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Fantasy » alt.fan.tolkien » Lion Witch Wardrobe movie to premiere Dec. 7
Lion Witch Wardrobe movie to premiere Dec. 7 [message #138519] Fr, 23 September 2005 14:44
Modemac  
So the latest film version of ''The Lion, The Witch, and the Wardrobe''
will have its world premiere in London on December 7:


http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20050923/fil m_nm/film_narnia_dc

(Hmm...a fantasy film based on a best-selling book by J.R.R. Tolkien's
best friend -- filmed in New Zealand, no less...)
Re: Lion Witch Wardrobe movie to premiere Dec. 7 [message #138538 ] Fr, 23 September 2005 18:47
rgorman  
On 23 Sep 2005 05:44:55 -0700, "Modemac" <modemac [at] gmail.com> wrote:

>So the latest film version of ''The Lion, The Witch, and the Wardrobe''
>will have its world premiere in London on December 7:
>
>
> http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20050923/fil m_nm/film_narnia_dc
>
>(Hmm...a fantasy film based on a best-selling book by J.R.R. Tolkien's
>best friend -- filmed in New Zealand, no less...)

Given the chunk of New Zealand's economy that disappeared when they
stopped making LOTR movies, I'm not surprised that they looked for
something similar.

>
Re: Lion Witch Wardrobe movie to premiere Dec. 7 [message #138540 ] Fr, 23 September 2005 19:25
Prai Jei  
David Johnston (or somebody else of the same name) wrote thusly in message
<4333d904.62438314 [at] news.telusplanet.net>:

> On 23 Sep 2005 05:44:55 -0700, "Modemac" <modemac [at] gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>So the latest film version of ''The Lion, The Witch, and the Wardrobe''
>>will have its world premiere in London on December 7:
>>
>>
>> http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20050923/fil m_nm/film_narnia_dc
>>
>>(Hmm...a fantasy film based on a best-selling book by J.R.R. Tolkien's
>>best friend -- filmed in New Zealand, no less...)
>
> Given the chunk of New Zealand's economy that disappeared when they
> stopped making LOTR movies, I'm not surprised that they looked for
> something similar.

Next stop the Deryni novels of Katharine Kurtz?
--
There are very few spiders found on bananas that bite.

Interchange the alphabetic letter groups to reply
Re: Lion Witch Wardrobe movie to premiere Dec. 7 [message #138546 ] Fr, 23 September 2005 21:04
tenworld  
1. Prai Jei Sep 23, 10:25 am show options

Newsgroups: rec.arts.movies.current-films, rec.arts.sf.movies,
alt.fan.tolkien, alt.books.deryni
Followup-To:
rec.arts.movies.current-films,alt.fan.tolkien,alt.books.dery ni
From: Prai Jei <pvstowns... [at] zyx-abc.fsnet.co.uk> - Find messages by
this author
Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 18:25:29 +0100
Local: Fri, Sep 23 2005 10:25 am
Subject: Re: Lion Witch Wardrobe movie to premiere Dec. 7
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David Johnston (or somebody else of the same name) wrote thusly in
message
<4333d904.62438... [at] news.telusplanet.net>:



> On 23 Sep 2005 05:44:55 -0700, "Modemac" <mode... [at] gmail.com> wrote:

>>So the latest film version of ''The Lion, The Witch, and the Wardrobe''
>>will have its world premiere in London on December 7:


>> http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20050923/fil m_nm/film_nar...


>>(Hmm...a fantasy film based on a best-selling book by J.R.R. Tolkien's
>>best friend -- filmed in New Zealand, no less...)


> Given the chunk of New Zealand's economy that disappeared when they
> stopped making LOTR movies, I'm not surprised that they looked for
> something similar.



Next stop the Deryni novels of Katharine Kurtz?
--
There are very few spiders found on bananas that bite.

I have never seen a banana that bites. is this like the panda that
eats shoots and leaves?
Re: Lion Witch Wardrobe movie to premiere Dec. 7 [message #138550 ] Sa, 24 September 2005 00:33
Derek Janssen  
David Johnston wrote:

>>So the latest film version of ''The Lion, The Witch, and the Wardrobe''
>>will have its world premiere in London on December 7:
>>
>> http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20050923/fil m_nm/film_narnia_dc
>>
>>(Hmm...a fantasy film based on a best-selling book by J.R.R. Tolkien's
>>best friend -- filmed in New Zealand, no less...)
>
> Given the chunk of New Zealand's economy that disappeared when they
> stopped making LOTR movies, I'm not surprised that they looked for
> something similar.

....Um, we're blaming a *country* for cloning a WETA hit down to the last
armor breastplate, and not Disney?

Derek Janssen (sometimes, you have to go with the easier suspect)
djanss [at] charter.net
Re: Lion Witch Wardrobe movie to premiere Dec. 7 [message #138552 ] Fr, 23 September 2005 21:36
the softrat  
On Fri, 23 Sep 2005 16:47:17 GMT, rgorman [at] block.net (David Johnston)
wrote:

>Given the chunk of New Zealand's economy that disappeared when they
>stopped making LOTR movies, I'm not surprised that they looked for
>something similar.

Is *that* why the price of lamb went up?

the softrat
Unless Barad-dur is rebuilt, twice as evil as before, Frodo has triumphed!
mailto:softrat [at] pobox.com
--
42.7% of all statistics are made up on the spot. -- Steven Wright
Re: Lion Witch Wardrobe movie to premiere Dec. 7 [message #138559 ] Fr, 23 September 2005 22:42
Derek Broughton  
tenworld wrote:

> 1. Prai Jei Sep 23, 10:25 am show options
>
> Newsgroups: rec.arts.movies.current-films, rec.arts.sf.movies,
> alt.fan.tolkien, alt.books.deryni
> Followup-To:
> rec.arts.movies.current-films,alt.fan.tolkien,alt.books.dery ni

Ack! Some people manage to make the google experience even worse...
--
derek
Re: Lion Witch Wardrobe movie to premiere Dec. 7 [message #138561 ] Sa, 24 September 2005 03:58
Derek Janssen  
Derek Broughton wrote:

> tenworld wrote:
>
>
>> 1. Prai Jei Sep 23, 10:25 am show options
>>
>>Newsgroups: rec.arts.movies.current-films, rec.arts.sf.movies,
>>alt.fan.tolkien, alt.books.deryni
>>Followup-To:
>> rec.arts.movies.current-films,alt.fan.tolkien,alt.books.dery ni
>
>
> Ack! Some people manage to make the google experience even worse...

Oh, but he was only *parodying* Disney's Tolkien-cloning, by making fun
of the whole spate of "Peter Jackson should direct [insert obscure
core-fantasy author here] next!" threads that drove us up the wall after
the first LOTR came out....

(...Er, he *was* parodying, right? Please tell us he was.)

Derek Janssen
djanss [at] charter.net
Arachnivorous fruit (Re: Lion Witch Wardrobe movie to premiere Dec. 7) [message #138595 ] Sa, 24 September 2005 18:37
Prai Jei  
tenworld (or somebody else of the same name) wrote thusly in message
<1127502277.553928.130890 [at] z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>:

>> There are very few spiders found on bananas that bite.
>
> I have never seen a banana that bites. is this like the panda that
> eats shoots and leaves?

This was a misplaced relative clause found in one of our better-quality
national newspapers a few weeks ago. The context is where a shopper in a
supermarket received a nasty bite, requiring hospital treatment, from a
bunch of bananas where the supermarket had unintentionally included a live
spider as a freebie. (Fortunately she survived.) The critter in question
was not a tarantula, and it was the report of the quest to find out what
species it was, that included that comment from an expert on the subject.
It was eventually identified as some beastie from the Amazon rainforests.
--
There are very few spiders found on bananas that bite.

Interchange the alphabetic letter groups to reply
Re: Lion Witch Wardrobe movie to premiere Dec. 7 [message #138598 ] Sa, 24 September 2005 20:24
Sionnach  
"Derek Janssen" wrote:

> > Given the chunk of New Zealand's economy that disappeared when they
> > stopped making LOTR movies, I'm not surprised that they looked for
> > something similar.
>
> ...Um, we're blaming a *country* for cloning a WETA hit down to the >last
armor breastplate, and not Disney?

Er - have you seen "The Lion <etc>", to support your statement that it's a
"clone of LOTR"?
The books are wildly dissimilar, not least because the Lewis book
essentially involves travel to an alternate universe by schoolchildren from
the "real world".
Re: Lion Witch Wardrobe movie to premiere Dec. 7 [message #138599 ] Sa, 24 September 2005 23:55
Derek Janssen  
Sionnach wrote:

> "Derek Janssen" wrote:
>
>
>>>Given the chunk of New Zealand's economy that disappeared when they
>>>stopped making LOTR movies, I'm not surprised that they looked for
>>>something similar.
>>
>>...Um, we're blaming a *country* for cloning a WETA hit down to the >last
>
> armor breastplate, and not Disney?
>
> Er - have you seen "The Lion <etc>", to support your statement that it's a
> "clone of LOTR"?

Just the trailers:
http://www.apple.com/trailers/disney/thechroniclesofnarnia/

(But I'm sorry, I'm interrupting...Go ahead with what you were saying,
about how it probably won't look like Peter Jackson.)

Derek Janssen
djanss [at] charter.net
Re: Lion Witch Wardrobe movie to premiere Dec. 7 [message #138608 ] So, 25 September 2005 03:39
the softrat  
On Sat, 24 Sep 2005 14:55:36 -0700, Derek Janssen
<djanss [at] nospam.charter.net> wrote:

>Sionnach wrote:
>
>> Er - have you seen "The Lion <etc>", to support your statement that it's a
>> "clone of LOTR"?
>
>Just the trailers:
>http://www.apple.com/trailers/disney/thechroniclesofnarnia/
>
>(But I'm sorry, I'm interrupting...Go ahead with what you were saying,
>about how it probably won't look like Peter Jackson.)
>
I *like* it so far......

I wonder how they managed to cut out all of the Christianity? ("the
unimportant bits", of course)

And yes it does have a 'feel' like PJ's LotR. Hopefully they didn't
murder the story and setting as badly.

the softrat
Unless Barad-dur is rebuilt, twice as evil as before, Frodo has triumphed!
mailto:softrat [at] pobox.com
--
"It would seem that you have no useful skill or talent whatsoever," he
said. "Have you thought of going into teaching?"
- (Terry Pratchett, Mort)
Re: Lion Witch Wardrobe movie to premiere Dec. 7 [message #138611 ] So, 25 September 2005 07:09
Derek Janssen  
the softrat wrote:

>>> Er - have you seen "The Lion <etc>", to support your statement that it's a
>>>"clone of LOTR"?
>>
>>Just the trailers:
>>http://www.apple.com/trailers/disney/thechroniclesofnarnia/
>>
>>(But I'm sorry, I'm interrupting...Go ahead with what you were saying,
>>about how it probably won't look like Peter Jackson.)
>
> I *like* it so far......
>
> I wonder how they managed to cut out all of the Christianity? ("the
> unimportant bits", of course)

(The *best* readers of the story don't care.) :)

> And yes it does have a 'feel' like PJ's LotR.

....Gee, wonder if hiring the exact same CGI department, miniatures team,
art directors and weapons designers, and filming on the same locations
had anything to do with it?

Derek Janssen (remember, this is Disney--If somebody else owns it,
they'll make their own)
djanss [at] charter.net
Re: Lion Witch Wardrobe movie to premiere Dec. 7 [message #138614 ] So, 25 September 2005 05:26
donnellaf  
the softrat wrote:
> On Sat, 24 Sep 2005 14:55:36 -0700, Derek Janssen
> <djanss [at] nospam.charter.net> wrote:
>
>
>>Sionnach wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Er - have you seen "The Lion <etc>", to support your statement that it's a
>>>"clone of LOTR"?
>>
>>Just the trailers:
>>http://www.apple.com/trailers/disney/thechroniclesofnarnia/
>>
>>(But I'm sorry, I'm interrupting...Go ahead with what you were saying,
>>about how it probably won't look like Peter Jackson.)
>>
>
> I *like* it so far......
>
> I wonder how they managed to cut out all of the Christianity? ("the
> unimportant bits", of course)

I hope they haven't managed to cut out all of the Christianity (since
that's one of the main themes)....

But it does look very good so far.....


Andy
Re: Lion Witch Wardrobe movie to premiere Dec. 7 [message #139037 ] Mo, 26 September 2005 02:26
Flame of the West  
Modemac wrote:

> (Hmm...a fantasy film based on a best-selling book by J.R.R. Tolkien's
> best friend -- filmed in New Zealand, no less...)

Don't say that here in AFT - most of the people
will decide in advance that they HATE it!


-- FotW

Coming soon: Windows VISTA (Viruses, Infections, Spyware,
Trojans, Adware)
Re: Lion Witch Wardrobe movie to premiere Dec. 7 [message #140099 ] Mo, 26 September 2005 13:11
Ken from Chicago  
"David Johnston" <rgorman [at] block.net> wrote in message
news:4333d904.62438314 [at] news.telusplanet.net...
> On 23 Sep 2005 05:44:55 -0700, "Modemac" <modemac [at] gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>So the latest film version of ''The Lion, The Witch, and the Wardrobe''
>>will have its world premiere in London on December 7:
>>
>>
>> http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20050923/fil m_nm/film_narnia_dc
>>
>>(Hmm...a fantasy film based on a best-selling book by J.R.R. Tolkien's
>>best friend -- filmed in New Zealand, no less...)
>
> Given the chunk of New Zealand's economy that disappeared when they
> stopped making LOTR movies, I'm not surprised that they looked for
> something similar.
>
>>
>

HEY! Someone had to fill in when Xena left.

-- Ken from Chicago
Re: Lion Witch Wardrobe movie to premiere Dec. 7 [message #140114 ] Mo, 26 September 2005 20:32
George Peatty  
On Sun, 25 Sep 2005 20:26:22 -0400, Flame of the West
<FotW [at] NOSPAMsolinas.org> wrote:

>Don't say that here in AFT - most of the people
>will decide in advance that they HATE it!

I have already made that decision. A movie of the Chronicles of Narnia
without its Christian elements is not about Lewis's book, and not worth
seeing.
Re: Lion Witch Wardrobe movie to premiere Dec. 7 [message #140119 ] Mo, 26 September 2005 21:43
Invid Fan  
In article <mifgj1tkt8aq6est4acvv6dtjqh30riaks [at] 4ax.com>, George Peatty
<pttyg47-1230 [at] copper.net> wrote:

> On Sun, 25 Sep 2005 20:26:22 -0400, Flame of the West
> <FotW [at] NOSPAMsolinas.org> wrote:
>
> >Don't say that here in AFT - most of the people
> >will decide in advance that they HATE it!
>
> I have already made that decision. A movie of the Chronicles of Narnia
> without its Christian elements is not about Lewis's book, and not worth
> seeing.

Then again, I read the books as a young teen and didn't see any
Christian elements. I admit I didn't look, and didn't discover Lewis's
other writings until I became non-Christian. So, it's going to depend
on what's removed and if it was important to the story. Gonna have to
watch the UK tv series to see if that seems "christian"...

--
Chris Mack "Refugee, total shit. That's how I've always seen us.
'Invid Fan' Not a help, you'll admit, to agreement between us."
-'Deal/No Deal', CHESS
Re: Lion Witch Wardrobe movie to premiere Dec. 7 [message #140122 ] Mo, 26 September 2005 22:14
The PhAnToM  
Invid Fan wrote:
> In article <mifgj1tkt8aq6est4acvv6dtjqh30riaks [at] 4ax.com>, George Peatty
> <pttyg47-1230 [at] copper.net> wrote:
>
> > On Sun, 25 Sep 2005 20:26:22 -0400, Flame of the West
> > <FotW [at] NOSPAMsolinas.org> wrote:
> >
> > >Don't say that here in AFT - most of the people
> > >will decide in advance that they HATE it!
> >
> > I have already made that decision. A movie of the Chronicles of Narnia
> > without its Christian elements is not about Lewis's book, and not worth
> > seeing.
>
> Then again, I read the books as a young teen and didn't see any
> Christian elements. I admit I didn't look, and didn't discover Lewis's
> other writings until I became non-Christian. So, it's going to depend
> on what's removed and if it was important to the story. Gonna have to
> watch the UK tv series to see if that seems "christian"...

Well, Aslan _could_ have been a lamb, but then that would have been
kind of funny given the types of villian creatures in the story, as
well as too obvious.

Lion creates world, sacrifices self to save it; is resurrected. If the
viewer or reader is looking for a Christian theme, then that the big
one. If the same person is not looking for said theme, then he or she
won't find it. Christians and anti-Christians who are making a big deal
out of it either way are being immature (present company excluded). It
can still be enjoyed whether one "gets" it or not, I think. It will be
the jackasses who may ruin the experience.
Re: Lion Witch Wardrobe movie to premiere Dec. 7 [message #140123 ] Di, 27 September 2005 01:43
Derek Janssen  
The PhAnToM wrote:

> Invid Fan wrote:
>
>>>>Don't say that here in AFT - most of the people
>>>>will decide in advance that they HATE it!
>>>
>>>I have already made that decision. A movie of the Chronicles of Narnia
>>>without its Christian elements is not about Lewis's book, and not worth
>>>seeing.

(So, already lined up, we have the people who already know ahead of time
that it's going to be Loaded With Christian Content and want to push the
B.O., and those who already know ahead of time that They Cut It All Out
and want to raise a ruckus...
Gee, I must've missed a few screenings.)

>>Then again, I read the books as a young teen and didn't see any
>>Christian elements. I admit I didn't look, and didn't discover Lewis's
>>other writings until I became non-Christian. So, it's going to depend
>>on what's removed and if it was important to the story. Gonna have to
>>watch the UK tv series to see if that seems "christian"...
>
> Well, Aslan _could_ have been a lamb, but then that would have been
> kind of funny given the types of villian creatures in the story, as
> well as too obvious.

(As it certainly was at the end of the third book...)

> Lion creates world, sacrifices self to save it; is resurrected. If the
> viewer or reader is looking for a Christian theme, then that the big
> one. If the same person is not looking for said theme, then he or she
> won't find it. Christians and anti-Christians who are making a big deal
> out of it either way are being immature (present company excluded). It
> can still be enjoyed whether one "gets" it or not, I think. It will be
> the jackasses who may ruin the experience.

The secret--which Lewis wasn't particularly dim about, and even flat-out
SAYS as much in one of the books--is that kids first discover
spirituality in the form of fairy-tale virtue...
If readers grow up vicariously considering one's self loyal to Aslan, or
Hogwarts, or Lothlorien, or remembers not to break the fairy's
instructions for rescuing the princess, just for the sake of "getting
into the story", the idea of grasping slightly unbelievable
arbiter-of-good forces in our *own* world--also for loyalty's sake of
"being on the good guys' team"--becomes that much second-nature without
having to think about it.

....And that it's only boring old grownups who think that Allegory X HAS
to = Pithy-Meaning Y, In Case You Don't Get It.

Derek Janssen
djanss [at] charter.net
Re: Lion Witch Wardrobe movie to premiere Dec. 7 [message #140128 ] Mo, 26 September 2005 23:52
Jette Goldie  
On Mon, 26 Sep 2005 19:32:29 +0100, George Peatty
<pttyg47-1230 [at] copper.net> wrote:

> On Sun, 25 Sep 2005 20:26:22 -0400, Flame of the West
> <FotW [at] NOSPAMsolinas.org> wrote:
>
>> Don't say that here in AFT - most of the people
>> will decide in advance that they HATE it!
>
> I have already made that decision. A movie of the Chronicles of Narnia
> without its Christian elements is not about Lewis's book, and not worth
> seeing.

1) how do you know without seeing it that the so-called "Christian
elements" are missing?
2) what "Christian elements"? Having read those books many times I know
there are more Pagan elements than Christian ones in them.



--
Jette Goldie
jette.goldie [at] gmail.com
http://www.jette.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/
http://www.livejournal.com/users/wolfette/
Re: Lion Witch Wardrobe movie to premiere Dec. 7 [message #140130 ] Di, 27 September 2005 00:13
George Peatty  
On Mon, 26 Sep 2005 21:52:11 GMT, "Jette Goldie" <jette [at] blueyonder.co.uk>
wrote:

>1) how do you know without seeing it that the so-called "Christian
>elements" are missing?
>2) what "Christian elements"? Having read those books many times I know
>there are more Pagan elements than Christian ones in them.

Second point first. From a C. S. Lewis website:

" C. S. Lewis, a well-known author and apologist, is best known by people of
all ages for his seven volume series entitled The Chronicles of Narnia. As
Lewis wrote about the land of Narnia, an imaginary world visited by children
of this world, he had two obvious purposes: to entertain the readers and to
suggest analogies of the Christian faith. Although some feel that his
stories are violent, Lewis is successful at using fiction to open peoples'
hearts to accepting Christ as their Savior because he first entertains the
audience with a wonderful story."

In case you missed it: "Lewis is successful at using fiction to open
peoples' hearts to accepting Christ as their Savior"

As for the first point:

In today's world where Christian witness is labeled as *imposing* one's
beliefs, no studio in its right financial mind would risk the backlash of a
boycott by including those elements. Better in their mind to piss off the
Christians than the secularists. At least by defenestrating the story of
its Christian elements, they can maintain the charade of objectivity or
neutrality.
Re: Lion Witch Wardrobe movie to premiere Dec. 7 [message #140131 ] Di, 27 September 2005 00:57
Invid Fan  
In article <4bsgj1pd3iqkcf4cdq2hmqb9dvggqo9p2o [at] 4ax.com>, George Peatty
<pttyg47-1230 [at] copper.net> wrote:

> On Mon, 26 Sep 2005 21:52:11 GMT, "Jette Goldie" <jette [at] blueyonder.co.uk>
> wrote:
>
> >1) how do you know without seeing it that the so-called "Christian
> >elements" are missing?
> >2) what "Christian elements"? Having read those books many times I know
> >there are more Pagan elements than Christian ones in them.
>
> Second point first. From a C. S. Lewis website:
>

> In case you missed it: "Lewis is successful at using fiction to open
> peoples' hearts to accepting Christ as their Savior"
>
Yes, that's what's written on the site. However given how many elements
of Christianity are borrowed from Pagen beliefs (who borrowed them from
older religions, and so on), it's a matter of what you're looking for.
Jette saw the pagen stuff.

> As for the first point:
>
> In today's world where Christian witness is labeled as *imposing* one's
> beliefs, no studio in its right financial mind would risk the backlash of a
> boycott by including those elements. Better in their mind to piss off the
> Christians than the secularists. At least by defenestrating the story of
> its Christian elements, they can maintain the charade of objectivity or
> neutrality.
>
But if in the first book the main christian stuff is the sacrifice of
Aslan, then it'll still be there. It's core plot, and the books are
thin enough that if anything you have to add stuff to get it to movie
length :) My reading is they're just not going to play up the Christian
part.

--
Chris Mack "Refugee, total shit. That's how I've always seen us.
'Invid Fan' Not a help, you'll admit, to agreement between us."
-'Deal/No Deal', CHESS
Re: Lion Witch Wardrobe movie to premiere Dec. 7 [message #140136 ] Di, 27 September 2005 01:52
George Peatty  
On Mon, 26 Sep 2005 18:57:45 -0400, Invid Fan <invid [at] localnet.com> wrote:

>Yes, that's what's written on the site. However given how many elements
>of Christianity are borrowed from Pagen beliefs (who borrowed them from
>older religions, and so on), it's a matter of what you're looking for.
>Jette saw the pagen stuff.

The issue of who borrowed from whom is not so clear as you imply. I'm
inclined to believe it is the pagans that borrowed from Christianity not the
other way around.
Re: Lion Witch Wardrobe movie to premiere Dec. 7 [message #140139 ] Di, 27 September 2005 02:51
Invid Fan  
In article <ra2hj1pbuns65151u694vpu3c4u8rvan5l [at] 4ax.com>, George Peatty
<pttyg47-1230 [at] copper.net> wrote:

> On Mon, 26 Sep 2005 18:57:45 -0400, Invid Fan <invid [at] localnet.com> wrote:
>
> >Yes, that's what's written on the site. However given how many elements
> >of Christianity are borrowed from Pagen beliefs (who borrowed them from
> >older religions, and so on), it's a matter of what you're looking for.
> >Jette saw the pagen stuff.
>
> The issue of who borrowed from whom is not so clear as you imply. I'm
> inclined to believe it is the pagans that borrowed from Christianity not the
> other way around.

Easy theory to test: find out when Christianity reached an area, and
see if the customs and symbols were around before then. 'Pagen' I think
is just a catch all name for European pre-Christian religions. I'm sure
modern 'pagens' borrowed from some current religions.

--
Chris Mack "Refugee, total shit. That's how I've always seen us.
'Invid Fan' Not a help, you'll admit, to agreement between us."
-'Deal/No Deal', CHESS
Re: Lion Witch Wardrobe movie to premiere Dec. 7 [message #140141 ] Di, 27 September 2005 06:18
Derek Janssen  
Invid Fan wrote:
> In article <ra2hj1pbuns65151u694vpu3c4u8rvan5l [at] 4ax.com>, George Peatty
> <pttyg47-1230 [at] copper.net> wrote:
>
>
>>On Mon, 26 Sep 2005 18:57:45 -0400, Invid Fan <invid [at] localnet.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Yes, that's what's written on the site. However given how many elements
>>>of Christianity are borrowed from Pagen beliefs (who borrowed them from
>>>older religions, and so on), it's a matter of what you're looking for.
>>>Jette saw the pagen stuff.
>>
>>The issue of who borrowed from whom is not so clear as you imply. I'm
>>inclined to believe it is the pagans that borrowed from Christianity not the
>>other way around.
>
>
> Easy theory to test: find out when Christianity reached an area, and
> see if the customs and symbols were around before then. 'Pagen' I think
> is just a catch all name for European pre-Christian religions. I'm sure
> modern 'pagens' borrowed from some current religions.

Better yet, don't, and just assume Disney's copying Peter Jackson.

Derek Janssen (friends don't let friends respond to George Peatty posts)
djanss [at] charter.net
Re: Lion Witch Wardrobe movie to premiere Dec. 7 [message #140143 ] Di, 27 September 2005 03:16
Cheeze  
The PhAnToM wrote:
> If the same person is not looking for said theme, then he or she
> won't find it.

But you will only find Narnia if you're not looking for it. :-)
Re: Lion Witch Wardrobe movie to premiere Dec. 7 [message #140149 ] Di, 27 September 2005 11:58
Ken from Chicago  
"Derek Janssen" <djanss [at] nospam.charter.net> wrote in message
news:YZ0_e.547$wg7.456 [at] fe06.lga...
> Invid Fan wrote:
>> In article <ra2hj1pbuns65151u694vpu3c4u8rvan5l [at] 4ax.com>, George Peatty
>> <pttyg47-1230 [at] copper.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>On Mon, 26 Sep 2005 18:57:45 -0400, Invid Fan <invid [at] localnet.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Yes, that's what's written on the site. However given how many elements
>>>>of Christianity are borrowed from Pagen beliefs (who borrowed them from
>>>>older religions, and so on), it's a matter of what you're looking for.
>>>>Jette saw the pagen stuff.
>>>
>>>The issue of who borrowed from whom is not so clear as you imply. I'm
>>>inclined to believe it is the pagans that borrowed from Christianity not
>>>the
>>>other way around.
>>
>>
>> Easy theory to test: find out when Christianity reached an area, and
>> see if the customs and symbols were around before then. 'Pagen' I think
>> is just a catch all name for European pre-Christian religions. I'm sure
>> modern 'pagens' borrowed from some current religions.
>
> Better yet, don't, and just assume Disney's copying Peter Jackson.
>
> Derek Janssen (friends don't let friends respond to George Peatty posts)
> djanss [at] charter.net

Shirley Disney wouldn't rip-off someone else?!

-- Ken from Chicago
Re: Lion Witch Wardrobe movie to premiere Dec. 7 [message #140159 ] Di, 27 September 2005 16:28
gbell  
"Sionnach" <rhyfelwr [at] msn.com> writes:


>"Derek Janssen" wrote:

>> > Given the chunk of New Zealand's economy that disappeared when they
>> > stopped making LOTR movies, I'm not surprised that they looked for
>> > something similar.
>>
>> ...Um, we're blaming a *country* for cloning a WETA hit down to the >last
>armor breastplate, and not Disney?

> Er - have you seen "The Lion <etc>", to support your statement that it's a
>"clone of LOTR"?
> The books are wildly dissimilar, not least because the Lewis book
>essentially involves travel to an alternate universe by schoolchildren from
>the "real world".

And the happy ending has everyone die and go to heaven as that's all
human's should aspire to; except some wee bitch who gets done in because
she wants lipstick and stockings, serves her right the wee hussy trying
to lead fine upstanding men astray.

Graham
Re: Lion Witch Wardrobe movie to premiere Dec. 7 [message #140162 ] Di, 27 September 2005 19:01
Jette Goldie  
On Tue, 27 Sep 2005 00:52:31 +0100, George Peatty
<pttyg47-1230 [at] copper.net> wrote:

> On Mon, 26 Sep 2005 18:57:45 -0400, Invid Fan <invid [at] localnet.com> wrote:
>
>> Yes, that's what's written on the site. However given how many elements
>> of Christianity are borrowed from Pagen beliefs (who borrowed them from
>> older religions, and so on), it's a matter of what you're looking for.
>> Jette saw the pagen stuff.
>
> The issue of who borrowed from whom is not so clear as you imply. I'm
> inclined to believe it is the pagans that borrowed from Christianity not
> the
> other way around.

Huh?

So you're inclined to think Mithraism (among other religions) ante-dates
Christianity?

--
Jette Goldie
jette.goldie [at] gmail.com
http://www.jette.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/
http://www.livejournal.com/users/wolfette/
Re: Lion Witch Wardrobe movie to premiere Dec. 7 [message #140173 ] Di, 27 September 2005 23:01
Christopher Kreuzer  
Cheeze <csmarasigan [at] gmail.com> wrote:
> The PhAnToM wrote:
>> If the same person is not looking for said theme, then he or she
>> won't find it.
>
> But you will only find Narnia if you're not looking for it. :-)

Have you stumbled on Lewis's analogy with Christianity?
You are most likely to find God when you are not looking for him?
Re: Lion Witch Wardrobe movie to premiere Dec. 7 [message #140174 ] Di, 27 September 2005 23:06
Christopher Kreuzer  
Jette Goldie <jette [at] blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
> On Tue, 27 Sep 2005 00:52:31 +0100, George Peatty
> <pttyg47-1230 [at] copper.net> wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 26 Sep 2005 18:57:45 -0400, Invid Fan <invid [at] localnet.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Yes, that's what's written on the site. However given how many
>>> elements of Christianity are borrowed from Pagan beliefs (who
>>> borrowed them from older religions, and so on), it's a matter of
>>> what you're looking for. Jette saw the pagan stuff.
>>
>> The issue of who borrowed from whom is not so clear as you imply.
>> I'm inclined to believe it is the pagans that borrowed from
>> Christianity not the other way around.
>
> Huh?
>
> So you're inclined to think Mithraism (among other religions)
> ante-dates Christianity?

I think he might be saying that it is not whichever religion came first,
but rather when religion X started using custom A. Religion X could
borrow custom A from religion Y, and custom B from religion Z. Religion
Y could then borrow custom B from religion X.

You have to date the use of the custom, not date the religion.

Having said that, I've also heard it said many times that lots of
Christian stuff came from pagan traditions. Instead of getting people to
change their customs, just incorporate it into the religion you convert
them to.
Re: Lion Witch Wardrobe movie to premiere Dec. 7 [message #140175 ] Di, 27 September 2005 23:14
Jette Goldie  
On Tue, 27 Sep 2005 22:06:43 +0100, Christopher Kreuzer
<spamgard [at] blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

> Jette Goldie <jette [at] blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>> On Tue, 27 Sep 2005 00:52:31 +0100, George Peatty
>> <pttyg47-1230 [at] copper.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On Mon, 26 Sep 2005 18:57:45 -0400, Invid Fan <invid [at] localnet.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Yes, that's what's written on the site. However given how many
>>>> elements of Christianity are borrowed from Pagan beliefs (who
>>>> borrowed them from older religions, and so on), it's a matter of
>>>> what you're looking for. Jette saw the pagan stuff.
>>>
>>> The issue of who borrowed from whom is not so clear as you imply.
>>> I'm inclined to believe it is the pagans that borrowed from
>>> Christianity not the other way around.
>>
>> Huh?
>>
>> So you're inclined to think Mithraism (among other religions)
>> ante-dates Christianity?
>
> I think he might be saying that it is not whichever religion came first,
> but rather when religion X started using custom A. Religion X could
> borrow custom A from religion Y, and custom B from religion Z. Religion
> Y could then borrow custom B from religion X.
>
> You have to date the use of the custom, not date the religion.
>
> Having said that, I've also heard it said many times that lots of
> Christian stuff came from pagan traditions. Instead of getting people to
> change their customs, just incorporate it into the religion you convert
> them to.
>

"Christmas" is a case in point.

Holly, Ivy, large quantities of food and drink and gifts all round.

We know how the Romans celebrated Saturnalia in pre-Christian times.

"Christmas" trees - show me where those show up in the New Testament.

--
Jette Goldie
jette.goldie [at] gmail.com
http://www.jette.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/
http://www.livejournal.com/users/wolfette/
Re: Lion Witch Wardrobe movie to premiere Dec. 7 [message #140182 ] Mi, 28 September 2005 00:56
George Peatty  
On Tue, 27 Sep 2005 04:58:10 -0500, "Ken from Chicago"
<kwicker1b_nospam [at] comcast.net> wrote:

>Shirley Disney wouldn't rip-off someone else?!

Don't call him Shirley .. even if the name does fit .. <g>
Re: Lion Witch Wardrobe movie to premiere Dec. 7 [message #140183 ] Mi, 28 September 2005 01:48
Ken from Chicago  
"Jette Goldie" <jette [at] blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:op.sxr5g2j0ab9yeg [at] 82-41-75-111.cable.ubr10.edin.blueyonder.co.uk...
> On Tue, 27 Sep 2005 22:06:43 +0100, Christopher Kreuzer
> <spamgard [at] blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> Jette Goldie <jette [at] blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On Tue, 27 Sep 2005 00:52:31 +0100, George Peatty
>>> <pttyg47-1230 [at] copper.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Mon, 26 Sep 2005 18:57:45 -0400, Invid Fan <invid [at] localnet.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Yes, that's what's written on the site. However given how many
>>>>> elements of Christianity are borrowed from Pagan beliefs (who
>>>>> borrowed them from older religions, and so on), it's a matter of
>>>>> what you're looking for. Jette saw the pagan stuff.
>>>>
>>>> The issue of who borrowed from whom is not so clear as you imply.
>>>> I'm inclined to believe it is the pagans that borrowed from
>>>> Christianity not the other way around.
>>>
>>> Huh?
>>>
>>> So you're inclined to think Mithraism (among other religions)
>>> ante-dates Christianity?
>>
>> I think he might be saying that it is not whichever religion came first,
>> but rather when religion X started using custom A. Religion X could
>> borrow custom A from religion Y, and custom B from religion Z. Religion
>> Y could then borrow custom B from religion X.
>>
>> You have to date the use of the custom, not date the religion.
>>
>> Having said that, I've also heard it said many times that lots of
>> Christian stuff came from pagan traditions. Instead of getting people to
>> change their customs, just incorporate it into the religion you convert
>> them to.
>>
>
> "Christmas" is a case in point.
>
> Holly, Ivy, large quantities of food and drink and gifts all round.
>
> We know how the Romans celebrated Saturnalia in pre-Christian times.
>
> "Christmas" trees - show me where those show up in the New Testament.

Norse myths about the great Tree that link Midgard with Asgard and the, um,
Undergard(?)

> --
> Jette Goldie
> jette.goldie [at] gmail.com
> http://www.jette.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/
> http://www.livejournal.com/users/wolfette/

-- Ken from Chicago
Re: Lion Witch Wardrobe movie to premiere Dec. 7 [message #140202 ] Mi, 28 September 2005 09:13
philippa  
>
> Norse myths about the great Tree that link Midgard with Asgard and the, um,
> Undergard(?)


Not in the Bible <G>. There are other earlier-than-Christianity
possibilities for the use of the evergreen tree in the depths of
Winter at approximately solstice time. Devotees of figures like
Herne the hunter and the Green Man (where a distinction is made
between those two guys) for instance. Some kind of male god/tree
type representative who willingly (usually) dies every Winter so
that he can be reborn in Spring.

Holly = male and ivy = female. Earlier words for the popular
carol make that quite clear, with the female ivy twining around
the male holly.

Mistletoe usage comes from Norse mythology.


Philippa
Re: Lion Witch Wardrobe movie to premiere Dec. 7 [message #140203 ] Mi, 28 September 2005 11:31
Cheeze  
Christopher Kreuzer wrote:
> Cheeze <csmarasigan [at] gmail.com> wrote:
> > The PhAnToM wrote:
> >> If the same person is not looking for said theme, then he or she
> >> won't find it.
> >
> > But you will only find Narnia if you're not looking for it. :-)
>
> Have you stumbled on Lewis's analogy with Christianity?
> You are most likely to find God when you are not looking for him?

Stumbled? Its hard to miss. But if you're asking if I've read up on
it, or actually heard his explanations for some of the less obvious
allegories, no I haven't.

The "not finding narnia if you are looking for it" part, I thought
meant that if kids didn't actually know that they're reading about
Christianity, it would be easier for them to accept the messages behind
it.

My first encounter with LWW was from an animated version. Loved it.
Never got the Christian parts. But by the time I was in College, it
became pretty obvious.
Re: Lion Witch Wardrobe movie to premiere Dec. 7 [message #141214 ] Mi, 28 September 2005 21:36
Christopher Kreuzer  
Cheeze <csmarasigan [at] gmail.com> wrote:
> Christopher Kreuzer wrote:
>> Cheeze <csmarasigan [at] gmail.com> wrote:
>>> The PhAnToM wrote:
>>>> If the same person is not looking for said theme, then he or she
>>>> won't find it.
>>>
>>> But you will only find Narnia if you're not looking for it. :-)
>>
>> Have you stumbled on Lewis's analogy with Christianity?
>> You are most likely to find God when you are not looking for him?
>
> Stumbled? Its hard to miss.

I meant the specific "not looking for it" analogy. I'd never spotted
that until you threw the phrase into this thread, and then it hit me
like the proverbial bolt of lightning. Didn't find God though.

> But if you're asking if I've read up on
> it, or actually heard his explanations for some of the less obvious
> allegories, no I haven't.

He explains all/some of his Narnia allegories?

> The "not finding narnia if you are looking for it" part, I thought
> meant that if kids didn't actually know that they're reading about
> Christianity, it would be easier for them to accept the messages
> behind it.

That would also work.

Christopher

--
---
Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard
Re: Lion Witch Wardrobe movie to premiere Dec. 7 [message #141220 ] Mi, 28 September 2005 22:51
donnellaf  
George Peatty wrote:

> In today's world where Christian witness is labeled as *imposing* one's
> beliefs, no studio in its right financial mind would risk the backlash of a
> boycott by including those elements. Better in their mind to piss off the
> Christians than the secularists. At least by defenestrating the story of
> its Christian elements, they can maintain the charade of objectivity or
> neutrality.

Consider the financial success of Mel Gibson's Passion of the Christ,
which managed to remain quite faithful to its explicitly Christian
subject matter. In Narnia, the Christian subject matter is there and is
integral to the story, but it isn't as explicit. Why should the movie
studio mind, especially when they are producing the movie for a country
where the majority of people identify themselves as Christian?

But then, when has Disney remained faithful to any of its inspirations?

And I would tend to think that a shared characteristic of great movies
(and literature) is that they do impose the director's/writer's beliefs
onto the movie, not necessarily religious beliefs, but some deeply held
convictions that inform the emotions, plots, and feelings of the movie.
These movies stand out and actually mean something. A lot of
forgettable and derivative crud has been produced by objectivity and
neutrality, when a committee craft a movie that will appeal to everybody
and not challenge any assumptions or step on any toes.


Andy
Re: Lion Witch Wardrobe movie to premiere Dec. 7 [message #141221 ] Mi, 28 September 2005 23:03
donnellaf  
Invid Fan wrote:

> Then again, I read the books as a young teen and didn't see any
> Christian elements. I admit I didn't look, and didn't discover Lewis's
> other writings until I became non-Christian. So, it's going to depend
> on what's removed and if it was important to the story.

I don't see how they can reasonably remove the Christian elements, since
they *are* the story. The whole general plot and the characterizations
are part of the allegory. Of course, they could change all the plot and
characterization, like the SciFi channel did in their miniseries based
on Le Guin's Earthsea--and you'd think the SciFi Channel would be a
little more sympathetic towards their source material than Disney would
be toward their's.

Andy
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