sings about it.
>
> "Silver flow the streams from Celos to Erui..."

Yup.

>> - Ciril
>
> Oh. River? Maybe not, as you've mentioned a few already.

Double bluffed myself here.

"One day of light we rode, and then came the day without dawn, and still
we rode on, and Ciril and Ringlo we crossed; and on the third day we
came to Linhir above the mouth of Gilrain." (The Last Debate)

> I'll go with one of the beacon-hills that Gandalf points out to
> Pippin.

Ooh. What were they now...
Had to look them all up, except one. :-(

Can anyone name the seven beacon hills that Gandalf names?
Without looking them up, obviously.

>> - Fen Hollen
>
> Possibly something to do with Hollin?
> Some area near the gates of Moria?
>
> I should remember what 'fen' means at least!

Got this completely wrong, though I was getting near the answer by gates
of Moria, for function at least, if not location.

>> - Durthand
>
> I can remember a Durthang.
> A fortress in Mordor.
> But not a Durthand.

Still can't find any Durthand. And the index shows plainly that this was
indeed a typo for Durthang, so I got this, but technically the question
should be discounted altogether.

>> - Eastlands
>
> Hmm. East of something.
>
> Probably somewhere in that big open space east of Anduin and Mirkwood,
> and north of Mordor.

Should have just said "Rhun". Frodo sees at the Black Gate:

"These were Men of other race, out of the wide Eastlands, gathering to
the summons of their Overlord..."

>> - Gilrain (not to be confused with Gilraen)
>
> That's definitely a river. Not sure where. Probably another one in
> southern Gondor somewhere, like Celos.

Yup. See quote above.

>> - Great Wood
>
> Hmm. Mirkwood is a big wood. Seems too obvious though. I think this is
> someone talking about Mirkwood. Either that or the wood that once
> stretched from Fangorn to the Old Forest, as Elrond says about some
> squirrel.

I should have said which one I meant here. Obviously I meant the first
one, which is correct... :-)

Didn't realise it was Legolas doing this talking, though I should have
realised that:

Gimli: "I hope to have a part in it, for the honour of the folk of the
Lonely Mountain."

Legolas: "And I for the folk of the Great Wood, and for the love of the
Lord of the White Tree."

>> - Irensaga
>
> Hmmmmmmm. Total blank.

So obviously no marks.

I wonder if 'Irensaga' translates as anything?

>> - Limlight River
>
> That flows into the Anduin at some point, flowing from the west into
> the Anduin, possibly from Fangorn. The Fellowship talked about it.
> Either at some point on the route from Lorien to Rauros, or at Rauros
> when talking about the swamps below Rauros on the western banks.

Well, rather conveniently, taking the first answer gets me a mark. But I
really didn't know which one was right, and I thought it was the second
one, so probably nothing here...

"Ere long we shall come to the mouth of the Limlight that runs down from
Fangorn to join the Great River. That is the north boundary of Rohan;
and of old all that lay between Limlight and the White Mountains
belonged to the Rohirrim."

So the Limlight, as seen on the map, is the river that flows out of the
northern part of Fangorn. The other river I was thinking of, that flows
out of southern Fangorn and meets Anduin below Rauros at the Wetwang,
is, of course, the Entwash.

>> - Merethrond
>
> It's on the tip of my tongue! Reminds me of Nargathrond. Probably
> somewhere in Rohan or Gondor. For some reason I think it is a summer
> retreat for Theoden.

Hmm. Not a summer retreat. Not even in Rohan. It's in Gondor, and
specifically in Minas Tirith. Like Fen Hollen (also in Minas Tirith), it
is a place within the city.

>> - Northerland
>
> Isn't that the phrase Frodo uses in his Lament for Gandalf. No, that
> phrase is 'Wilderland'. Maybe 'Northerland' is a phrase used in
> Bilbo's song of Earendil?

Hmm. Missed a line out of the quote.

> "On high above the mists he came
> A distant flame before the sun

[a wonder ere the waking dawn]

> where grey the Nor'land waters run..."
>
> Nor'land = Northerland?
>
> Though thinking about it, I'm sure it _is_ also used in Frodo's lament
> for Gandalf:
>
> "From Wilderland to western shore
> From northern waste to southern hill..." ??

Hey! I got this quote completely right!!

> OK. Probably not. So I'll stick with the Earendil reference above.

Unfortunately, the index has a _separate_ entry for Norland, though I
still insist that it must be a poetic shortening of Northerland!

Anyone agree or think otherwise?

The index entry for Northerland refers to Boromir's journey, and I
should have remembered this, having previously posted something about
what precisely this Northerland is, with reference to the lament for
Boromir:

"...I passed through the Gap by the skirts of the White Mountains, and
crossed the Isen and the Greyflood into Northerland." (Boromir in
'Farewell to Lorien)

"I saw him ride over seven streams, over waters wide and grey;
I saw him walk in empty lands, until he passed away
Into the shadows of the North. I saw him then no more."
(The Departure of Boromir)

Looking at the Greyflood on the map, it seems to mark the border between
Enedwaith and Minhiriath, though I seem to recall some definitions of
Eriador excluding Enedwaith, so maybe by "Northerland" Boromir is
referring to crossing the Greyflood into Eriador?

>> - Old Grange
>
> Somewhere in the Shire. Is that close enough?

Though maybe extra marks available for saying that we see it knocked
down in the 'Scouring of the Shire'?

>> - South Lane
>
> Somewhere in the Shire. Or maybe in Minas Tirith. Or maybe Bree.
>
> I'll go with Bree.

Triple bluffed myself here. It was in the Shire. You'd go down here to
get to Tom Cotton's place.

>> - Tarlang's Neck
>
> That I do remember - though again only because I noticed it a few
> weeks ago when we first started perusing the index. It is a point on
> the journey that Aragorn and the Grey Company make after they emerge
> from under the mountains. They pass it as they journey to the Stone
> of Erech.

Ahem. As they journey _from_ the Stone of Erech:

"They passed Tarlang's Neck and came into Lamedon; and the Shadow Host
pressed behind and fear went on before them..."

>> - Underharrow
>
> The twin of Dunharrow? So it is somewhere in Rohan.

Yay!

"On down the grey road they went beside the Snowbourn rushing on its
stones; through the hamlets of Underharrow and Upbourn, where many sad
faces of women looked out from dark doors..."

This is when Merry sets out with the Rohirrim from Dunharrow to Edoras.

>> - World's End
>
> That is definitely in Bilbo's song of Earendil.
>
> "From World's End then he turned away
> and yearned again to find his home
> afar through shadows journeying

Ahem. Swap "his home" and "afar".

> from east to west he passed away
> unheralded he homeward sped..."

And scrub this. It's from an earlier part of the poem.

I seem to have got about 11 out of 19. Give or take a few dubious awards
of self-marked questions! :-)

Christopher

--
---
Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard
Re: Index III. Places [message #142406 ] So, 02 Oktober 2005 13:14
Christopher Kreuzer  
Christopher Kreuzer <spamgard [at] blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

<snip>

> "...old Forlong the Fat, the Lord of Lossarnach..."
>
> That explains why I thought Forlong was said to be fat in the poem.
> Though I seem to have said he was old instead...

To avoid any possible confusion, I got confused and didn't realise that
Forlong was _both_ old and fat. I got the poem description (old) right,
but just omitted the alliterating bit (flowering vales) altogether - in
my original answer.

Even the 'fat' description includes 'old', to complete the confusion.

> Anyway, I should have realised an alliterative verse would (a) not
call
> him fat/old, and (b) would alliterate with Forlong, hence:
>
> "nor Forlong the old to the flowering vales
> ever, to Arnach, to his own country
> returned in triumph..."
Re: Index III. Places [message #142407 ] So, 02 Oktober 2005 13:20
Christopher Kreuzer  
Christopher Kreuzer <spamgard [at] blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

<snip>

>>> - Northerland
>>
>> Maybe 'Northerland' is a phrase used in
>> Bilbo's song of Earendil?
>>
>> "On high above the mists he came
>> A distant flame before the sun
>> A wonder ere the waking dawn
>> where grey the Nor'land waters run..."
>>
>> Nor'land = Northerland?

<snip>

> Unfortunately, the index has a _separate_ entry for Norland, though I
> still insist that it must be a poetic shortening of Northerland!
>
> Anyone agree or think otherwise?

Can't find anything for Norland.
Note there is no apostrophe as I thought there was.
I hope it is a variant of "Northerland".
Or maybe it is just a river?

Christopher

--
---
Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard
Re: Index III. Places [message #142424 ] Mo, 03 Oktober 2005 05:06
Steve Morrison  
Christopher Kreuzer wrote:

> >> - Irensaga
> >
> > Hmmmmmmm. Total blank.
>
> So obviously no marks.
>
> I wonder if 'Irensaga' translates as anything?

It means "Iron Saw" according to "Guide to the Names in /The Lord of
the Rings/". A bit more at this URL:

http://www.tuckborough.net/mountains.html#Irensaga
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