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Fantasy » alt.fan.tolkien » Songs and verses in The Silmarillion
| Songs and verses in The Silmarillion [message #134947] |
Mo, 19 September 2005 03:46 |
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This post is following up one in an ongoing thread about the Songs and
Verses in 'The Lord of the Rings'.
I got to wondering about the songs and verses in 'The Silmarillion', and
I realised I could only find two. This seems strange when you first
realise that Tolkien wrote lengthy verse versions of many of his tales,
notable for the Beren-Luthien tale and the tale of Turin Turambar (see
the Lays of Beleriand book in the HoME series).
This might be just because Tolkien seemed to keep a clear distinction
between his prose versions of his mythologies and his verse versions of
stories from his mythologies, not really mixing the two.
But we do see the two get mixed ever so slightly in the 1977
Silmarillion (the published version edited by his son, Christopher
Tolkien). The two verses appear in the chapter 'Of Beren and Luthien'.
The first one is "He chanted a song of wizardry...", describing Finrod's
battle with Sauron, and is said to be a direct quote from 'The Lay of
Leithian. The second one is "Farewell sweet earth and northern sky...",
as sung by Beren about Luthien.
Firstly, was the form of this chapter as J.R.R. Tolkien wrote it, or has
it been heavily edited by Christopher Tolkien for the 1977 publication?
Can anyone who knows the relevant HoME volumes shed light on the
editorial history of this chapter? ie. Did J.R.R. Tolkien chose to put
these verses in, or did Christopher Tolkien add them in?
If J.R.R. Tolkien chose to add these verses to a prose telling of the
story (as someone has suggested to me), why did he do this here and not
anywhere else in 'The Silmarillion' (as far as I can tell)? Is it maybe
because some bits of 'The Silmarillion', despite being prose, are very
poetic? What I have seen described as 'poetic prose'?
The inclusion of Beren's song to Luthien is understandable, as it
strikes so deeply to the heart of Tolkien's story. The inclusion of a
fragment from 'The Lay of Leithian' is interesting, because certain
phrases seem to be, as would be expected from such an early work,
inconsistent with the published version of the Silmarillion, and more
consistent with the BoLT (Book of Lost Tales) versions.
In particular, I am thinking of these bits of that verse:
"And all the magic and might he brought
Of Elvenesse into his words."
The word 'Elvenesse' (compare with Westernesse - Numenor) is not, as far
as I know, used elsewhere in the 1977 Silmarillion, and seems to remind
me of phrases used in BoLT.
"Beyond the western world, on sand,
On sand of pearls on Elvenland."
Ditto for the word 'Elvenland'. The more standard word seems to be
'Eldamar' or 'Elvenhome'. Elvenland seems to be a relic from an earlier
stage of Tolkien's mythos. Which is why I started to wonder if
Christopher Tolkien or JRRT had produced this chapter.
"Beside the Sea, where the Noldor slew
The Foamriders, and stealing drew"
'Foamriders' is definitely an earlier way to describe the Teleri.
"The wolf howls. The ravens flee."
And this phrase seems to jump out as well. What are these wolves and
ravens? They seem a bit out of place. Are these relics from earlier
writings as well? Another example of this is here:
"Softly in the gloom they heard the birds
Singing afar in Nargothrond"
Was Nargothrond ever notable (in the 1977 Silmarillion) for birds?
In contrast, some phrases are consistent with what we read elsewhere in
the 1977 Silmarillion or LotR:
"The sighing of the Sea beyond,
Beyond the western world, on sand,
On sand of pearls on Elvenland."
This recalls the bit here:
"until he heard on strands of pearl
when ends the world the music long,
where ever foaming billows roll
the yellow gold and jewels wan."
(Bilbo's song of Earendil, LotR)
And this bit and the bit that follows it:
"In Valinor, the red blood flowing
Beside the Sea..."
....obviously describes the Kinslaying.
And this bit:
"The ice mutters in the mouths of the Sea.
The captives sad in Angband mourn."
....desscribes the crossing of the Helcaraxe and the captivity of Elves
in Angband, though even that last one (captivity in Angband) I think
played a greater role in the BoLT tales than in the 1977 Silmarillion.
So was Tolkien constrained by the poetic form and unable to make
changes? Or did he deliberately leave things in the older form, for
whatever reason?
Christopher
--
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Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard
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| Re: Songs and verses in The Silmarillion [message #136516 ] |
Mo, 19 September 2005 22:38 |
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Christopher Kreuzer <spamgard [at] blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>But we do see the two get mixed ever so slightly in the 1977
>Silmarillion (the published version edited by his son, Christopher
>Tolkien). The two verses appear in the chapter 'Of Beren and Luthien'.
>The first one is "He chanted a song of wizardry...", describing Finrod's
>battle with Sauron, and is said to be a direct quote from 'The Lay of
>Leithian. The second one is "Farewell sweet earth and northern sky...",
>as sung by Beren about Luthien.
>
>Firstly, was the form of this chapter as J.R.R. Tolkien wrote it, or has
>it been heavily edited by Christopher Tolkien for the 1977 publication?
>Can anyone who knows the relevant HoME volumes shed light on the
>editorial history of this chapter? ie. Did J.R.R. Tolkien chose to put
>these verses in, or did Christopher Tolkien add them in?
The construction of this chapter is described in detail in HoME 5. It
wasn't heavily edited; it's basically the form written for the
Silmarillion, with the odd sentence added from the Grey Annals.
I haven't checked, but I think the later piece of verse was in
Tolkien's chapter, and Christopher and Guy Kay decided to add the
earlier (and longer) one. Both pieces come from the Lay of Leithian.
-M-
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| Re: Songs and verses in The Silmarillion [message #136520 ] |
Di, 20 September 2005 00:39 |
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Matthew Woodcraft <mattheww [at] chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
> Christopher Kreuzer <spamgard [at] blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>> But we do see the two get mixed ever so slightly in the 1977
>> Silmarillion (the published version edited by his son, Christopher
>> Tolkien). The two verses appear in the chapter 'Of Beren and
>> Luthien'. The first one is "He chanted a song of wizardry...",
>> describing Finrod's battle with Sauron, and is said to be a direct
>> quote from 'The Lay of Leithian. The second one is "Farewell sweet
>> earth and northern sky...", as sung by Beren about Luthien.
>>
>> Firstly, was the form of this chapter as J.R.R. Tolkien wrote it, or
>> has it been heavily edited by Christopher Tolkien for the 1977
>> publication? Can anyone who knows the relevant HoME volumes shed
>> light on the editorial history of this chapter? ie. Did J.R.R.
>> Tolkien chose to put these verses in, or did Christopher Tolkien add
>> them in?
>
> The construction of this chapter is described in detail in HoME 5.
So it is. :-) Thanks for the reference.
> It wasn't heavily edited; it's basically the form written for the
> Silmarillion, with the odd sentence added from the Grey Annals.
I found this quote from Christopher Tolkien:
"I restrict myself here therefore to remarking particular features and
to indicating the genesis of chapter 19 in /The Silmarillion/..."
It is interesting that he makes fairly frequent reference to bits of
text that he omitted in editing, bits of text that he now realises
should have been in the published version of /The Silmarillion/.
> I haven't checked, but I think the later piece of verse was in
> Tolkien's chapter, and Christopher and Guy Kay decided to add the
> earlier (and longer) one. Both pieces come from the Lay of Leithian.
I found a reference where Christopher Tolkien says:
"Citation from the /Lay of Leithian/ (p.171). QS (where the narrative is
now only that of the 'shorter' version, QS II) has: 'Sauron had the
mastery, and he stripped from them their disguise.' The introduction of
a passage from the Lay was justified, or so I thought, by the passage
cited later in QS (p.178)."
(HoME V - The Lost Road and Other Writings, 2002 PB edition published by
HarperCollins, pp. 300: Quenta Silmarillion - chapters 12-15 'Of Beren
and Tinuviel')
Though I can't find my first edition of /The Silmarillion/ to check the
page references, it is clear that Christopher Tolkien is referring to
the "He chanted a song of wizardry..." verse fragment when he says
"Citation from the /Lay of Leithian/ (p.171)", as the published
Silmarillion has "Sauron had the mastery, as is told in the Lay of
Leithian: [verse fragment]. Then Sauron stripped from them their
disguise..." (Of Beren and Luthien, 1977 Silmarillion).
It also seems clear that Christopher Tolkien is referring to the other
verse fragment ("Farewell sweet earth and northern sky...") when he
says: "The introduction of a passage from the Lay was justified, or so I
thought, by the passage cited later in QS (p.178)." This "passage cited
later" on page 178 appears to be the "Farewell sweet earth and northern
sky..." bit (the 'Song of Parting'), as this is about the right number
of pages further on, and is the only thing that could possibly be "cited
later" that might justify the inclusion of another fragment from the
Lay.
I think you are right, in that Christopher Tolkien seems to be saying
that JRRT placed the 'Song of Parting' in the text, and that Christopher
Tolkien then followed this lead and placed another fragment of the Lay
into the text of this chapter.
What is annoying, is that I can't find anything where Christopher
Tolkien expands on this and explains his cryptic comment:
"justified, or so I thought".
Am I missing something? Does Christopher Tolkien explain anywhere why
his choice may not have been justified? Or is he just saying in a
verbose way that this is "what he thought" and this is why he added the
extra fragment from the Lay? And am I just reading into his comment an
uncertainty which is not there?
Christopher
--
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Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard
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| Re: Songs and verses in The Silmarillion [message #136545 ] |
Di, 20 September 2005 14:23 |
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On Mon, 19 Sep 2005 22:39:43 GMT, "Christopher Kreuzer"
<spamgard [at] blueyonder.co.uk> posted the following:
>"justified, or so I thought".
>
>Am I missing something? Does Christopher Tolkien explain anywhere why
>his choice may not have been justified? Or is he just saying in a
>verbose way that this is "what he thought" and this is why he added the
>extra fragment from the Lay? And am I just reading into his comment an
>uncertainty which is not there?
After his work on the HoME, CT seems to have viewed his more
heavy-handed editing with regret, so this may just be another aspect
of that.
-Chris
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| Re: Songs and verses in The Silmarillion [message #136552 ] |
Di, 20 September 2005 17:25 |
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Quoth "Christopher Kreuzer" <spamgard [at] blueyonder.co.uk> in article
<P6HXe.111724$G8.1514 [at] text.news.blueyonder.co.uk>:
> I found this quote from Christopher Tolkien:
....
> It is interesting that he makes fairly frequent reference to bits of
> text that he omitted in editing, bits of text that he now realises
> should have been in the published version of /The Silmarillion/.
That's always felt like one of the major themes of the later volumes
of HoMe to me: "The published Silmarillion isn't perfect, not even as
good as it had the potential to be under the circumstances." That
message has a profound effect on how I treat /The Silmarillion/ in
terms of "canonicity".
But I think it also shows Christopher Tolkien being rather unfair to
himself: he (and Guy Kay) did a fantastic job of assembling /The
Silmarillion/, and did it quite quickly. I don't think that Tolkien's
fans would have wanted to wait an extra decade or two for a marginally
better version! And the success of /The Silmarillion/ paved the way
for the publication of UT and HoMe, which are more than we could ever
have hoped for. (Mind you, it would be pretty cool to see what sort
of /Silmarillion/ Christopher Tolkien would construct today! But I
fully recognize that he probably has no interest in that whatsoever,
and I can't blame him. And perhaps today he would err in the other
direction and be _too_ careful about what to say or what to include.)
[Regarding the verse bits in the tale of Beren and Luthien in Silm.:]
> Matthew Woodcraft <mattheww [at] chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
> > I haven't checked, but I think the later piece of verse was in
> > Tolkien's chapter, and Christopher and Guy Kay decided to add the
> > earlier (and longer) one.
> I found a reference where Christopher Tolkien says:
> "Citation from the /Lay of Leithian/ (p.171). QS (where the
> narrative is now only that of the 'shorter' version, QS II) has:
> 'Sauron had the mastery, and he stripped from them their disguise.'
> The introduction of a passage from the Lay was justified, or so I
> thought, by the passage cited later in QS (p.178)."
That nicely explains my own (very imprecise) impression of the text.
I actually don't have any clear memory of the second verse bit at all,
which would be consistent with it being a more "natural" part of
Tolkien's text. The "He chanted a song of wizardry" verse, however,
has always been a vivid memory of mine from /The Silmarillion/. I was
very excited when I finally got a copy of /Lays/ and was able to read
it in context. (Not that the _entire_ poem was as strong as that
excerpt, of course; I could see why Christopher chose to include it in
Silm.)
> What is annoying, is that I can't find anything where Christopher
> Tolkien expands on this and explains his cryptic comment:
>
> "justified, or so I thought".
>
> Am I missing something? Does Christopher Tolkien explain anywhere why
> his choice may not have been justified?
I think this gets back to that general HoMe theme that I mentioned
earlier: Christopher seems to have increasingly come to the conclusion
that the fewer changes made to his father's drafts, the better. So
I'd guess that this quote is probably just a bit of "editor's
remorse".
Steuard Jensen
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| Re: Songs and verses in The Silmarillion [message #136559 ] |
Di, 20 September 2005 20:32 |
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On Tue, 20 Sep 2005 15:25:28 GMT in rec.arts.books.tolkien, Steuard
Jensen favored us with...
> That's always felt like one of the major themes of the later volumes
> of HoMe to me: "The published Silmarillion isn't perfect, not even as
> good as it had the potential to be under the circumstances." That
> message has a profound effect on how I treat /The Silmarillion/ in
> terms of "canonicity".
>
> But I think it also shows Christopher Tolkien being rather unfair to
> himself: he (and Guy Kay) did a fantastic job of assembling /The
> Silmarillion/, and did it quite quickly.
<aol>Me too!</aol>
Seriously, I think we Americans need to take CRT's self-
depreciating comments with a large pinch of salt. It's very British
to underestimate the value of one's own work, and since Americans
generally don't do that we tend to asume that when someone says
"This is a poor job" they mean just that.
In effect, I think CRT is saying that in the light of hindsight,
especially as he sifted through a few hundred more boxes of his
father's disordered papers, he might have made a few decisions
differently. That's not at all the same as saying that he
blundered.
> I don't think that Tolkien's
> fans would have wanted to wait an extra decade or two for a marginally
> better version!
Exactly. (I think if it had meant going through every paper before
publishing anything, that the /Silmarillion/ would never have been
published.)
--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site)
Tolkien letters FAQ:
http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html
FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm
Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm
more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm
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