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Fantasy » alt.fan.tolkien » Treebeard's song
| Treebeard's song [message #138628] |
So, 25 September 2005 14:03 |
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This post is a closer look at Treebeard's song that he chants to Merry
and Pippin in the chapter 'Treebeard' from 'The Lord of the Rings'. It
starts "In the willow-meads of Tasarinan I walked in the Spring..."
To get a feel for the spellings you have to recite this poem many times,
letting the rich syllables roll around your mouth, especially with the
numerous place-names that Treebeard uses.
I love the way this poem ends: "And the years lie thicker than the
leaves
In Tauremornalómë." I've added the accents because they really bring
that final word to life, giving it a sing-song rhythm that seems to
showcase the way the Ents really loved Quenya, and how it really suited
them.
And this poem really is overflowing with strange place-names. When you
get a map from 'The Silmarillion' and look them all up, you really begin
to see that Treebeard has been around and been all over the place. But
he is also shifting around with his use of the place names, repeating
them in different languages or slightly different constructs, in related
pairs:
Tasarinan
Nan-tasarion
These two names for the same place are explained here:
"Nan-tathren - 'Willow-vale', translated as 'the Land of the Willows',
where the river Narog flowed into Sirion. In Treebeard's song [...]
Quenya forms of the name are used: 'in the willow-meads of Tasarinan;
Nan-tasarion'." (Index entry for 'Nan-tathren' from 'The Silmarillion')
And also here:
"nan(d) - 'valley' in ... Nan Tathren."
"tathar - 'willow'; adjective 'tathren' in 'Nan-tathren; Quenya 'tasarë'
in 'Tasarinan', 'Nan-tasarion' (see Nan-tathren in the Index)"
('Elements in Quenya and Sindarin names' appendix to 'The Silmarillion')
The only explanation given in the LotR index is "vale of willows" for
the entry for 'Nan-tasarion', and _nothing_ for the entry for
'Tasarinan', though it does point you to the comment made by Galadriel
to Treebeard in the chapter 'Many Partings': "Then in the willow-meads
of Tasarinan we may meet in the Spring."
Thus, purely from LotR, it is difficult to be certain that Treebeard, in
his song, is using different phrases/names for the same place. It
certainly seems, from the way he is singing, that he is doing this, and
there are plenty of clues in the similarity of the words and phrases,
but there is an air of linguistic mystery here.
I seem to remember being thrilled when I first realised that Treebeard
was repeating place names in slightly different formats/languages. And
even more thrilled when looking through the Silmarillion confirmed this.
Did anyone else have the same reaction?
Also, can anyone explain the linguistic differences between 'Tasarinan'
and 'Nan-tasarion'? Are they identical, or is one more of an adjective,
or is it just a nice thing about Quenya that can you form place names in
several different ways if you want to?
Ossiriand
Ossir
Ossiriand is glossed as 'Land of Seven Rivers', which also explains
Treebeard saying 'Seven Rivers of Ossir'. This is, again, explained in
the index entry for 'Ossiriand' in 'The Silmarillion', and again, the
index entry quotes from Treebeard' song.
The LotR index, gives "Ossiriand (Seven Rivers of Ossir)". Which does
helpfully make the link between the two phrases Treebeard uses, though
in this case it is clearer that they probably refer to the same place -
unlike the more subtle link between Tasarinan and Nan-tasarion.
Neldoreth
Taur-na-neldor
And in this case, the two phrases Treebeard uses seem linked again, by
the 'neldor' bit. The alert reader might remember that Aragorn told the
hobbits that Beren and Luthien met in Neldoreth, and the LotR index will
remind them in any case. Looking at the map in 'The Silmarillion' we see
Neldoreth in the expected place, but what is this 'Taur-na-neldor'? The
LotR index is no help, and neither is the map in 'The Silmarillion' so
we have to turn to the index in 'The Silmarillion', but remember to look
under 'Neldoreth' (since the phrasing of Treebeard's song implies that
these paired place names are in fact referring to the same place):
"Neldoreth - The great beech-forest forming the northern part of
Doriath; called Taur-na-Neldor in Treebeard's song..." (Index entry for
'Neldoreth' from 'The Silmarillion')
And numerous references in 'The Silmarillion' tell us that 'Taur' is
wood, or forest:
"taur 'wood, forest' (Quenya taure) in Tauron, Taur-im-Duinath,
Taur-nu-Fuin." ('Elements in Quenya and Sindarin names' appendix to 'The
Silmarillion')
So, again, Treebeard (or rather Tolkien) is playing around with the
words, and showing the different possibilities.
Dorthonion
Orod-na-Thôn
Again, the LotR index confirms that Dorthonion and Orod-na-Thôn are the
same place (though only if you look Dorthonion up, as there is no entry
in the index for Orod-na-Thôn), but there are no linguistic
explanations. Though the similarity of Orod-na-Thôn and Orodruin seems
to give a hint. The link between the words is also a bit more difficult,
until you realise that the common word fragment is 'thon'.
Indeed, 'orod' is explained here:
"orod 'mountain' in Orodruin, Thangorodrim; Orocarni, Oromët. Plural
ered in Ered Engrin, Ered Linden, etc." ('Elements in Quenya and
Sindarin names' appendix to 'The Silmarillion')
As is 'thôn':
"thôn 'pine-tree' in Dorthonion." ('Elements in Quenya and Sindarin
names' appendix to 'The Silmarillion')
So Treebeard is saying "Mountain covered in pine trees" or something,
which is a pretty good description of the pine-forested mountain plateau
of Dorthonion:
Incidentially, unlike the other Quenya place-names described above
(please don't tell me this is Sindarin...), this phrase 'Orod-na-Thôn'
is not explicitly explained in the index, though the by now obligatory
reference to Treebeard's song _is_ found here:
"Dorthonion 'Land of Pines', the great forested highlands on the
northern borders of Beleriand, afterwards called Taur-nu-Fuin. Cf.
Tree-beard's song [...] 'To the pine-trees upon the highland of
Dorthonion I climbed in the Winter.'" (Index entry for 'Dorthonion' from
'The Silmarillion')
....but with no reference to 'Orod-na-Thôn'!
In the final part of the poem, Treebeard seems to come back to the Third
Age, and recite a list of names that could possibly just be different
names for his own country: Fangorn. We could look at the map and index
in LotR to help with these names:
Ambaróna
Tauremorna
Aldalómë
Tauremornalómë
Not a lot of success with the map, and the only clue from the index is
that 'Tauremorna' seems to have been merged with 'Taremorna-lómë', with
the hyphen indicating that 'Tauremorna' and 'Tauremornalómë' are the
same thing. But it looks like it is back to 'The Silmarillion' to see
what these place-names mean (all quoted from 'Elements in Quenya and
Sindarin names' appendix to 'The Silmarillion'):
"alda 'tree' (Quenya) in Aldaron, Aldudénië, Malinalda, corresponding
to Sindarin galadh (seen in Caras Galadon and the Galadrim of
Lothlórien)."
"taur 'wood, forest' (Quenya taure) in Tauron, Taur-im-Duinath,
Taur-nu-Fuin."
lómë 'dusk' in Lómion, lómelindi; see dú.
dú 'night, dimness' in Deldúwath, Ephel Dúath. Derived from earlier
dömë, whence Quenya lómë; thus Sindarin dúlin 'nightingale' corresponds
to lómelindë.
mor 'dark' in Mordor, Morgoth, Moria, Moriquendi, Mormegil, Morwen,
etc.
I couldn't find 'ambar' in the Silmarillion appendix, but maybe the
meaning can be seen in this phrase:
"A Túrin Turambar turun ambartanen: master of doom by doom mastered!"
So 'ambar' might mean 'doom', but that is only part of the word
Ambaróna, so I'm stuck here.
Anyway, I would guess that the meanings are:
Ambaróna - Doomed Land
Tauremorna - Dark Forest
Aldalómë - Trees of Dusk
Tauremornalómë - Dark, Dusky Forest
Which might be Treebeard describing Fangorn.
Surely Tolkien explained all this in one place? Or someone else
explained it all, and in a more coherent way than I have? :-)
Christopher
--
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Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard
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| Re: Treebeard's song [message #138630 ] |
So, 25 September 2005 14:43 |
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Christopher Kreuzer <spamgard [at] blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>So Treebeard is saying "Mountain covered in pine trees" or something,
>which is a pretty good description of the pine-forested mountain plateau
>of Dorthonion:
>
>Incidentially, unlike the other Quenya place-names described above
>(please don't tell me this is Sindarin...), [...]
Ah. Dorthonion and Neldoreth are Sindarin, yes.
>So 'ambar' might mean 'doom', but that is only part of the word
>Ambaróna, so I'm stuck here.
'ambar' can be 'doom' or 'earth', but I think this word is probably the
same as 'Ambarone' in the Etymologies, which can mean 'Orient'.
-M-
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| Re: Treebeard's song [message #138631 ] |
So, 25 September 2005 15:05 |
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Matthew Woodcraft <mattheww [at] chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
> Christopher Kreuzer <spamgard [at] blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> So Treebeard is saying "Mountain covered in pine trees" or something,
>> which is a pretty good description of the pine-forested mountain
>> plateau of Dorthonion:
>>
>> Incidentially, unlike the other Quenya place-names described above
>> (please don't tell me this is Sindarin...), [...]
>
> Ah. Dorthonion and Neldoreth are Sindarin, yes.
Wonderful! So I now have a foolproof way to tell them apart. Make a
random guess and then pick the other one...
Some of them are Quenya, surely? Or Sindarin words that are closely
related to their Quenya roots?
>> So 'ambar' might mean 'doom', but that is only part of the word
>> Ambaróna, so I'm stuck here.
>
> 'ambar' can be 'doom' or 'earth', but I think this word is probably
> the same as 'Ambarone' in the Etymologies, which can mean 'Orient'.
Thanks! That makes a lot of sense: Treebeard saying he is now to the
east of Beleriand.
Ooh. My random .sig generator has a relevant quote!
Christopher
--
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Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard
"Then Treebeard said farewell to each of them in turn, and he bowed
three times slowly and with great reverence to Celeborn and Galadriel.
'It is long, long since we met by stock or by stone, A vanimar,
vanimalion nostari!' he said. 'It is sad that we should meet only thus
at the ending. For the world is changing: I feel it in the water, I
feel it in the earth, and I smell it in the air. I do not think we
shall meet again.' But Galadriel said: 'Not in Middle-earth, nor until
the lands that lie under the wave are lifted up again. Then in the
willow-meads of Tasarinan we may meet in the Spring. Farewell!'" -
Treebeard's farewell (Many Partings, RotK)
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| Re: Treebeard's song [message #138634 ] |
So, 25 September 2005 16:57 |
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[Snip snippety snip]
"Christopher Kreuzer" <spamgard [at] blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in
news:jmwZe.115350$G8.31657 [at] text.news.blueyonder.co.uk:
>
> Also, can anyone explain the linguistic differences between
> 'Tasarinan' and 'Nan-tasarion'? Are they identical, or is one more
> of an adjective, or is it just a nice thing about Quenya that can
> you form place names in several different ways if you want to?
Tasarinan = Willowvale?
Nan-tasarion = Vale of willows?
--
Cheers, ymt.
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| Re: Treebeard's song [message #138635 ] |
So, 25 September 2005 17:01 |
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"Christopher Kreuzer" <spamgard [at] blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in
news:tgxZe.115380$G8.67345 [at] text.news.blueyonder.co.uk:
> Matthew Woodcraft <mattheww [at] chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>> Christopher Kreuzer <spamgard [at] blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> So Treebeard is saying "Mountain covered in pine trees" or
>>> something, which is a pretty good description of the
>>> pine-forested mountain plateau of Dorthonion:
>>>
>>> Incidentially, unlike the other Quenya place-names described
>>> above (please don't tell me this is Sindarin...), [...]
>>
>> Ah. Dorthonion and Neldoreth are Sindarin, yes.
>
> Wonderful! So I now have a foolproof way to tell them apart. Make
> a random guess and then pick the other one...
The -th should have alerted you to their Sindarin origin.
--
Cheers, ymt.
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| Re: Treebeard's song [message #138637 ] |
So, 25 September 2005 19:11 |
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I'm just wondering, what the hell is Spamgard?
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| Re: Treebeard's song [message #138641 ] |
So, 25 September 2005 20:01 |
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Mumakil Trainer <shagrat_13 [at] hotmail.com> wrote:
> I'm just wondering, what the hell is Spamgard?
Something Treebeard and the other Ents destroyed.
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| Re: Treebeard's song [message #138643 ] |
So, 25 September 2005 22:30 |
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Mumakil Trainer (or somebody else of the same name) wrote thusly in message
<1127668297.488990.47730 [at] z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>:
> I'm just wondering, what the hell is Spamgard?
It's like the instructions I put in my sig for anybody who wants to reply to
me. Spambots have evolved to the point where simple instructions along the
lines of "replace foo with bar to reply" can be recognised and acted upon.
The antispam instructions now need to be a lot more indirect.
Context tells a human that "Spamgard" is wrong, and the clues in the sig
will lead the intelligent reader to the correct replacement word. Currently
such tasks are beyond spambots but watch this space.
(Future spambot reasoning to itself: "Surely it's the spiders, not the
bananas, that do the biting - can we construct Prai Jei's real email
address by rearranging the words?")
--
There are very few spiders found on bananas that bite.
Interchange the alphabetic letter groups to reply
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| Re: Treebeard's song [message #139054 ] |
Mo, 26 September 2005 12:04 |
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Christopher Kreuzer <spamgard [at] blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
> Ossiriand is glossed as 'Land of Seven Rivers', which also explains
> Treebeard saying 'Seven Rivers of Ossir'.
And Ossir means "Seven Rivers" from /sir/ "river", and /otso/ "seven".
So he is really saying "The Seven Rivers of the Seven Rivers" :-)
Like "Bree Hill" is really "Hill Hill".
> So 'ambar' might mean 'doom', but that is only part of the word
> Ambaróna, so I'm stuck here.
The Etymologies have Q /umbar/ for "doom" (under MBARAT), but
apparently Tolkien wrote Turambar over Turumbar. For ambar, there is
also Q ambaron "Orient" under AM(2), and "Oikoumene, Earth" under MBAR.
Compare "... tenn' Ambar-metta", "... unto the ending of the world",
when Aragorn quotes Elendil.
As I am not a specialist in Tolkiens languages, I cannot sort out
this mess for you :-)
> Anyway, I would guess that the meanings are:
>
> Ambaróna - Doomed Land
> Tauremorna - Dark Forest
> Aldalómë - Trees of Dusk
> Tauremornalómë - Dark, Dusky Forest
>
> Which might be Treebeard describing Fangorn.
>
> Surely Tolkien explained all this in one place? Or someone else
> explained it all, and in a more coherent way than I have? :-)
In Appendix E, Tolkien writes
The strange words and names that the Hobbits record as used by Treebeard
and other Ents are thus Elvish, or fragments of Elf-speech strung together
in Ent-fashion.[88] Some are Quenya: as Taurelilómëa-tumbalemorna
Tumbaletaerëa Lómëanor, which may be rendered 'Forestmanyshadowed-
deepvalleyblack Deepvalleyforested Gloomyland', and by which Treebeard
meant, more or less: 'there is a black shadow in the deep dales of the
forest'.
That's similar to the way he makes up different names for Fangorn.
There is also a paragraph in letter #230. BTW, in German, where nouns
are still agglomerative, these names would make perfect sense, though
one would probably change the order: Dunkelwald, Nachtbaum, Dunkelnachtwald.
Very poetic :-)
I also think that Entish is inspired somewhat by Anglo-Saxon, which
sometimes seems to use nouns and adjectives in a similar agglomerative way.
- Dirk
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| Re: Treebeard's song [message #140118 ] |
Mo, 26 September 2005 21:32 |
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Dirk Thierbach <dthierbach [at] usenet.arcornews.de> wrote:
> Christopher Kreuzer <spamgard [at] blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> Ossiriand is glossed as 'Land of Seven Rivers', which also explains
>> Treebeard saying 'Seven Rivers of Ossir'.
>
> And Ossir means "Seven Rivers" from /sir/ "river", and /otso/ "seven".
> So he is really saying "The Seven Rivers of the Seven Rivers" :-)
> Like "Bree Hill" is really "Hill Hill".
I found a similar number-reference in the way 'Neldoreth' was formed
from the word for the number three:
"neldor 'beech' in Neldoreth; but it seems that this was properly the
name of Hirilorn, the great beech-tree with three trunks (nelde 'three'
and orn)." (Appendix to 'The Silmarillion')
>> So 'ambar' might mean 'doom', but that is only part of the word
>> Ambaróna, so I'm stuck here.
>
> The Etymologies have Q /umbar/ for "doom" (under MBARAT), but
> apparently Tolkien wrote Turambar over Turumbar. For ambar, there is
> also Q ambaron "Orient" under AM(2), and "Oikoumene, Earth" under
> MBAR.
>
> Compare "... tenn' Ambar-metta", "... unto the ending of the world",
> when Aragorn quotes Elendil.
Should have remembered that one! Thanks.
> As I am not a specialist in Tolkiens languages, I cannot sort out
> this mess for you :-)
I'm no specialist either, but 'Ambaróna' looks closer to 'ambaron' than
'ambar' by itself, so I'm going with the 'East' (or 'Orient')
interpretation.
>> Anyway, I would guess that the meanings are:
>>
>> Ambaróna - Doomed Land
>> Tauremorna - Dark Forest
>> Aldalómë - Trees of Dusk
>> Tauremornalómë - Dark, Dusky Forest
>>
>> Which might be Treebeard describing Fangorn.
>>
>> Surely Tolkien explained all this in one place? Or someone else
>> explained it all, and in a more coherent way than I have? :-)
>
> In Appendix E, Tolkien writes
>
> The strange words and names that the Hobbits record as used by
> Treebeard and other Ents are thus Elvish, or fragments of
> Elf-speech strung together in Ent-fashion.[88] Some are Quenya: as
> Taurelilómëa-tumbalemorna Tumbaletaerëa Lómëanor, which may be
> rendered 'Forestmanyshadowed- deepvalleyblack Deepvalleyforested
> Gloomyland', and by which Treebeard meant, more or less: 'there is
> a black shadow in the deep dales of the forest'.
I was trying to remember where I had seen this. Thanks for pointing it
out. A lot of the meanings and words match up, so the reader who does
not have to have access to 'The Silmarillion', could, from this bit you
have quoted, work out what Tauremorna, and Tauremornalome mean, and at
least part of Aldalome, though Ambarona is still problematic.
<snip rest>
Christopher
--
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Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard
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| Re: Treebeard's song [message #140138 ] |
Di, 27 September 2005 02:29 |
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On Mon, 26 Sep 2005 12:04:22 +0200, Dirk Thierbach
<dthierbach [at] usenet.arcornews.de> wrote:
>
>I also think that Entish is inspired somewhat by Anglo-Saxon, which
>sometimes seems to use nouns and adjectives in a similar agglomerative way.
>
That's a hysterical comment, coming as it does from a German .......
the softrat
Unless Barad-dur is rebuilt, twice as evil as before, Frodo has triumphed!
mailto:softrat [at] pobox.com
--
Of all the people I've met you're certainly one of them.
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| Re: Treebeard's song [message #142839 ] |
Mo, 03 Oktober 2005 18:28 |
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Christopher Kreuzer wrote:
>
> This post is a closer look at Treebeard's song that he chants to Merry
> and Pippin in the chapter 'Treebeard' from 'The Lord of the Rings'. It
> starts "In the willow-meads of Tasarinan I walked in the Spring..."
<snip>
Very little in the Letters but I don't have time to search very far.
230 From a letter fo Rhona Bare 8 June 1961
[answerign various questions about The Lord of the Rings]
Vol. II, p. 70 (2). Treebeard was not using Entish sounds on this
occassion, but using ancient Elvish words mixed up and run together in
Entish fassion. The elements are "laure", gold, not the metal but the
colour, what we should call golden light: "ndor, nor", land, country:
"lin, lind-", a musical sound: "malina", yellow: "orne", tree: "lor",
dream: "nan, nand-", valley. So that roughly he means: "The valley where
the trees in a golden light sing musically, a land of music and dreams;
there are yellow trees there, it is a tree-yellow land". The same applies
to the last line on that page (3), where the elements are "taure",
forest: "tumba", deep valley: "mor", darkness: "lóme", light.
247 to Colonel Worksketh
a note at the bottom of hte page, which may or may not be from the letter
in question says:
"Tasarinan, Ossiriand, Neldoreth, Dorthonion were all regions of
Beleriand, famous in tales of the War."
Later.
M.
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