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Fantasy » alt.fan.tolkien » Writings and Languages in Middle-earth
Writings and Languages in Middle-earth [message #132233] Mi, 14 September 2005 21:49
Christopher Kreuzer  
While taking part in the discussion of Appendix F, I got side-tracked
into listing examples where we read about writings and runes in LotR. It
started with bilingual memorials, and then expanded to cover quite a few
other examples of writing.

What I was wondering, was whether anyone can confirm or speculate what
the languages involved are, and maybe think of further examples.

1) "These are Daeron's Runes, such as were used of old in Moria. Here is
written in the tongues of Men and Dwarves..." (A Journey in the Dark)

This is the bilingual memorial for Balin.

2) "...for Snowmane they dug a grave and set up a stone upon which was
carved in the tongues of Gondor and the Mark..." (The Battle of the
Pelennor Fields)

This is a bilingual memorial for Snowmane.

Some other bits of writing (though not bilingual) that I've managed to
gather together:

1) "...a great horn of the wild ox of the East, bound with silver, and
written with ancient characters..." (The Window on the West)

This is Faramir talking about Boromir's horn. I wonder what language
those characters are in? An ancient language of Men?

2) "...Between them was a narrow space, and there upon a floor of
polished stone, written with strange signs, a man might stand five
hundred feet above the plain." (The Road to Isengard)

This writing is on the topmost level of Orthanc. Again, can we speculate
as to what language this is? Numenoreans built Orthanc, so presumably it
is Elvish.

3) "At the top, as high as Gandalf could reach, was an arch of
interlacing letters in an Elvish character." (A Journey in the Dark)

This is the writing on the Doors of Durin. Elvish characters.

4) "The Sword of Elendil was forged anew by Elvish smiths, and on its
blade was traced a device of seven stars set between the crescent Moon
and the rayed Sun, and about them was written many runes..." (The Ring
Goes South)

Is it safe to assume, given that these are Elvish smiths, that the runes
are in an Elvish language?

5) "There are evil things written on this hilt, though maybe your eyes
cannot see them." (Flight to the Ford)

This is Glorfindel talking to Aragorn about the hilt of the Morgul blade
that was used to wound Frodo. What language would this be? Black Speech?

6) "Rangers use runes, and they come here sometimes." (A Knife in the
Dark)

Would Rangers use Sindarin?

7) "On it roughly cut and now much weathered could still be seen
dwarf-runes and secret marks." (Flight to the Ford)

Dwarvish.

8) "...his [Earendil's] shining shield was scored with runes..." (Many
Meetings)

Elvish?

9) "Beside the standing stone Gimli halted and looked up. It was cracked
and weather-worn, and the faint runes upon its side could not be read."
(Lothlorien)

An early form of dwarvish?

10) "...and on it were set in elven runes formed of many gems the name
Anduril and the lineage of the sword." (Farewell to Lorien)

Elvish.

11) "...the floor was paved with stones of many hues; branching runes
and strange devices intertwined beneath their feet." (The King of the
Golden Hall)

Rohirric runes?

12) "...trees hewn down wantonly and left to die, with evil runes or the
fell sign of the Eye cut in rude strokes on their bark." (Of Herbs and
Stewed Rabbit)

Black Speech?

13) "Upon its knees and mighty chair, and all about the pedestal, were
idle scrawls mixed with the foul symbols that the maggot-folk of Mordor
used." (Journey to the Cross-roads)

Black Speech?

14) "Then Eowyn gave to Merry an ancient horn [...] and there were set
runes of great virtue." (Many Partings)

The ancestor language of the Rohirrim?

15) Also the G-rune is used by both Gandalf and Galadriel (Gandalf when
signing letters and leaving signs at Weathertop and on his fireworks,
and Galadriel on the lid of the box she gave to Sam). Saruman also used
runes this way, using the S-rune on the helmets of his soldiers.

Can anyone think of any other examples?
Anything from /The Hobbit/ or /The Silmarillion/?

Christopher

--
---
Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard
Re: Writings and Languages in Middle-earth [message #132248 ] Mi, 14 September 2005 23:37
Count Menelvagor  
Christopher Kreuzer wrote:
> While taking part in the discussion of Appendix F, I got side-tracked
> into listing examples where we read about writings and runes in LotR. It
> started with bilingual memorials, and then expanded to cover quite a few
> other examples of writing.

> 6) "Rangers use runes, and they come here sometimes." (A Knife in the
> Dark)
>
> Would Rangers use Sindarin?

they could. gilraen speaks sindarin to aragorn (tale of a. and a.),
and iirc the rangers were the only ones to use sindarin names of
months. but i guess it's impossible tell here whether the runes are in
sindarin or common speech.

> 8) "...his [Earendil's] shining shield was scored with runes..." (Many
> Meetings)
>
> Elvish?

i'd say almost certainly. seems a little odd that he didn't use
tengwar going to the blessed realm.

> Anything from /The Hobbit/ or /The Silmarillion/?

there are runes on the map in hobbit. iirc they are actual anglo-saxon
runes?
Re: Writings and Languages in Middle-earth [message #132255 ] Do, 15 September 2005 06:01
the softrat  
On 14 Sep 2005 14:37:40 -0700, "Count Menelvagor"
<Menelvagor [at] mailandnews.com> wrote:
>
>there are runes on the map in hobbit. iirc they are actual anglo-saxon
>runes?

Well, actually slightly altered A-S runes.

One might even say, 'adapted'.

the softrat
Unless Barad-dur is rebuilt, twice as evil as before, Frodo has triumphed!
mailto:softrat [at] pobox.com
--
"Never try to impress a woman because if you do, you'll have to
keep up that standard the rest of your life" -- W. C. Fields
Re: Writings and Languages in Middle-earth [message #132262 ] Do, 15 September 2005 11:06
Tux Wonder-Dog  
Count Menelvagor wrote:

>
> Christopher Kreuzer wrote:
>> While taking part in the discussion of Appendix F, I got side-tracked
>> into listing examples where we read about writings and runes in LotR. It
>> started with bilingual memorials, and then expanded to cover quite a few
>> other examples of writing.
>
>> 6) "Rangers use runes, and they come here sometimes." (A Knife in the
>> Dark)
>>
>> Would Rangers use Sindarin?
>
> they could. gilraen speaks sindarin to aragorn (tale of a. and a.),
> and iirc the rangers were the only ones to use sindarin names of
> months. but i guess it's impossible tell here whether the runes are in
> sindarin or common speech.
>
>> 8) "...his [Earendil's] shining shield was scored with runes..." (Many
>> Meetings)
>>
>> Elvish?
>
> i'd say almost certainly. seems a little odd that he didn't use
> tengwar going to the blessed realm.

But on the other hand, he was going as representative of a mixed group of
Eldar living then under the protection of Cirdan - or that is how I read
it. (They were refugees, after all.) I imagine Cirdan adhered to
Thingol's dictum that Noldorin be not spoken in his realm, being related
to the Teleri himself. And I expect tengwar was consequently downgraded in
relation to Daeron's runes - at least in the Sindarin realms.

Wesley Parish

--
"Good, late in to more rewarding well."  "Well, you tonight.  And I was
lookintelligent woman of Ming home.  I trust you with a tender silence."  I
get a word into my hands, a different and unbelike, probably - 'she
fortunate fat woman', wrong word.  I think to me, I justupid.
Let not emacs meta-X dissociate-press write your romantic dialogs...!!!
Re: Writings and Languages in Middle-earth [message #134834 ] Do, 15 September 2005 21:16
Larry Swain  
Christopher Kreuzer wrote:
> While taking part in the discussion of Appendix F, I got side-tracked
> into listing examples where we read about writings and runes in LotR. It
> started with bilingual memorials, and then expanded to cover quite a few
> other examples of writing.
>
> What I was wondering, was whether anyone can confirm or speculate what
> the languages involved are, and maybe think of further examples.
>
> 1) "These are Daeron's Runes, such as were used of old in Moria. Here is
> written in the tongues of Men and Dwarves..." (A Journey in the Dark)
>
> This is the bilingual memorial for Balin.

Probably Westron, don't you think? I can't quite imagine that they
wrote it in every language of man in Middle Earth when one language
would do. Khuzdul is the language of the dwarves.




> 2) "...for Snowmane they dug a grave and set up a stone upon which was
> carved in the tongues of Gondor and the Mark..." (The Battle of the
> Pelennor Fields)
>
> This is a bilingual memorial for Snowmane.

Westron and Rohirric.

>
> Some other bits of writing (though not bilingual) that I've managed to
> gather together:
>
> 1) "...a great horn of the wild ox of the East, bound with silver, and
> written with ancient characters..." (The Window on the West)
>
> This is Faramir talking about Boromir's horn. I wonder what language
> those characters are in? An ancient language of Men?

Here the reference is explicitly to the "alphabet" which is unrelated to
language. Likely the inscription is in Sindarin, I'd expect, because
its a ceremonial piece.

>
> 2) "...Between them was a narrow space, and there upon a floor of
> polished stone, written with strange signs, a man might stand five
> hundred feet above the plain." (The Road to Isengard)
>
> This writing is on the topmost level of Orthanc. Again, can we speculate
> as to what language this is? Numenoreans built Orthanc, so presumably it
> is Elvish.

I'd assume that too.


>
> 3) "At the top, as high as Gandalf could reach, was an arch of
> interlacing letters in an Elvish character." (A Journey in the Dark)
>
> This is the writing on the Doors of Durin. Elvish characters.

Sindarin isn't it?

>
> 4) "The Sword of Elendil was forged anew by Elvish smiths, and on its
> blade was traced a device of seven stars set between the crescent Moon
> and the rayed Sun, and about them was written many runes..." (The Ring
> Goes South)
>
> Is it safe to assume, given that these are Elvish smiths, that the runes
> are in an Elvish language?

Again, probably Sindarin


> 5) "There are evil things written on this hilt, though maybe your eyes
> cannot see them." (Flight to the Ford)
>
> This is Glorfindel talking to Aragorn about the hilt of the Morgul blade
> that was used to wound Frodo. What language would this be? Black Speech?

I would think so, yes.

>
> 6) "Rangers use runes, and they come here sometimes." (A Knife in the
> Dark)
>
> Would Rangers use Sindarin?

Maybe. LIkely Westron though, I would think.

I think you have the rest right except:

>
> 14) "Then Eowyn gave to Merry an ancient horn [...] and there were set
> runes of great virtue." (Many Partings)
>
> The ancestor language of the Rohirrim?


Why the ancestor?


> 15) Also the G-rune is used by both Gandalf and Galadriel (Gandalf when
> signing letters and leaving signs at Weathertop and on his fireworks,
> and Galadriel on the lid of the box she gave to Sam). Saruman also used
> runes this way, using the S-rune on the helmets of his soldiers.

Right, again the reference to the runic system rather than language.
Re: Writings and Languages in Middle-earth [message #134835 ] Do, 15 September 2005 21:50
tenworld  
dont you have to distinguish between Runes and language?

I also though of runes as more grapical (like Chinese pictographs)
than as equivalents to true alphabets (given that 'a' might have been
an oxhead once but now its just an 'a')

so could one use both runes and a specific alphabet to write a message
in the same language?
Re: Writings and Languages in Middle-earth [message #134841 ] Do, 15 September 2005 23:16
Christopher Kreuzer  
Larry Swain <theswain [at] operamail.com> wrote:

> I think you have the rest right except:
>
>>
>> 14) "Then Eowyn gave to Merry an ancient horn [...] and there were
>> set runes of great virtue." (Many Partings)
>>
>> The ancestor language of the Rohirrim?
>
> Why the ancestor?

I assumed the runes were set in the horn when it was made. In fact, as
it actually came from the hoard of Scatha the worm, it is possible that
the runes, and whatever the runes are saying, dates back even further,
to whoever made the horn in the mists of time.

In fact, Eomer says: "It was made by the Dwarves". But we are also told
that "wrights had engraven upon it swift horsemen riding in a line". Are
we supposed to think that the Rohirric wrights had added to this
artifact?

Personally, I would doubt that the language is Rohirric. Do we know how
far back that language goes? Would Eorl have spoken the same language as
Theoden? About 500 years separet them. That is not that long a period of
time when compared to the Dunedain and Elven cultures, but maybe enough
for a culture of 'lesser' Men. What about going even further back, to
the tribes of Rhovannion. Gondor has had a continuous culture, and a
written one at that, but a culture like the Rohirrim and their
ancesters, how much writing did they do and how much was oral tradition?

Christopher

--
---
Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard
Re: Writings and Languages in Middle-earth [message #134847 ] Do, 15 September 2005 23:52
Christopher Kreuzer  
Christopher Kreuzer <spamgard [at] blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

>>> 14) "Then Eowyn gave to Merry an ancient horn [...] and there were
>>> set runes of great virtue." (Many Partings)

<snip>

> In fact, Eomer says: "It was made by the Dwarves". But we are also
> told that "wrights had engraven upon it swift horsemen riding in a
> line". Are we supposed to think that the Rohirric wrights had added
> to this artifact?

The corollary, I forgot to add, being that Fram could have just been
picking through Scatha's hoard and thought: "Ooh! Look! Nice horsies!"
and selected that horn as a particular heirloom.
Re: Writings and Languages in Middle-earth [message #134856 ] Fr, 16 September 2005 03:38
Emma Pease  
In article <t7ydnT5f3pUGVbTeRVn-pw [at] rcn.net>, Larry Swain wrote:
> Christopher Kreuzer wrote:
>> While taking part in the discussion of Appendix F, I got side-tracked
>> into listing examples where we read about writings and runes in LotR. It
>> started with bilingual memorials, and then expanded to cover quite a few
>> other examples of writing.
>>
>> What I was wondering, was whether anyone can confirm or speculate what
>> the languages involved are, and maybe think of further examples.
>>
>> 1) "These are Daeron's Runes, such as were used of old in Moria. Here is
>> written in the tongues of Men and Dwarves..." (A Journey in the Dark)
>>
>> This is the bilingual memorial for Balin.
>
> Probably Westron, don't you think? I can't quite imagine that they
> wrote it in every language of man in Middle Earth when one language
> would do. Khuzdul is the language of the dwarves.

>
>> 2) "...for Snowmane they dug a grave and set up a stone upon which was
>> carved in the tongues of Gondor and the Mark..." (The Battle of the
>> Pelennor Fields)
>>
>> This is a bilingual memorial for Snowmane.
>
> Westron and Rohirric.
>
>>
>> Some other bits of writing (though not bilingual) that I've managed to
>> gather together:
>>
>> 1) "...a great horn of the wild ox of the East, bound with silver, and
>> written with ancient characters..." (The Window on the West)
>>
>> This is Faramir talking about Boromir's horn. I wonder what language
>> those characters are in? An ancient language of Men?
>
> Here the reference is explicitly to the "alphabet" which is unrelated to
> language. Likely the inscription is in Sindarin, I'd expect, because
> its a ceremonial piece.

The Dunedain might also have used Quenya. Though note that the
characters are said to be ancient and not the language so perhaps they
were in an old style of writing.


>> 2) "...Between them was a narrow space, and there upon a floor of
>> polished stone, written with strange signs, a man might stand five
>> hundred feet above the plain." (The Road to Isengard)
>>
>> This writing is on the topmost level of Orthanc. Again, can we speculate
>> as to what language this is? Numenoreans built Orthanc, so presumably it
>> is Elvish.
>
> I'd assume that too.

Or straight out symbols like those used nowadays for the planets and
the zodiac.

>>
>> 3) "At the top, as high as Gandalf could reach, was an arch of
>> interlacing letters in an Elvish character." (A Journey in the Dark)
>>
>> This is the writing on the Doors of Durin. Elvish characters.
>
> Sindarin isn't it?


>> 4) "The Sword of Elendil was forged anew by Elvish smiths, and on its
>> blade was traced a device of seven stars set between the crescent Moon
>> and the rayed Sun, and about them was written many runes..." (The Ring
>> Goes South)
>>
>> Is it safe to assume, given that these are Elvish smiths, that the runes
>> are in an Elvish language?
>
> Again, probably Sindarin

Agreed. The sword was called Anduril which is Sindarin and presumably
part of the runes on it spell out the name.

>> 5) "There are evil things written on this hilt, though maybe your eyes
>> cannot see them." (Flight to the Ford)
>>
>> This is Glorfindel talking to Aragorn about the hilt of the Morgul blade
>> that was used to wound Frodo. What language would this be? Black Speech?
>
> I would think so, yes.

But which character set?


>> 6) "Rangers use runes, and they come here sometimes." (A Knife in the
>> Dark)
>>
>> Would Rangers use Sindarin?
>
> Maybe. LIkely Westron though, I would think.

Except that all there was was G and three lines and no word in any
language. It is the character set here that is important and G is a G
in both Westron and transliterated Sindarin (Gandalf which the G stood
for is a Westron name).

> I think you have the rest right except:
>
>>
>> 14) "Then Eowyn gave to Merry an ancient horn [...] and there were set
>> runes of great virtue." (Many Partings)
>>
>> The ancestor language of the Rohirrim?

> Why the ancestor?

Would the Rohirrim create 'runes of great virtue' considering their
fear of magic in general.

>> 15) Also the G-rune is used by both Gandalf and Galadriel (Gandalf when
>> signing letters and leaving signs at Weathertop and on his fireworks,
>> and Galadriel on the lid of the box she gave to Sam). Saruman also used
>> runes this way, using the S-rune on the helmets of his soldiers.
>
> Right, again the reference to the runic system rather than language.

Also the book of Mazarbul(?) which is in Westron but uses both runes
and Elvish letters.


--
\----
|\* | Emma Pease Net Spinster
|_\/ Die Luft der Freiheit weht
Re: Writings and Languages in Middle-earth [message #134859 ] Fr, 16 September 2005 07:38
the softrat  
On 15 Sep 2005 12:50:34 -0700, "tenworld" <ten [at] world.std.com> wrote:

>dont you have to distinguish between Runes and language?
>
Nope. 'Runes' *is* an alphabet. There are just more than one version:
Anglo-saxon, Scandanavian-long row, Scandanavian-short row.

>I also though of runes as more grapical (like Chinese pictographs)
>than as equivalents to true alphabets (given that 'a' might have been
>an oxhead once but now its just an 'a')
>
Nope. Not true! You seem to be thinking of ancient west semitic
characters, the ancestor of them all.

>so could one use both runes and a specific alphabet to write a message
>in the same language?

Yup, if one wanted to be reredundant.
the softrat
Unless Barad-dur is rebuilt, twice as evil as before, Frodo has triumphed!
mailto:softrat [at] pobox.com
--
Borrow money from pessimists - they don't expect it back. --
Steven Wright
Re: Writings and Languages in Middle-earth [message #134864 ] Fr, 16 September 2005 08:56
Dirk Thierbach  
Larry Swain <theswain [at] operamail.com> wrote:
> Christopher Kreuzer wrote:

>> 1) "These are Daeron's Runes, such as were used of old in Moria. Here is
>> written in the tongues of Men and Dwarves..." (A Journey in the Dark)
>>
>> This is the bilingual memorial for Balin.

> Probably Westron, don't you think? I can't quite imagine that they
> wrote it in every language of man in Middle Earth when one language
> would do. Khuzdul is the language of the dwarves.

It's actually in English and Khuzdul. Just look at the page and
translate the runes :-). In /Of Dwarves and Men/, Tolkien argues that
it should really have been Westron and Khuzdul: "But it is of course
in fact an erroneous extension of the general linguistic treatment. It
is one thing to represent all the dialogue of the story in varying
forms of English [...] But it is quite another thing to provide
visible facsimiles or representations of writings or carvings supposed
to be of the date of the events in the narrative."

Of course, that would take away the fun to figuring out the runes,
because one needs to know the language it is written in to be able to
do that.

- Dirk
Re: Writings and Languages in Middle-earth [message #134868 ] Fr, 16 September 2005 13:43
Troels Forchhammer  
In message <news:t7ydnT5f3pUGVbTeRVn-pw [at] rcn.net> Larry Swain
<theswain [at] operamail.com> enriched us with:
>
> Christopher Kreuzer wrote:
>>
>> While taking part in the discussion of Appendix F, I got
>> side-tracked into listing examples where we read about writings
>> and runes in LotR.

You, Christopher, get side-tracked into making a list? Never! ;-)

>> It started with bilingual memorials, and then expanded to cover
>> quite a few other examples of writing.
>>
>> What I was wondering, was whether anyone can confirm or speculate
>> what the languages involved are, and maybe think of further
>> examples.
>>
>> 1) "These are Daeron's Runes, such as were used of old in Moria.
>> Here is written in the tongues of Men and Dwarves..." (A Journey
>> in the Dark)
>>
>> This is the bilingual memorial for Balin.
>
> Probably Westron, don't you think? I can't quite imagine that
> they wrote it in every language of man in Middle Earth when one
> language would do. Khuzdul is the language of the dwarves.

That is, IMO, the most likely scenario.

But in the Third Age dose friendship still was found in
many places between Men and Dwarves; and it was according
to the nature of the Dwarves that, travelling and
labouring and trading about the lands, as they did after
the destruction of their ancient mansions, they should use
the languages of men among whom they dwelt.

The problem is not, of course, the use of Khuzdul (though surprising in
itself), but which mannish tongue was used (assuming only one). These
Dwarves were from Erebor, living in close relation to the Men of Dale,
who didn't speak the Common Tongue, but one closely related to it:

Most of the Men of the northern regions of the Westlands
were descended from the Edain of the First Age, or from
their close kin. Their languages were, therefore, related
to the Adûnaic, and some still preserved a likeness to the
Common Speech. Of this kind were the peoples of the upper
vales of Anduin: the Beornings, and the Woodmen of Western
Mirkwood; and further north and east the Men of the Long
Lake and of Dale.

On the other hand, many of these Dwarves probably had lived with Thorin
in the west, in their halls in the Blue Mountains, during the years
when Smaug occupied the Lonely Mountain, and none of the Dwarves
apparently ever had any problems speaking with Hobbits, who were using
Westron (and, if we go by /The Hobbit/, the Dwarves even used Westron
among themselves in the presence of the Hobbit, but in /The Hobbit/ the
people of Long Lake also spoke Westron, so that may not be the best
guide to use).

All in all I do think that it is most likely that the language of Men
was Westron, but a good case can also be made for the language of Dale
as an alternative.

>> 2) "...for Snowmane they dug a grave and set up a stone upon
>> which was carved in the tongues of Gondor and the Mark..." (The
>> Battle of the Pelennor Fields)
>>
>> This is a bilingual memorial for Snowmane.
>
> Westron and Rohirric.

Yes.

>> Some other bits of writing (though not bilingual) that I've
>> managed to gather together:
>>
>> 1) "...a great horn of the wild ox of the East, bound with
>> silver, and written with ancient characters..." (The Window on
>> the West)
>>
>> This is Faramir talking about Boromir's horn. I wonder what
>> language those characters are in? An ancient language of Men?
>
> Here the reference is explicitly to the "alphabet" which is
> unrelated to language. Likely the inscription is in Sindarin, I'd
> expect, because its a ceremonial piece.

Assuming it to be a Gondorian artefact, yes. I think that is the most
likely background for the Horn because of Denethor's description:

'Verily,' said Denethor. 'And in my turn I bore it, and
so did each eldest son of our house, far back into the
vanished years before the failing of the kings, since
Vorondil father of Mardil hunted the wild kine of Araw in
the far fields of Rhûn.

This implies, IMO, that the source of the horn itself was one of the
oxen that Vorondil slew, and that it then was made into this
beautifully crafted horn. Vorondil died in 2029, under the rule of King
Eärnil II, so it is very likely Sindarin (if not Quenya, even).

>> 2) "...Between them was a narrow space, and there upon a floor of
>> polished stone, written with strange signs, a man might stand
>> five hundred feet above the plain." (The Road to Isengard)
>>
>> This writing is on the topmost level of Orthanc. Again, can we
>> speculate as to what language this is? Numenoreans built Orthanc,
>> so presumably it is Elvish.
>
> I'd assume that too.

What would qualify as 'strange signs' (and to whom were they strange?)

I'm not entirely sure who is the narrator of this part, but neither
Gandalf or Aragorn would, IMO, describe either Tengwar or any version
of the Cirth as 'strange signs', and who else do we know who could be
the source of this description of Orthanc?

I am, however, also reluctant to speculatively suggest the existence of
other, possibly occult or esoteric, signs at Orthanc (unless we can
attribute the signs to Saruman).

I'd say that if the signs are words in a spoken language, then it is
surely an Elvish language, and quite possibly Quenya.

>> 3) "At the top, as high as Gandalf could reach, was an arch of
>> interlacing letters in an Elvish character." (A Journey in the
>> Dark)
>>
>> This is the writing on the Doors of Durin. Elvish characters.
>
> Sindarin isn't it?

Yep.

It's listed as part of the Sindarin Corpus on Ardalambion:
<http://www.uib.no/People/hnohf/sindarin.htm#Heading7>

>> 4) "The Sword of Elendil was forged anew by Elvish smiths, and on
>> its blade was traced a device of seven stars set between the
>> crescent Moon and the rayed Sun, and about them was written many
>> runes..." (The Ring Goes South)
>>
>> Is it safe to assume, given that these are Elvish smiths, that
>> the runes are in an Elvish language?
>
> Again, probably Sindarin

Yes.

If Celebrimbor used Sindarin for the gates of Moria, then it is most
likely that Elrond's smiths (who were probably also fugitives from
Eregion) would use Sindarin.

Its sire, Narsil, had been made by a Dwarf, who would not have made an
inscription in Khuzdul, but, being from Nogrod, was likely to have used
Sindarin as well.

>> 5) "There are evil things written on this hilt, though maybe your
>> eyes cannot see them." (Flight to the Ford)
>>
>> This is Glorfindel talking to Aragorn about the hilt of the
>> Morgul blade that was used to wound Frodo. What language would
>> this be? Black Speech?
>
> I would think so, yes.

Seems likely.

>> 6) "Rangers use runes, and they come here sometimes." (A Knife in
>> the Dark)
>>
>> Would Rangers use Sindarin?
>
> Maybe. LIkely Westron though, I would hink.

Depends ...

Given the close association with Elrond, I think it's likely that most,
if not all, the northern Dúnedain would know Sindarin, and it would
probably be used more often among them than in Gondor, though the
native language, and that for daily usage, would probably be Westron.

With respect to such runes at such a place, they might have chosen to
use Sindarin as the basis because it was less likely to be understood
by evil creatures.

> I think you have the rest right except:
>
>> 14) "Then Eowyn gave to Merry an ancient horn [...] and there
>> were set runes of great virtue." (Many Partings)
>>
>> The ancestor language of the Rohirrim?
>
> Why the ancestor?

'It was made by the Dwarves, and came from the hoard of
Scatha the Worm.'

I don't think we know how many generation there were between Fram, who
slew Scatha, and Léod who was Éorl's father, but if Scatha had already
lain on its treasure for a while, then we might be getting back to
about TA 2200-2500 (between Thorin I leaving Erebor for the Grey
Mountains in 2210 and Éorl's birth in 2485, I'd guess).

The language might be almost anything -- even Khuzdul, if the Dwarves
intended the horn to be only for Dwarves.

If, however, the language is the Mannish language of the region, then
it would make sense that it is the form of the Rohirric language that
was spoken at the time -- but whether that would count as the
'ancestor' I can't tell ;-)

>> 15) Also the G-rune is used by both Gandalf and Galadriel
>> (Gandalf when signing letters and leaving signs at Weathertop and
>> on his fireworks, and Galadriel on the lid of the box she gave to
>> Sam). Saruman also used runes this way, using the S-rune on the
>> helmets of his soldiers.
>
> Right, again the reference to the runic system rather than
> language.

Not quite.

Gandalf and Saruman were particularly their names in Westron (in the
north, even). We know from Gandalf that he had different names
elsewhere, and if he had referred to e.g. Sindarin he would have used
the initial 'M' while Saruman would have used a 'K' rune.

Galadriel, however, is called the same in all languages, though that
particular form of her name is of Sindarin origin, but she
specifically, I think, excludes Westron as the intended inspiration for
the 'G' rune ('but also it may stand for garden in your tongue.')

--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail is <t.forch(a)email.dk>

They both savoured the strange warm glow of being much
more ignorant than ordinary people, who were only ignorant
of ordinary things.
- Discworld scientists at work, /Equal Rites/ (Terry Pratchett)
Re: Writings and Languages in Middle-earth [message #134873 ] Fr, 16 September 2005 14:16
Derek Broughton  
Dirk Thierbach wrote:

> Larry Swain <theswain [at] operamail.com> wrote:
>> Christopher Kreuzer wrote:
>
>>> 1) "These are Daeron's Runes, such as were used of old in Moria. Here is
>>> written in the tongues of Men and Dwarves..." (A Journey in the Dark)
>>>
>>> This is the bilingual memorial for Balin.
>
>> Probably Westron, don't you think? I can't quite imagine that they
>> wrote it in every language of man in Middle Earth when one language
>> would do. Khuzdul is the language of the dwarves.
>
> It's actually in English and Khuzdul. Just look at the page and
> translate the runes :-). In /Of Dwarves and Men/, Tolkien argues that
> it should really have been Westron and Khuzdul: "But it is of course
> in fact an erroneous extension of the general linguistic treatment. It
> is one thing to represent all the dialogue of the story in varying
> forms of English [...] But it is quite another thing to provide
> visible facsimiles or representations of writings or carvings supposed
> to be of the date of the events in the narrative."
>
> Of course, that would take away the fun to figuring out the runes,
> because one needs to know the language it is written in to be able to
> do that.

Interesting. I remember when I first discovered exactly the same thing on
the map in _The Hobbit_. Tolkien's right that it is a cheat to do that
with a "representation of writing", but it's an excusable one.
--
derek
Re: Writings and Languages in Middle-earth [message #134879 ] Fr, 16 September 2005 23:04
Troels Forchhammer  
In message <news:d2mWe.109402$G8.71963 [at] text.news.blueyonder.co.uk>
"Christopher Kreuzer" <spamgard [at] blueyonder.co.uk> enriched us with:
>

<snip>

> The corollary, I forgot to add, being that Fram could have just
> been picking through Scatha's hoard and thought: "Ooh! Look! Nice
> horsies!" and selected that horn as a particular heirloom.

LOL!

I can imagine Frumgar, after a deep sight, just saying, 'Yes, Fram. The
horsies are very nice ...' (after which he sent his son away, turned to
his wife and asked where the Balrog the boy got hold of that?!) ;-)

--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail is <t.forch(a)email.dk>

Taking fun
as simply fun
and earnestness
in earnest
shows how thouroughly
thou none
of the two
discernest.
- Piet Hein, /The Eternal Twins/
Re: Writings and Languages in Middle-earth [message #134906 ] Sa, 17 September 2005 20:32
Gregory Hernandez  
"the softrat" wrote:
> Unless Barad-dur is rebuilt, twice as evil as before, Frodo has triumphed!

Now THAT was funny!
Re: Writings and Languages in Middle-earth [message #134921 ] So, 18 September 2005 06:03
Odysseus  
Larry Swain wrote:
>
> Christopher Kreuzer wrote:

<snip>
> >
> > Some other bits of writing (though not bilingual) that I've managed to
> > gather together:
> >
> > 1) "...a great horn of the wild ox of the East, bound with silver, and
> > written with ancient characters..." (The Window on the West)
> >
> > This is Faramir talking about Boromir's horn. I wonder what language
> > those characters are in? An ancient language of Men?
>
> Here the reference is explicitly to the "alphabet" which is unrelated to
> language. Likely the inscription is in Sindarin, I'd expect, because
> its a ceremonial piece.

The "ancient characters" might be from the alphabet of Rúmil.

> > 2) "...Between them was a narrow space, and there upon a floor of
> > polished stone, written with strange signs, a man might stand five
> > hundred feet above the plain." (The Road to Isengard)
> >
> > This writing is on the topmost level of Orthanc. Again, can we speculate
> > as to what language this is? Numenoreans built Orthanc, so presumably it
> > is Elvish.
>
> I'd assume that too.

I took the "strange signs" to be mandalas or sigils, whether put
there by the builders or connected with Saruman's magical practices,
rather than being linguistic.

> > 3) "At the top, as high as Gandalf could reach, was an arch of
> > interlacing letters in an Elvish character." (A Journey in the Dark)
> >
> > This is the writing on the Doors of Durin. Elvish characters.
>
> Sindarin isn't it?

Yes; the writing style is called the "mode of Beleriand", wherein the
vowels are represented by _tengwar_ instead of _tehtar_ carried on
the following consonants. Cf. the modern Hebrew _plene_ spelling,
where certain I and U vowels are written respectively as _yod_ and
_vau_ rather than as 'points'.

--
Odysseus
Re: Writings and Languages in Middle-earth [message #134922 ] So, 18 September 2005 06:27
danhenry  
On Thu, 15 Sep 2005 22:38:13 -0700, the softrat <softrat [at] pobox.com>
wrote:

>On 15 Sep 2005 12:50:34 -0700, "tenworld" <ten [at] world.std.com> wrote:
>
>>dont you have to distinguish between Runes and language?
>>
>Nope. 'Runes' *is* an alphabet. There are just more than one version:
>Anglo-saxon, Scandanavian-long row, Scandanavian-short row.

But none of these are the 'runes' here. In LOTR, 'runes' means the
Cirth. Which are also an alphabet.

--
R. Dan Henry
danhenry [at] inreach.com
Re: Writings and Languages in Middle-earth [message #134923 ] So, 18 September 2005 06:27
danhenry  
On Thu, 15 Sep 2005 21:52:09 GMT, "Christopher Kreuzer"
<spamgard [at] blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

>Christopher Kreuzer <spamgard [at] blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>>> 14) "Then Eowyn gave to Merry an ancient horn [...] and there were
>>>> set runes of great virtue." (Many Partings)
>
><snip>
>
>> In fact, Eomer says: "It was made by the Dwarves". But we are also
>> told that "wrights had engraven upon it swift horsemen riding in a
>> line". Are we supposed to think that the Rohirric wrights had added
>> to this artifact?
>
>The corollary, I forgot to add, being that Fram could have just been
>picking through Scatha's hoard and thought: "Ooh! Look! Nice horsies!"
>and selected that horn as a particular heirloom.

The Dwarves would certainly have been familiar with horsemen and might
well have thought them a suitable image for a horn, especially if they
thought they might sell it to one of those horsemen.

--
R. Dan Henry
danhenry [at] inreach.com
Re: Writings and Languages in Middle-earth [message #134924 ] So, 18 September 2005 06:27
danhenry  
On Fri, 16 Sep 2005 01:38:32 +0000 (UTC), Emma Pease
<emma [at] kanpai.stanford.edu> wrote:

>In article <t7ydnT5f3pUGVbTeRVn-pw [at] rcn.net>, Larry Swain wrote:
>> Christopher Kreuzer wrote:
>>> While taking part in the discussion of Appendix F, I got side-tracked
>>> into listing examples where we read about writings and runes in LotR. It
>>> started with bilingual memorials, and then expanded to cover quite a few
>>> other examples of writing.
>>>
>>> What I was wondering, was whether anyone can confirm or speculate what
>>> the languages involved are, and maybe think of further examples.
>>>
>>> 1) "These are Daeron's Runes, such as were used of old in Moria. Here is
>>> written in the tongues of Men and Dwarves..." (A Journey in the Dark)

Agree these are probably Westron/Khuzdul. If I really wanted
confirmation, I'd transcribe the runes into the Roman alphabet and see
if it *looked* like Dwarvish. I mean, from the text, it could be "the
tongues" shared by "Men and Dwarves" and be Westron/the language of
Dale.

>>> 1) "...a great horn of the wild ox of the East, bound with silver, and
>>> written with ancient characters..." (The Window on the West)
>>>
>>> This is Faramir talking about Boromir's horn. I wonder what language
>>> those characters are in? An ancient language of Men?
>>
>> Here the reference is explicitly to the "alphabet" which is unrelated to
>> language. Likely the inscription is in Sindarin, I'd expect, because
>> its a ceremonial piece.

>The Dunedain might also have used Quenya. Though note that the
>characters are said to be ancient and not the language so perhaps they
>were in an old style of writing.

They are called neither 'letters' nor 'runes', so they might represent
some form of alphabet not described to us.

I wonder if some non-Elvish alphabet was designed for Adunaic when the
Numenoreans became alienated from the Elves.

>>> 2) "...Between them was a narrow space, and there upon a floor of
>>> polished stone, written with strange signs, a man might stand five
>>> hundred feet above the plain." (The Road to Isengard)
>>>
>>> This writing is on the topmost level of Orthanc. Again, can we speculate
>>> as to what language this is? Numenoreans built Orthanc, so presumably it
>>> is Elvish.
>>
>> I'd assume that too.
>
>Or straight out symbols like those used nowadays for the planets and
>the zodiac.

I wouldn't use the word "written" for such symbols, but it's impossible
to say. I expect it is neither Cirth nor Tengwar, as neither would be
"strange". Perhaps it is the same alphabet as on Boromir's horn? In any
case, I think this is deliberated vague and mysterious. Tolkien may not
have had any particular text, language, or alphabet in mind.

>>> 4) "The Sword of Elendil was forged anew by Elvish smiths, and on its
>>> blade was traced a device of seven stars set between the crescent Moon
>>> and the rayed Sun, and about them was written many runes..." (The Ring
>>> Goes South)
>>>
>>> Is it safe to assume, given that these are Elvish smiths, that the runes
>>> are in an Elvish language?
>>
>> Again, probably Sindarin

>Agreed. The sword was called Anduril which is Sindarin and presumably
>part of the runes on it spell out the name.

It might be bilingual (or even trilingual, but Sindarin/Westron seems
the most likely multilingual choice). It does say *many* runes.

>>> 14) "Then Eowyn gave to Merry an ancient horn [...] and there were set
>>> runes of great virtue." (Many Partings)
>>>
>>> The ancestor language of the Rohirrim?
>
>> Why the ancestor?
>
>Would the Rohirrim create 'runes of great virtue' considering their
>fear of magic in general.

Well, it was long ago, so don't assume the culture was identical. In any
case, these are virtuous runes, so no problem.

--
R. Dan Henry
danhenry [at] inreach.com
Re: Writings and Languages in Middle-earth [message #134925 ] So, 18 September 2005 06:27
danhenry  
On Fri, 16 Sep 2005 11:43:28 GMT, Troels Forchhammer
<Troels [at] ThisIsFake.invalid> wrote:

>With respect to such runes at such a place, they might have chosen to
>use Sindarin as the basis because it was less likely to be understood
>by evil creatures.

But how ignorant of Sindarin were evil things, really? If one discounts
the "personal memory of very, very old orcs" theory, the most probable
means by which Glamdring and Orcrist were recognized is by reading runes
identifying the blades. Trolls would be highly unlikely to read any
tongue. The Nazgul almost certainly knew Sindarin. In any cases, cryptic
shorthand like Gandalf's message was probably more typical than writing
a clear message in any language.

--
R. Dan Henry
danhenry [at] inreach.com
Re: Writings and Languages in Middle-earth [message #134926 ] So, 18 September 2005 12:11
Troels Forchhammer  
In message <news:2jjpi15hpl2ae5j541vev40qs1015d45pv [at] 4ax.com>
R. Dan Henry <danhenry [at] inreach.com> enriched us with:
>
> On Fri, 16 Sep 2005 11:43:28 GMT, Troels Forchhammer
> <Troels [at] ThisIsFake.invalid> wrote:
>>
>> With respect to such runes at such a place, they might have chosen
>> to use Sindarin as the basis because it was less likely to be
>> understood by evil creatures.
>
> But how ignorant of Sindarin were evil things, really? If one
> discounts the "personal memory of very, very old orcs" theory, the
> most probable means by which Glamdring and Orcrist were recognized
> is by reading runes identifying the blades.

I've always favoured the legendary description idea -- that a minute
description of these two weapons (and probably other of similar
importance) were passed down from Orc to Imp for thousands of years.

It is also possible that the Orcs could read the runes and recognise
the Elvish names for the swords, but not know the language in general

I wonder; when Tolkien wrote /The Hobbit/ were the Gnomish tongue
still spoken in Gondolin?

'Orcrist' and 'Glamdring' appear both to be Sindarin, but in BoLT,
the actual language which would become the Grey-elven Sindarin was
the Gnomish of the Noldolin, and I don't know when this changed.

I seem to recall that something is said somewhere about the language
of Gondolin, but I can't find it. That Turgon first named his realm
Ondolindë in Quenya, but it became know by it's Sindarin name,
Gondolin, might be suggestive, I simply don't know.

> Trolls would be highly unlikely to read any tongue.

Certainly not trolls of the kind we saw in /The Hobbit/, which, I
believe, were the norm in the Trollshaws.

> The Nazgul almost certainly knew Sindarin.

Probably, yes.

> In any cases, cryptic shorthand like Gandalf's message was
> probably more typical than writing a clear message in any
> language.

Certainly.

--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail is <t.forch(a)email.dk>
Re: Writings and Languages in Middle-earth [message #134935 ] So, 18 September 2005 23:54
Count Menelvagor  
Troels Forchhammer wrote:
> In message <news:2jjpi15hpl2ae5j541vev40qs1015d45pv [at] 4ax.com>
> R. Dan Henry <danhenry [at] inreach.com> enriched us with:
> >
> > On Fri, 16 Sep 2005 11:43:28 GMT, Troels Forchhammer
> > <Troels [at] ThisIsFake.invalid> wrote:

> It is also possible that the Orcs could read the runes and recognise
> the Elvish names for the swords, but not know the language in general

orcs did use runes; this is mentioned in appendix E and also, i
believe, when sam and frodo were in ithilien.

> 'Orcrist' and 'Glamdring' appear both to be Sindarin, but in BoLT,
> the actual language which would become the Grey-elven Sindarin was
> the Gnomish of the Noldolin, and I don't know when this changed.

i'm not an expert; but the gnomish of BOLT is, aiui, quite a bit
different fom later sindarin. on the other hand, sindarin *was* called
noldorin quite late; the etymologies, which are contemporary with the
beginning of LOTR, still call sidnarin (or a language very close to
sindarin) "noldorin." i don't recall when the concept of "sindarin" as
we now know it arose; some time in the '40s?
Re: Writings and Languages in Middle-earth [message #134946 ] Mo, 19 September 2005 02:56
Christopher Kreuzer  
Emma Pease <emma [at] kanpai.stanford.edu> wrote:
> Larry Swain wrote:
>> Christopher Kreuzer wrote:

<snip>

>>> 2) "...Between them was a narrow space, and there upon a floor of
>>> polished stone, written with strange signs, a man might stand five
>>> hundred feet above the plain." (The Road to Isengard)
>>>
>>> This writing is on the topmost level of Orthanc. Again, can we
>>> speculate as to what language this is? Numenoreans built Orthanc,
>>> so presumably it is Elvish.
>>
>> I'd assume that too.
>
> Or straight out symbols like those used nowadays for the planets and
> the zodiac.

Are you thinking of the bit, soon after the quote above, where we hear
of Orthanc being used for star-gazing by wise men of Gondor? This bit
here:

"A strong place and wonderful was Isengard, and long it had been
beautiful; and there great lords had dwelt, the wardens of Gondor upon
the West, and wise men that watched the stars." (The Road to Isengard)

Christopher

--
---
Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard
Re: Writings and Languages in Middle-earth [message #134953 ] Mo, 19 September 2005 11:24
Tux Wonder-Dog  
Emma Pease wrote:

> In article <t7ydnT5f3pUGVbTeRVn-pw [at] rcn.net>, Larry Swain wrote:
>> Christopher Kreuzer wrote:
>>> While taking part in the discussion of Appendix F, I got side-tracked
>>> into listing examples where we read about writings and runes in LotR. It
>>> started with bilingual memorials, and then expanded to cover quite a few
>>> other examples of writing.
>>>
>>> What I was wondering, was whether anyone can confirm or speculate what
>>> the languages involved are, and maybe think of further examples.
<snip>
>
>>>
>>> 3) "At the top, as high as Gandalf could reach, was an arch of
>>> interlacing letters in an Elvish character." (A Journey in the Dark)
>>>
>>> This is the writing on the Doors of Durin. Elvish characters.
>>
>> Sindarin isn't it?

Pedo Mellon a minno - Say "Friend" and enter.

Sindarin. Quenya would've had the "qu" instead of "p".
>
>
>>> 4) "The Sword of Elendil was forged anew by Elvish smiths, and on its
>>> blade was traced a device of seven stars set between the crescent Moon
>>> and the rayed Sun, and about them was written many runes..." (The Ring
>>> Goes South)
>>>
>>> Is it safe to assume, given that these are Elvish smiths, that the runes
>>> are in an Elvish language?
>>
>> Again, probably Sindarin
>
> Agreed. The sword was called Anduril which is Sindarin and presumably
> part of the runes on it spell out the name.
>
>>> 5) "There are evil things written on this hilt, though maybe your eyes
>>> cannot see them." (Flight to the Ford)
>>>
>>> This is Glorfindel talking to Aragorn about the hilt of the Morgul blade
>>> that was used to wound Frodo. What language would this be? Black Speech?
>>
>> I would think so, yes.
>
> But which character set?

The Black Speech on the One Ring was written in a Sindarin-style tengwar.

I think Sauron would've written the curses on the Morgul-knife in the same
script and the same language.
>
>
>>> 6) "Rangers use runes, and they come here sometimes." (A Knife in the
>>> Dark)
>>>
>>> Would Rangers use Sindarin?
>>
>> Maybe. LIkely Westron though, I would think.
>
> Except that all there was was G and three lines and no word in any
> language. It is the character set here that is important and G is a G
> in both Westron and transliterated Sindarin (Gandalf which the G stood
> for is a Westron name).
>
<snip>

--
"Good, late in to more rewarding well."  "Well, you tonight.  And I was
lookintelligent woman of Ming home.  I trust you with a tender silence."  I
get a word into my hands, a different and unbelike, probably - 'she
fortunate fat woman', wrong word.  I think to me, I justupid.
Let not emacs meta-X dissociate-press write your romantic dialogs...!!!
Re: Writings and Languages in Middle-earth [message #134960 ] Mo, 19 September 2005 15:50
urban  
In article <432e82a2 [at] clear.net.nz>,
Tux Wonder-Dog <wes.parish [at] paradise.net.nz> wrote:
>> part of the runes on it spell out the name.
>>
>>>> 5) "There are evil things written on this hilt, though maybe your eyes
>>>> cannot see them." (Flight to the Ford)
>>>>
>>>> This is Glorfindel talking to Aragorn about the hilt of the Morgul blade
>>>> that was used to wound Frodo. What language would this be? Black Speech?
>>>
>>> I would think so, yes.
>>
>> But which character set?
>
>The Black Speech on the One Ring was written in a Sindarin-style tengwar.
>
>I think Sauron would've written the curses on the Morgul-knife in the same
>script and the same language.

I don't know what you mean by "Sindarin-style tengwar" here. The
illustration found in most volumes is in a calligraphic style
different from the other specimens we see (oddly, the one-volume
centennial edition contains a different illustration); and the
values of the tehtar are different from Sindarin, with the right-hand
curl being used for 'u' rather than 'o'. The tengwar are adaptable
to many languages, and are so adapted by Sauron here.

But I agree, Sauron had evidently devised no letters of his own
suitable for inscriptions such as we see on the Ring, and it is
likely that his smiths would inscribe similar letters (still using
Black Speech) on the Morgul-knife, although the method of inscription
-- invisible to mortal eyes -- is a dark secret.
Re: Writings and Languages in Middle-earth [message #134963 ] Mo, 19 September 2005 17:00
Troels Forchhammer  
In message
<news:1127080454.218694.194100 [at] z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com> "Count
Menelvagor" <Menelvagor [at] mailandnews.com> enriched us with:
>
> Troels Forchhammer wrote:
>>
>> It is also possible that the Orcs could read the runes and
>> recognise the Elvish names for the swords, but not know the
>> language in general
>
> orcs did use runes; this is mentioned in appendix E and also, i
> believe, when sam and frodo were in ithilien.

Yes.

[...] and the newer wounds made by the Orcs and other foul
servants of the Dark Lord: a pit of uncovered filth and
refuse; trees hewn down wantonly and left to die, with
evil runes or the fell sign of the Eye cut in rude strokes
on their bark.
[LotR IV,4 'Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit']

As long as it is written in characters I can read, then I can recognise
names in many languages regardless of whether I know the language or
not. All the Orcs would have to know in order to benefit from the runes
on Glamdring and Orcrist was the two names of the swords (if the names
are not on the swords, then they weren't likely to have more use of
being able to read the runes, than of the general appearance of the
swords -- it doesn't, IMO, matter whether the handed-down knowledge is
the general appearance or the text).

>> 'Orcrist' and 'Glamdring' appear both to be Sindarin, but in
>> BoLT, the actual language which would become the Grey-elven
>> Sindarin was the Gnomish of the Noldolin, and I don't know when
>> this changed.
>
> i'm not an expert; but the gnomish of BOLT is, aiui, quite a bit
> different fom later sindarin.

I was thinking of this passage from BoLT-2 'The Music of the Ainur',
where Christopher explains a remark by Rúmil:

It will be seen from Rúmil's remarks that the 'deep
sundering' of the speech of the Elves into two branches was
at this time given an historical basis wholly different
from that which afterwards caused the division. Here, Rúmil
ascribes it to 'the long wandering of the Noldoli about the
Earth and the black ages of their thraldom while their kin
dwelt yet in Valinor' - in later terms, 'the Exile of the
Noldor'. In The Silmarillion (see especially pp. 113, 129)
the Noldor brought the Valinórean tongue to Middle-earth
but abandoned it (save among themselves), and adopted
instead the language of Beleriand, Sindarin of the
Grey-elves, who had never been to Valinor. Quenya and
Sindarin were of common origin, but their 'deep sundering'
had been brought about through vast ages of separation. In
the Lost Tales, on the other hand, the Noldor still brought
the Elvish speech of Valinor to the Great Lands, but they
retained it, and there it itself changed and became wholly
different. In other words, in the original conception the
'second tongue' only split off from the parent speech
through the departure of the Gnomes from Valinor into the
Great Lands; whereas afterwards the 'second tongue'
separated from the 'first tongue' near the very beginning
of Elvish existence in the world. Nonetheless, Gnomish is
Sindarin, in the sense that Gnomish is the actual language
that ultimately, as the whole conception evolved, became
that of the Grey-elves of Beleriand.

In this case, the names 'Glamdring' and 'Orcrist' are in the language
that was sundered from the tongue the Elves spoke in Valinor, but was
that, when Tolkien wrote TH, because it was in 'Gnomish' or because it
was in Sindarin?

> on the other hand, sindarin *was* called noldorin quite late; the
> etymologies, which are contemporary with the beginning of LOTR,
> still call sidnarin (or a language very close to sindarin)
> "noldorin." i don't recall when the concept of "sindarin" as we
> now know it arose; some time in the '40s?

In that case it would seem likely that the names Glamdring and Orcrist
were chosen in that language, not because the Noldor of Gondolin had
adopted the Grey-elven tongue, but because it was the way the language
they brought with them from Valinor had developed ... The same
language, obviously, but two different historical explanations for
speaking that language.

--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail is <t.forch(a)email.dk>

Taking fun
as simply fun
and earnestness
in earnest
shows how thouroughly
thou none
of the two
discernest.
- Piet Hein, /The Eternal Twins/
Re: Writings and Languages in Middle-earth [message #136521 ] Di, 20 September 2005 00:44
Christopher Kreuzer  
Michael Urban <urban [at] panix.com> wrote:

<snip>

> But I agree, Sauron had evidently devised no letters of his own
> suitable for inscriptions such as we see on the Ring, and it is
> likely that his smiths would inscribe similar letters (still using
> Black Speech) on the Morgul-knife, although the method of inscription
> -- invisible to mortal eyes -- is a dark secret.

That reminds me. Why would Glorfindel be able to see the writing on the
hilt of the Morgul-knife, but not anyone else?

Christopher

--
---
Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard
Re: Writings and Languages in Middle-earth [message #136536 ] Di, 20 September 2005 06:41
danhenry  
On Mon, 19 Sep 2005 22:44:26 GMT, "Christopher Kreuzer"
<spamgard [at] blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

>Michael Urban <urban [at] panix.com> wrote:
>
><snip>
>
>> But I agree, Sauron had evidently devised no letters of his own
>> suitable for inscriptions such as we see on the Ring, and it is
>> likely that his smiths would inscribe similar letters (still using
>> Black Speech) on the Morgul-knife, although the method of inscription
>> -- invisible to mortal eyes -- is a dark secret.
>
>That reminds me. Why would Glorfindel be able to see the writing on the
>hilt of the Morgul-knife, but not anyone else?

Not nobody else, just not those who can't see the "other world" where
the ringwraiths themselves are visible and Glorfindel shines like a
halogen lamp. He's, Superelf, remember? Aragorn might not be able to see
them, but I bet Gandalf would.

Although I wouldn't assume Sauron made the knives himself. It could have
been one of his more powerful servants, perhaps even the Witch-King.

--
R. Dan Henry
danhenry [at] inreach.com
Re: Writings and Languages in Middle-earth [message #139042 ] Mo, 26 September 2005 03:21
Igenlode  
[repost]
Troels Forchhammer <Troels [at] ThisIsFake.invalid> wrote in message <Xns96D6AE8A37863T.Forch [at] 131.228.6.98>

[snip]
> All the Orcs would have to know in order to benefit from the runes
> on Glamdring and Orcrist was the two names of the swords (if the names
> are not on the swords, then they weren't likely to have more use of
> being able to read the runes, than of the general appearance of the
> swords -- it doesn't, IMO, matter whether the handed-down knowledge is
> the general appearance or the text).
>
Reading an inscription on a sword-blade (even in fair copperplate
English!) requires peering closely with your head turned sideways; I
find it hard to imagine that the Orcs ever had the time or opportunity
to decipher faint lines on swords being used to attack them.

I think I'd assume that the swords were recognisable by some other
trait, e.g. they had a distinctive jewel set into the hilt (or even the
blade -- now that would be unusual ;-), or bright inlay-work that could
be glimpsed from a distance. Obviously it would be more concise to hand
down the knowledge that there was a sword called 'Glamdring' with its
name written on it, than that Elvish swords could be recognised by the
style of their hilts and that if you saw one with a certain unusual
feature, then you should beware -- but the latter knowledge might prove
more helpful in practice.
--
Igenlode Wordsmith <Igenlode_W [at] nym.alias.net>

- I don't want to 'fit in' any more... - That makes two of us!
Re: Writings and Languages in Middle-earth [message #139053 ] Sa, 24 September 2005 00:07
Igenlode  
[repost]
Troels Forchhammer <Troels [at] ThisIsFake.invalid> wrote in message <Xns96D6AE8A37863T.Forch [at] 131.228.6.98>

[snip]
> All the Orcs would have to know in order to benefit from the runes
> on Glamdring and Orcrist was the two names of the swords (if the names
> are not on the swords, then they weren't likely to have more use of
> being able to read the runes, than of the general appearance of the
> swords -- it doesn't, IMO, matter whether the handed-down knowledge is
> the general appearance or the text).
>
Reading an inscription on a sword-blade (even in fair copperplate
English!) requires peering closely with your head turned sideways; I
find it hard to imagine that the Orcs ever had the time or opportunity
to decipher faint lines on swords being used to attack them.

I think I'd assume that the swords were recognisable by some other
trait, e.g. they had a distinctive jewel set into the hilt (or even the
blade -- now that would be unusual ;-), or bright inlay-work that could
be glimpsed from a distance. Obviously it would be more concise to hand
down the knowledge that there was a sword called 'Glamdring' with its
name written on it, than that Elvish swords could be recognised by the
style of their hilts and that if you saw one with a certain unusual
feature, then you should beware -- but the latter knowledge might prove
more helpful in practice.
--
Igenlode Wordsmith <Igenlode_W [at] nym.alias.net>

- I don't want to 'fit in' any more... - That makes two of us!
Re: Writings and Languages in Middle-earth [message #140100 ] Mo, 26 September 2005 14:21
Troels Forchhammer  
In message <news:20050926021301.31150.qmail [at] nym.alias.net> Igenlode
Wordsmith <Use-Author-Supplied-Address-Header [at] [127.1]> enriched us
with:
>
> Troels Forchhammer <Troels [at] ThisIsFake.invalid> wrote in message
> <Xns96D6AE8A37863T.Forch [at] 131.228.6.98>
>>
>> All the Orcs would have to know in order to benefit from the
>> runes on Glamdring and Orcrist was the two names of the swords
[...]
>
> Reading an inscription on a sword-blade (even in fair copperplate
> English!) requires peering closely with your head turned sideways;
> I find it hard to imagine that the Orcs ever had the time or
> opportunity to decipher faint lines on swords being used to attack
> them.

Not with Glamdring, I know, and the 'Great Goblin' didn't exactly
take time to peer closely, turning the blade to catch the light of
the torches just right, when he was handed Orcrist, did he ...

The Great Goblin gave a truly awful howl of rage when
he looked at it, and all his soldiers gnashed their teeth,
clashed their shields, and stamped. They knew the sword at
once. It had killed hundreds of goblins in its time, when
the fair elves of Gondolin hunted them in the hills or did
battle before their walls. They had called it Orcrist,
Goblin-cleaver, but the goblins called it simply Biter.
They hated it and hated worse any one that carried it.

> I think I'd assume that the swords were recognisable by some other
> trait,

So would I. Even though I forgot the fast recognition by the Great
Goblin when I called it possible that the Orcs would have read the
runes, I still favour the handed-down description:

Troels Forchhammer wrote:
>>>> I've always favoured the legendary description idea -- that a
>>>> minute description of these two weapons (and probably other of
>>>> similar importance) were passed down from Orc to Imp for
>>>> thousands of years.

--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail is <t.forch(a)email.dk>

Knowing what
thou knowest not
is in a sense
omniscience
- Piet Hein, /Omniscience/
Re: Writings and Languages in Middle-earth [message #140156 ] Di, 27 September 2005 15:17
MightyRavenscar  
I imagine it's a bit like an old fashion fighter pilot Ace. His plane
looks very similar to all of the others, but because of his reputation,
his enemies know every detail of the plane. They can identify it at
once. I think I would remember a sword if it killed my brother and my
uncle, and my cousin, etc...

www.strongblade.com
Swords and Other Weapons of Honor
Re: Writings and Languages in Middle-earth [message #141203 ] Mi, 28 September 2005 17:27
danhenry  
On Mon, 26 Sep 2005 12:21:42 GMT, Troels Forchhammer
<Troels [at] ThisIsFake.invalid> wrote:

>Not with Glamdring, I know, and the 'Great Goblin' didn't exactly
>take time to peer closely, turning the blade to catch the light of
>the torches just right, when he was handed Orcrist, did he ...
>
> The Great Goblin gave a truly awful howl of rage when
> he looked at it, and all his soldiers gnashed their teeth,
> clashed their shields, and stamped. They knew the sword at
> once. It had killed hundreds of goblins in its time, when
> the fair elves of Gondolin hunted them in the hills or did
> battle before their walls. They had called it Orcrist,
> Goblin-cleaver, but the goblins called it simply Biter.
> They hated it and hated worse any one that carried it.

They're speed-readers. Elves take their time, they're patient, Orcs want
to scan the runes and know what's what right away. I still find that
more likely than that these swords had a distinguishing feature that
could correctly be handed down for millennia (assuming mortal Orcs), but
which Bilbo somehow failed to mention. "Oh, yes, Frodo, Glamdring *does*
have an emerald the size of my fist embedded in the blade. I just didn't
think it worth mentioning in my book."

--
R. Dan Henry
danhenry [at] inreach.com
Vorheriges Thema:Could LOTR have been written in earlier times?
Nächstes Thema:Re: Man, Mr. bush Jr. sure is wicked evil eh?
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