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Fantasy » alt.fan.tolkien » Re: COTW: Appendix F.1 The Languages and Peoples of the Third Age
Re: COTW: Appendix F.1 The Languages and Peoples of the Third Age [message #132166] Di, 13 September 2005 21:50
Christopher Kreuzer  
[Restoring AFT]

Larry Swain <theswain [at] operamail.com> wrote:
> Emma Pease wrote:

<snip>

Larry quoted this bit, and I wanted to comment on it briefly:

> "The Dunedain alone of all races of Men knew and spoke an Elvish
> tongue

"alone of all races". Does this apply throughout the time period
covered, or is Tolkien referring specifically to a point in the Second
Age? If he is referring to the Third Age as well, then it means that the
people of Rohan, apart from Theoden, would not speak any Elvish tongue,
not even the nobility.

Also, note that it says that they "spoke" Elvish. Certainly when the
Edain of Beleriand had been living with Elves in Beleriand, some would
have spoken Sindarin as fluently as their birth tongue. It would have
been more than just a language of lore then. The process of change may
have been gradual, with the fluency of the population of
Sindarin-speakers decreasing with the years as it was less often learnt
from birth, and maybe more often learnt in later years and needed to
converse with the Eldar that visited Numenor.

> for their forefathers had learned the Sindarin tongue, and
> this they handed on to their children as a matter of lore, changing
> little with the passing of the years. And their men of wisdom
> learned also the High-elven Quenya and esteemed it above all other
> tongues, and in it they made names for many places of fame and
> reverence, and for many men of royalty and great renown.

Larry then emphasised the following:

> BUT THE NATIVE SPEECH OF THE NUMENOREANS
> REMAINED FOR THE MOST PART THEIR ANCESTRAL
> MANNISH TONGUE, THE ADUNAIC

"for the most part"?

Does this not imply that some Numenoreans did not have Adunaic as their
birth tongue? I'm not suggesting that the implied exceptions to the rule
were learning an Elvish language. It would make more sense if some were
learning this Common Speech, or some debased form of Adunaic (as opposed
to the pure Adunaic found in Numenor). Tolkien might possibly be
implying that those Numenoreans living on the coasts of Middle-earth,
the colonists so to speak, are the ones that were "going native" so to
speak and adopting a new birth tongue. But see also the next comment.

> AND TO THIS IN
> THE LATTER DAYS OF THEIR PRIDE THEIR KINGS AND
> LORDS RETURNED

They "returned" to Adunaic? In the context of a sentence that starts off
by talking about "native speech", how can you "return" to a native
speech except by having a different native speech to begin with?

> ABANDONING THE ELVEN
> SPEECH, SAVE ONLY THOSE FEW THAT HELD STILL
> TO THEIR ANCIENT FRIENDSHIP WITH THE ELDAR..."
> Tolkien, Appendix F, Of Men.
>
> I. E. The "birth" language of the Numenoreans was Adunaic, they
> learned Sindarin, and a few learned Quenya. In the latter years,
> most rejected things and languages Elven, the Faithful continued to
> preserve it AS A MATTER OF LORE, but their birth language was
> Adunaic.

I don't think that entirely follows from what you quoted.
My commentary above should show why I think this.

Emma then wrote:
>> Well for people like Aragorn who was raised in Rivendell, almost
>> certainly as a birth tongue.

And you replied:
> How do you figure? Do not Elendil and his people know Westron? Do
> not a number of them speak it fluently?

Elendil knew Westron? In Appendix F it seems to say that the process of
Westron forming from the various sources is still very much ongoing in
Elendil's time. I would have thought it very possible that you would
have had translators for the first few years after the Downfall. It says
that they used the Common Speech, but that does not imply fluency.

> That Aragorn knew and spoke
> Sindarin I think a given, that it was his "birth" language simply
> because he was born in Rivendell goes against the evidence.

It depends how old he was. He wasn't born in Rivendell, but was taken
there to live (with his mother) when he was 2 years old, when his father
was slain, and it is implied that this was done because he was now "the
Heir of Isildur".

It is said elsewhere that the sons of the chieftains were fostered in
Rivendell, but this description of the process for Aragorn implies to me
(unless Tolkien is being inconsistent) that it was normal for the first
few years of life for a son of the Chieftain of the Dunedain to be spent
with his birth kindred, and only later (probably after learning the
birth tongue of the Dunedain of the North in the Third Age) being
fostered in Rivendell. It looks like Aragorn was taken to Rivendell
_early_ because his father died early and he was now the Heir.

As a side note: I wonder who ruled the Dunedain until Aragorn came of
age? Would they have had a steward-type figure?

And being raised in Rivendell from such an earlier age (possibly earlier
than normal for a son of the Cheiftains of the Dunedain) may have made
things different for Aragorn, and he may have been more fluent in
Sindarin?

We do see Glorfindel cry out to Aragorn in Sindarin (the "Mae govannen"
bit in 'Flight to the Ford'), but we are not told what language the
subsequent conversation was in.

There is Elvish singing in the Hall of Fire at Rivendell.

In Lothlorien, we see Legolas and Haldir speak in another Elvish tongue,
that Frodo does not understand. I wonder if Aragorn would have
understood it?

We also read about Aragorn murmuring as in a dream to Arwen, at Cerin
Amroth: "Arwen vanimelda, namarie". So we can now ask ourselves what
language Aragorn spoke to Arwen in? Would they have mixed Sindarin and
Westron, or spoken mostly Sindarin?

<snip>

Christopher

--
---
Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard
Re: COTW: Appendix F.1 The Languages and Peoples of the Third Age [message #132180 ] Mi, 14 September 2005 00:14
Larry Swain  
Christopher Kreuzer wrote:
> [Restoring AFT]
>
> Larry Swain <theswain [at] operamail.com> wrote:
>
>>Emma Pease wrote:
>
>
> <snip>
>
> Larry quoted this bit, and I wanted to comment on it briefly:
>
>
>>"The Dunedain alone of all races of Men knew and spoke an Elvish
>>tongue
>
>
> "alone of all races". Does this apply throughout the time period
> covered, or is Tolkien referring specifically to a point in the Second
> Age?

I think the larger period is in view, not just the second age. Even if
not, however, there is no evidence that any other peoples (whether men,
dwarves, ents, orcs, trolls, etc) spoke an elven tongue.



If he is referring to the Third Age as well, then it means that the
> people of Rohan, apart from Theoden, would not speak any Elvish tongue,
> not even the nobility.

True, and do we have any evidence that any of them did, including
Theoden, who spoke Westron?


>
> Also, note that it says that they "spoke" Elvish. Certainly when the
> Edain of Beleriand had been living with Elves in Beleriand, some would
> have spoken Sindarin as fluently as their birth tongue. It would have
> been more than just a language of lore then.

Depends on who they are speaking to, doesn't it? I think in the First
Age we're talking about the men who interact with elves, rather than all
the members of all 3 houses all the time, or even most of any of those.
I. E. those for whom it was not "just a language of lore" would have
been small in number of the whole. I think the analogy of Latin in
medieval Europe a good model here: there are some who were very fluent
in speaking and reading and composing in Latin. Many more who could
figure some stuff out, but chiefly it was used for diplomacy as a spoken
language when the principles didn't speak a common tongue.




>
>
> Larry then emphasised the following:
>
>
>>BUT THE NATIVE SPEECH OF THE NUMENOREANS
>>REMAINED FOR THE MOST PART THEIR ANCESTRAL
>>MANNISH TONGUE, THE ADUNAIC
>
>
> "for the most part"?
>
> Does this not imply that some Numenoreans did not have Adunaic as their
> birth tongue?

It could, I suppose, but do we really think that Tolkien meant it to be
read that way rather than just as an intensifier?

I'm not suggesting that the implied exceptions to the rule
> were learning an Elvish language. It would make more sense if some were
> learning this Common Speech, or some debased form of Adunaic (as opposed
> to the pure Adunaic found in Numenor).

Which Tolkien suggests at the end of the paragraph and in the next
paragraph: "In the years of their power the Numenoreans had maintained
many forts and havens upon the western coasts of ME for the help of
their ships; and one of the chief of these was at Pelargir....There
Adunaic was spoken and mingled with many words of the languages of
lesser men it became a Common Speech that spread thence along the coasts
among all that had dealings with Westerness.


Tolkien might possibly be
> implying that those Numenoreans living on the coasts of Middle-earth,
> the colonists so to speak, are the ones that were "going native" so to
> speak and adopting a new birth tongue. But see also the next comment.

NOt really, more that the birth tongue, Adunaic, was beginning to change
in Middle Earth through influence with the languages of other men whom
the Numenoreans ruled.

>
>>AND TO THIS IN
>>THE LATTER DAYS OF THEIR PRIDE THEIR KINGS AND
>>LORDS RETURNED
>
>
> They "returned" to Adunaic? In the context of a sentence that starts off
> by talking about "native speech", how can you "return" to a native
> speech except by having a different native speech to begin with?

In the pre-modern period, send an ambassador from Italy to England: the
ambassador speaks Italian, his audience speaks English, and in between
is Latin. He's likely either going to learn English or speak Latin to
be understood and carry out his embassage. Neither language is his
native language.

Or to put this in boring ol' prose: Tolkien pretty specifically states
that Sindarin and Quenya are learned languages in Numenor. He indicates
less clearly that the language of the Numenorean court was Sindarin, as
(if we continue the analogy) many native English speakers of the 12-14th
centuries learned French as the language of court, but upon leaving
court they "returned" to their native language.

In this case, we know that Sindarin is a learned language. We also can
safely suspect that the Numenorean court at first used Sindarin as the
language of court. When they began to doubt and question the Ban and
all that, they stopped using Sindarin, and "returned" to using Adunaic
as the language of court and culture, except for the Faithful.

On the other hand, if you have native speech B, but your ancestors had
native speech A, how will you return to native speech A unless someone
is still around to teach it to you? Nowhere does Tolkien suggest that
Sindarin was the native language of Numenor, nowhere does he suggest
that Adunaic was "learned" or "studied" though he does do so in regards
to the elven tongues. It seems to me that the answer to your query
simply is that "turning again" to their native language is not an
implication that Sindarin was their native speech, but that they used
Sindarin, a learned language, and later abandoned the learned language
in favor of their native tongue.


>
>>ABANDONING THE ELVEN
>>SPEECH, SAVE ONLY THOSE FEW THAT HELD STILL
>>TO THEIR ANCIENT FRIENDSHIP WITH THE ELDAR..."
>>Tolkien, Appendix F, Of Men.
>>
>>I. E. The "birth" language of the Numenoreans was Adunaic, they
>>learned Sindarin, and a few learned Quenya. In the latter years,
>>most rejected things and languages Elven, the Faithful continued to
>>preserve it AS A MATTER OF LORE, but their birth language was
>>Adunaic.
>
>
> I don't think that entirely follows from what you quoted.
> My commentary above should show why I think this.

How does this not follow? A. BUT THE NATIVE SPEECH OF THE NUMENOREANS
>>REMAINED FOR THE MOST PART THEIR ANCESTRAL
>>MANNISH TONGUE, THE ADUNAIC--Christopher, according to Tolkien, the
native speech of the Numenoreans was Adunaic, not Sindarin, so that
follows. Where does he say that Sindarin was ever a native language of
any human group,even the Numenoreans? Nowhere I know of. He does
explicitly say that they LEARNED Sindarin and they learned Quenya. So
that follows. We know from the Silm and from earlier in the appendices
that the majority of the Numenoreans rejected things Elven, save the
Faithful, when they began to question and chafe at the ban...so that
follows.


>
> Emma then wrote:
>
>>>Well for people like Aragorn who was raised in Rivendell, almost
>>>certainly as a birth tongue.
>
>
> And you replied:
>
>>How do you figure? Do not Elendil and his people know Westron? Do
>>not a number of them speak it fluently?
>
>
> Elendil knew Westron?

Sorry, I meant Elrond.


>>That Aragorn knew and spoke
>>Sindarin I think a given, that it was his "birth" language simply
>>because he was born in Rivendell goes against the evidence.
>
>
> And being raised in Rivendell from such an earlier age (possibly earlier
> than normal for a son of the Cheiftains of the Dunedain) may have made
> things different for Aragorn, and he may have been more fluent in
> Sindarin?

Being more fluent, particularly as an adult, isn't the point I'm
contending. The point I'm contending is Emma's claim that Sindarin was
Aragorn's BIRTH LANGUAGE, and was the birth language of ALL the Dunedain
in the North.


> We do see Glorfindel cry out to Aragorn in Sindarin (the "Mae govannen"
> bit in 'Flight to the Ford'), but we are not told what language the
> subsequent conversation was in.
>
> There is Elvish singing in the Hall of Fire at Rivendell.
>
> In Lothlorien, we see Legolas and Haldir speak in another Elvish tongue,
> that Frodo does not understand. I wonder if Aragorn would have
> understood it?
>
> We also read about Aragorn murmuring as in a dream to Arwen, at Cerin
> Amroth: "Arwen vanimelda, namarie". So we can now ask ourselves what
> language Aragorn spoke to Arwen in? Would they have mixed Sindarin and
> Westron, or spoken mostly Sindarin?

None of which demonstrate that Aragorn's native, first, "birth" language
was Sindarin, only that as an adult he was fluent, a point I would agree
with.
Re: COTW: Appendix F.1 The Languages and Peoples of the Third Age [message #132181 ] Mi, 14 September 2005 01:12
Christopher Kreuzer  
Larry Swain <theswain [at] operamail.com> wrote:
> Christopher Kreuzer wrote:
>> [Restoring AFT]
>>
>> Larry Swain <theswain [at] operamail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Emma Pease wrote:
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>> Larry quoted this bit, and I wanted to comment on it briefly:
>>
>>> "The Dunedain alone of all races of Men knew and spoke an Elvish
>>> tongue
>>
>> "alone of all races". Does this apply throughout the time period
>> covered, or is Tolkien referring specifically to a point in the
>> Second Age?
>
> I think the larger period is in view, not just the second age. Even
> if not, however, there is no evidence that any other peoples (whether
> men, dwarves, ents, orcs, trolls, etc) spoke an elven tongue.

OK. This bit was because of my confusion below.

> If he is referring to the Third Age as well, then it means that the
>> people of Rohan, apart from Theoden, would not speak any Elvish
>> tongue, not even the nobility.
>
> True, and do we have any evidence that any of them did, including
> Theoden, who spoke Westron?

Oops. I got confused here and thought that the bits about Theoden
learning a second language were talking about him learning Sindarin in
Gondor. Silly me. It was saying he learnt 'high' Westron, as I realised
in another post. Sorry about that.

>> Also, note that it says that they "spoke" Elvish. Certainly when the
>> Edain of Beleriand had been living with Elves in Beleriand, some
>> would have spoken Sindarin as fluently as their birth tongue. It
>> would have been more than just a language of lore then.
>
> Depends on who they are speaking to, doesn't it? I think in the First
> Age we're talking about the men who interact with elves, rather than
> all the members of all 3 houses all the time, or even most of any of
> those. I. E. those for whom it was not "just a language of lore"
> would have
> been small in number of the whole.

I vaguely remember that in the early days some sons of the Edain went
off to serve in Elvish households. But you are probably right about the
number being small. Moving away from birth tongues, how many Men would
have learnt Sindarin to communicate with the Elves, and how many Elves
would have learnt Adunaic to communicate with Men? And would the dwarves
have learnt Sindarin and Adunaic to communicate with Men and Elves in
the First Age? I guess what I am saying is: was there another 'Common
Speech' that was used in the First Age (and maybe even the Second Age),
and was it different from the Westron of the Third Age?

There are references to Andunaic being enriched and softened by the
influence of Sindarin in the First Age, but I wonder whether it went
further than that, and if not, why not? I couldn't find anything
definite in Appendix F. Did Tolkien say anything in HoME or /The
Silmarillion/ about First Age languages and a First Age 'Common Speech'
or were the populations and timescales too small? I think it was only a
few hundred years from the Return of the Noldor to the War of Wrath.

There are definitely Men who dwelt for long periods of time with Elves.
We know that Turin lived in Doriath for many years, and also in
Nargothrond. Beren had to speak with Luthien somehow. And Hurin and Huor
spent time in Gondolin. Tuor stayed in Gondolin and married (and
hopefully talked with) Idril and was high in the counsel of Turgon. Lots
of Sindarin there. I guess all these examples of Men living with Elves
would have Adunaic as their birth tongues, with varying levels of skill
in Sindarin for the Men.

But what about the offspring of parents with different birth tongues? I
wonder what Earendil's birth tongue was? What about Dior? What about
Eldarian for that matter. Would Arwen have taught Sindarin to him and
his sisters?

> I think the analogy of Latin in
> medieval Europe a good model here: there are some who were very fluent
> in speaking and reading and composing in Latin. Many more who could
> figure some stuff out, but chiefly it was used for diplomacy as a
> spoken language when the principles didn't speak a common tongue.

Would that fit the First Age issues I raised above? Would Sindarin have
been the Common Tongue of First Age Beleriand?

>> Larry then emphasised the following:
>>
>>> BUT THE NATIVE SPEECH OF THE NUMENOREANS
>>> REMAINED FOR THE MOST PART THEIR ANCESTRAL
>>> MANNISH TONGUE, THE ADUNAIC
>>
>> "for the most part"?
>>
>> Does this not imply that some Numenoreans did not have Adunaic as
>> their birth tongue?
>
> It could, I suppose, but do we really think that Tolkien meant it to
> be read that way rather than just as an intensifier?

Maybe you could give an example of where the phrase "for the most part"
is used as an intensifier without implying that there is an exception to
the rule?

> I'm not suggesting that the implied exceptions to the rule
>> were learning an Elvish language. It would make more sense if some
>> were learning this Common Speech, or some debased form of Adunaic
>> (as opposed to the pure Adunaic found in Numenor).
>
> Which Tolkien suggests at the end of the paragraph and in the next
> paragraph: "In the years of their power the Numenoreans had maintained
> many forts and havens upon the western coasts of ME for the help of
> their ships; and one of the chief of these was at Pelargir....There
> Adunaic was spoken and mingled with many words of the languages of
> lesser men it became a Common Speech that spread thence along the
> coasts among all that had dealings with Westerness.
>
> Tolkien might possibly be
>> implying that those Numenoreans living on the coasts of Middle-earth,
>> the colonists so to speak, are the ones that were "going native" so
>> to speak and adopting a new birth tongue. But see also the next
>> comment.
>
> NOt really, more that the birth tongue, Adunaic, was beginning to
> change in Middle Earth through influence with the languages of
> other men whom the Numenoreans ruled.

That is definitely a better way to put it. But my point is that you
couldn't really say that these Numenoreans had the same birth tongue as
the Numenoreans back in Numenor. At what point does a divergence produce
a totally new language? I guess without isolation, the change is
gradual, but if the forces driving the change continue to have their
effect, at some point the lack of comprehension between speakers of
languages diverging from a common root reaches a critical level.

But hey. I'm sure there is LOTS of theory out there about this!

>>> AND TO THIS IN
>>> THE LATTER DAYS OF THEIR PRIDE THEIR KINGS AND
>>> LORDS RETURNED

If I understand what you have said below, the above fragment is saying:

"...and to this [native speech called Adunaic] in the latter days of
their pride their Kings and Lords returned[,] [using it as their courtly
language instead of Sindarin]."

>> They "returned" to Adunaic? In the context of a sentence that starts
>> off by talking about "native speech", how can you "return" to a
>> native speech except by having a different native speech to begin
>> with?
>
> In the pre-modern period, send an ambassador from Italy to England:
> the ambassador speaks Italian, his audience speaks English, and in
> between
> is Latin. He's likely either going to learn English or speak Latin to
> be understood and carry out his embassage. Neither language is his
> native language.
>
> Or to put this in boring ol' prose: Tolkien pretty specifically states
> that Sindarin and Quenya are learned languages in Numenor. He
> indicates less clearly that the language of the Numenorean court was
> Sindarin, as (if we continue the analogy) many native English
> speakers of the 12-14th centuries learned French as the language of
> court, but upon leaving
> court they "returned" to their native language.
>
> In this case, we know that Sindarin is a learned language. We also
> can safely suspect that the Numenorean court at first used Sindarin
> as the language of court. When they began to doubt and question the
> Ban and
> all that, they stopped using Sindarin, and "returned" to using Adunaic
> as the language of court and culture, except for the Faithful.

You've convinced me. Thanks! :-)

> On the other hand, if you have native speech B, but your ancestors had
> native speech A, how will you return to native speech A unless someone
> is still around to teach it to you?

Doh! Should have thought of that!

> Nowhere does Tolkien suggest that
> Sindarin was the native language of Numenor, nowhere does he suggest
> that Adunaic was "learned" or "studied" though he does do so in
> regards
> to the elven tongues. It seems to me that the answer to your query
> simply is that "turning again" to their native language is not an
> implication that Sindarin was their native speech, but that they used
> Sindarin, a learned language, and later abandoned the learned language
> in favor of their native tongue.

It all seems so clear now!

>>> ABANDONING THE ELVEN
>>> SPEECH

[as their learned language]

>>> SAVE ONLY THOSE FEW THAT HELD STILL
>>> TO THEIR ANCIENT FRIENDSHIP WITH THE ELDAR..."

Noting that this was still a learned language, BUT, the Faithful of the
Second Age were interacting with native speakers of the language. This
situation contrasts sharply with many of the speakers of Sindarin in the
Third Age. Specifically, for the Gondorians, Sindarin really was now a
language of lore as they were no longer interacting with the Eldar. By
contrast, Aragorn at least, and maybe a proportion of the Northern
Dunedain, were still interacting with Elves who were native speakers of
Sindarin.

Maybe not really related to the preceding discussion, but something I
thought of just now. I know the thread was about 'The Languages and
Peoples of the Third Age', but I'm finding this discussion of First Age
and Second Age stuff very interesting!

>>> Tolkien, Appendix F, Of Men.
>>>
>>> I. E. The "birth" language of the Numenoreans was Adunaic, they
>>> learned Sindarin, and a few learned Quenya. In the latter years,
>>> most rejected things and languages Elven, the Faithful continued to
>>> preserve it AS A MATTER OF LORE, but their birth language was
>>> Adunaic.
>>
>> I don't think that entirely follows from what you quoted.
>> My commentary above should show why I think this.
>
> How does this not follow?

I retract that! It does follow! :-)

Except that Third-Age-Dunedain Sindarin was more lore and a learned
language than Second-Age-Dunedain Sindarin. What language would Elendil
and Gil-galad have spoken in? Would there have been a common tongue for
the Armies of the Last Alliance, or even indeed for the Battles in the
First Age where Men, Elves and Dwarves fought together and communication
would have been very important.

>> Emma then wrote:
>>
>>>> Well for people like Aragorn who was raised in Rivendell, almost
>>>> certainly as a birth tongue.
>>
>> And you replied:
>>
>>> How do you figure? Do not Elendil and his people know Westron? Do
>>> not a number of them speak it fluently?
>>
>> Elendil knew Westron?
>
> Sorry, I meant Elrond.

Of the Third Age Elves we see, many seem to know it fluently. The
exceptions being the border-guard Elves (Haldir, Rumil and Orophin) we
see in Lorien. The impression I get is that the general (Silvan)
populace of Lorien (and probably also Mirkwood - though the interactions
in /The Hobbit/ seem to suggest otherwise) would use Westron
infrequently, while the ruling class (Sindarin Elves) such as Legolas
and Thranduil would be more conversant in Westron, as are, of course,
the rulers of Lorien: Celeborn and Galadriel.

>>> That Aragorn knew and spoke
>>> Sindarin I think a given, that it was his "birth" language simply
>>> because he was born in Rivendell goes against the evidence.
>>
> > And being raised in Rivendell from such an earlier age (possibly
> earlier
>> than normal for a son of the Cheiftains of the Dunedain) may have
>> made things different for Aragorn, and he may have been more fluent
>> in Sindarin?
>
> Being more fluent, particularly as an adult, isn't the point I'm
> contending. The point I'm contending is Emma's claim that Sindarin
> was Aragorn's BIRTH LANGUAGE, and was the birth language of ALL the
> Dunedain
> in the North.

I agree that is unlikely.

>> We do see Glorfindel cry out to Aragorn in Sindarin (the "Mae
>> govannen" bit in 'Flight to the Ford'), but we are not told what
>> language the subsequent conversation was in.
>>
>> There is Elvish singing in the Hall of Fire at Rivendell.
>>
>> In Lothlorien, we see Legolas and Haldir speak in another Elvish
>> tongue, that Frodo does not understand. I wonder if Aragorn would
>> have understood it?
>>
>> We also read about Aragorn murmuring as in a dream to Arwen, at Cerin
>> Amroth: "Arwen vanimelda, namarie". So we can now ask ourselves what
>> language Aragorn spoke to Arwen in? Would they have mixed Sindarin
>> and Westron, or spoken mostly Sindarin?
>
> None of which demonstrate that Aragorn's native, first, "birth"
> language was Sindarin, only that as an adult he was fluent, a point I
> would agree with.

Can we hazard a guess at how fluent Faramir would be? Seeing that Damrod
and Mablung speak at least a recognisable version of Sindarin, and that
the herbmaster knows Quenya words, how would they compare to Aragorn and
to real, actual, live Elves!

I would say that the Elves are obviously the most fluent, it being their
birth tongue. Then Aragorn. Then, a lot less fluent, we have Faramir,
and maybe Bilbo was (at some point in his long life) learned enough in
Sindarin (at least when reading it - a totally different thing to
speaking it) to interact with Elves and tell them what he wanted for
breakfast! Though I guess that as a rule, and out of courtesy, Elves
would speak in the Common Speech around Men and Hobbits (as we see the
Elves mostly doing in LotR - except that weird singing Elf Queen in
Lorien).

Can we speculate as to whether Damrod and Mablung knew more or less
Sindarin than, say Faramir, Denethor and Boromir, and also compare to
Frodo?

And how long does it take Gandalf to learn these pesky languages! :-)

Christopher

--
---
Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard
Re: COTW: Appendix F.1 The Languages and Peoples of the Third Age [message #132203 ] Mi, 14 September 2005 06:47
danhenry  
On Tue, 13 Sep 2005 23:12:44 GMT, "Christopher Kreuzer"
<spamgard [at] blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

>But what about the offspring of parents with different birth tongues? I
>wonder what Earendil's birth tongue was? What about Dior? What about
>Eldarian for that matter. Would Arwen have taught Sindarin to him and
>his sisters?

I expect at least some would have been raised bilingual from birth. I
had a couple of professors who were raising their girl English-Spanish
bilingual (the mother was from Spain). Since Aragorn was already
Sindarin-fluent and Sindarin was a language of the elite in Gondor (and
presumably the new Arnor), I would not be at all surprised if Arwen's
children had two birth tongues.

>Maybe you could give an example of where the phrase "for the most part"
>is used as an intensifier without implying that there is an exception to
>the rule?

While "for the most part" must be a *qualifier* rather than an
*intensifier*, one should note that this appendix is clearly written by
Tolkien-as-translator and therefore from a non-omniscient viewpoint.
Thus a qualifier might well be in order even if an omniscient author
could have omitted it. The Numenoreans were much scattered at their
height and who can say what habits some might have picked up, such as
speaking pig-Quenya (which is just a silly variant of Adunaic) as their
normal speech.

>Of the Third Age Elves we see, many seem to know it fluently. The
>exceptions being the border-guard Elves (Haldir, Rumil and Orophin) we
>see in Lorien. The impression I get is that the general (Silvan)
>populace of Lorien (and probably also Mirkwood - though the interactions
>in /The Hobbit/ seem to suggest otherwise) would use Westron
>infrequently, while the ruling class (Sindarin Elves) such as Legolas
>and Thranduil would be more conversant in Westron, as are, of course,
>the rulers of Lorien: Celeborn and Galadriel.

When you live for centuries, and long tales and song, picking up some
extra languages is probably a pretty common activity.

(Wild speculation warning!) Maybe the translation abilities of the One
Ring *don't* apply just to servants of the Enemy and Bilbo understood
the Elves because of it.

--
R. Dan Henry
danhenry [at] inreach.com
Re: COTW: Appendix F.1 The Languages and Peoples of the Third Age [message #132228 ] Mi, 14 September 2005 20:26
Prai Jei  
Christopher Kreuzer (or somebody else of the same name) wrote thusly in
message <04GVe.108136$G8.86387 [at] text.news.blueyonder.co.uk>:

> [Restoring AFT]
>
> Larry Swain <theswain [at] operamail.com> wrote:
>> Emma Pease wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> Larry quoted this bit, and I wanted to comment on it briefly:
>
>> "The Dunedain alone of all races of Men knew and spoke an Elvish
>> tongue
>
> "alone of all races". Does this apply throughout the time period
> covered, or is Tolkien referring specifically to a point in the Second
> Age? If he is referring to the Third Age as well, then it means that the
> people of Rohan, apart from Theoden, would not speak any Elvish tongue,
> not even the nobility.

I see no particular time reference, merely a statement on the uniqueness of
the achievement. Even if they don't know and speak the Elvish tongue "now",
they did at least do so once, to their eternal credit.

Other, lesser races would have probably scorned the use of that tongue, not
bothering to learn it. Even if occasional scholars did learn the language,
it would not become a working language of the people as a whole.
Implication: with this attitude they would remain forever "lesser".
--
There are very few spiders found on bananas that bite.

Interchange the alphabetic letter groups to reply
Re: COTW: Appendix F.1 The Languages and Peoples of the Third Age [message #132229 ] Mi, 14 September 2005 20:55
Christopher Kreuzer  
R. Dan Henry <danhenry [at] inreach.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 13 Sep 2005 23:12:44 GMT, "Christopher Kreuzer"
> <spamgard [at] blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> But what about the offspring of parents with different birth
>> tongues? I wonder what Earendil's birth tongue was? What about Dior?
>> What about Eldarian for that matter. Would Arwen have taught
>> Sindarin to him and his sisters?
>
> I expect at least some would have been raised bilingual from birth. I
> had a couple of professors who were raising their girl English-Spanish
> bilingual (the mother was from Spain). Since Aragorn was already
> Sindarin-fluent and Sindarin was a language of the elite in Gondor
> (and presumably the new Arnor), I would not be at all surprised if
> Arwen's children had two birth tongues.

Picking up on how far we can go with this idea of Sindarin as a language
for the elite (ie. was it just a ceremonial language, or the main
tongue, though still learned and not birth, of the ruling elite), I just
thought of another example where Aragorn uses Sindarin. At his
coronation (the "Et Earello..." bit). At least I presume that is
Sindarin. And what is more, we are told that those are the words Elendil
spoke when he came up out of the Sea to Middle-earth. Unless that is an
event that has been since codified in legend and written down in
Sindarin, it looks like Elendil spoke Sindarin more often than just as a
ceremonial language.

Christopher

--
---
Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard
Re: COTW: Appendix F.1 The Languages and Peoples of the Third Age [message #132232 ] Mi, 14 September 2005 21:31
JimboCat  
Christopher Kreuzer wrote:
> Larry Swain <theswain [at] operamail.com> wrote:
> > Christopher Kreuzer wrote:
> >> [Restoring AFT]
> >>
> >> Larry Swain <theswain [at] operamail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Emma Pease wrote:
> >>
> >> <snip>
> >> Larry then emphasised the following:
> >>
> >>> BUT THE NATIVE SPEECH OF THE NUMENOREANS
> >>> REMAINED FOR THE MOST PART THEIR ANCESTRAL
> >>> MANNISH TONGUE, THE ADUNAIC
> >>
> >> "for the most part"?
> >>
> >> Does this not imply that some Numenoreans did not have Adunaic as
> >> their birth tongue?
> >
> > It could, I suppose, but do we really think that Tolkien meant it to
> > be read that way rather than just as an intensifier?
>
> Maybe you could give an example of where the phrase "for the most part"
> is used as an intensifier without implying that there is an exception to
> the rule?

Can do!

"The sum of two plus two for the most part equals four."

I think in this example, "for the most part" gives the sentence its
sarcasm, but functionally the phrase is, indeed, an intensifier. And
of course it does not imply that exceptions exist: it is in fact
mocking the idea that exceptions *could* exist.

Ain't English a grand language?

Jim Deutch (JimboCat)
--
"The World Trade Center towers MUST rise again,
at least as tall as before...or terror has triumphed."
-- Louis Epstein
"Barad-d=FBr MUST rise again, at least as tall as
before...or Frodo has triumphed."
-- Flame of the West
"New Orleans MUST be flooded again, at least as deep
as before...or Katrina has triumphed."
-- JimboCat
Re: COTW: Appendix F.1 The Languages and Peoples of the Third Age [message #132235 ] Mi, 14 September 2005 22:13
Christopher Kreuzer  
Christopher Kreuzer <spamgard [at] blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

<snip>

> Those are the words Elendil spoke when he came up out of the Sea to
> Middle-earth. Unless that is an event that has been since codified in
> legend and written down in Sindarin, it looks like Elendil spoke
> Sindarin more often than just as a ceremonial language.

Unless....

<a wet and bedraggled Elendil staggers up the beach>

Glorfindel: Ai na vedui Dunadan! Mae govannen!

Elendil (thinking): [What the hell? Oh, he's speaking that funny Elvish
lingo. Let's see if I can remember how to say: "We got blown here in a
storm and want somewhere to stay for a bit".]

Elendil (hesitantly): Et Earello Endo... Endorenna utulien.... Sino...
Sinome maruvan ar Hildy... Hildinyar tennen... tenn' Ambar-metta!

Glorfindel (thinking): [Huh? What's he saying? "Out of the Great Sea to
Middle-earth he is come. In this place will he abide, and his heirs,
unto the ending of the world."? Oh, by Eru, was this what I came back to
Middle-earth for? Upstart Men wanting to usurp the Elder Kindred? Hmph!]

Glorfindel (smirking): Oh. I guess you'll be needing somewhere to stay
then? I've heard there's some land going cheap down by Mordor...

[NB. This exchange was scribbled on the back of a scrap of paper found
in the 'fair copy' manuscript of the Akallabeth. At the end was the
note: "No. This is not working. Have Glorfindel return later, in the
Third Age, with Gandalf."]

Christopher

--
---
Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard
Re: COTW: Appendix F.1 The Languages and Peoples of the Third Age [message #132243 ] Mi, 14 September 2005 22:41
danhenry  
On Wed, 14 Sep 2005 18:55:01 GMT, "Christopher Kreuzer"
<spamgard [at] blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

>Picking up on how far we can go with this idea of Sindarin as a language
>for the elite (ie. was it just a ceremonial language, or the main
>tongue, though still learned and not birth, of the ruling elite), I just
>thought of another example where Aragorn uses Sindarin. At his
>coronation (the "Et Earello..." bit). At least I presume that is
>Sindarin. And what is more, we are told that those are the words Elendil
>spoke when he came up out of the Sea to Middle-earth. Unless that is an
>event that has been since codified in legend and written down in
>Sindarin, it looks like Elendil spoke Sindarin more often than just as a
>ceremonial language.

I think that was rather a ceremonial occasion. And speaking Elvish at
that moment would have been a highly symbolic act by one of the
Faithful. It is obvious that Sindarin is not yet terribly obscure to the
Dunedain of Gondor, but Westron seems to be by far the predominant
tongue. But even those with only a smattering of Sindarin would likely
know the familiar quotations like Elendil's arrival statement. Elendil
himself, being a paragon of Men, would have been fluent and eloquent in
Sindarin, Adunaic, and any other tongue he had cause to learn.

--
R. Dan Henry
danhenry [at] inreach.com
Re: COTW: Appendix F.1 The Languages and Peoples of the Third Age [message #132247 ] Mi, 14 September 2005 22:56
Raven  
"JimboCat" <103134.3516 [at] compuserve.com> skrev i en meddelelse
news:1126726261.478036.129950 [at] g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

> Christopher Kreuzer wrote:

> > Maybe you could give an example of where the phrase "for the most part"
> > is used as an intensifier without implying that there is an exception to
> > the rule?

> Can do!

> "The sum of two plus two for the most part equals four."

> I think in this example, "for the most part" gives the sentence its
> sarcasm, but functionally the phrase is, indeed, an intensifier. And
> of course it does not imply that exceptions exist: it is in fact
> mocking the idea that exceptions *could* exist.

I know real mathematical examples where two plus two equals something
else than four. <digging in memory> In Z/3Z two plus two equals one. In
Z/4Z two plus two equals zero.
Someone once declared that not even God could make a triangle with sum
of angles anything else than 180 degrees. Then someone went and discovered
geometry on curved surfaces. And anyway M. C. Escher made them all the
time.

Korax.
Re: COTW: Appendix F.1 The Languages and Peoples of the Third Age [message #132253 ] Do, 15 September 2005 03:34
Emma Pease  
In article <9m_Ve.108697$G8.17238 [at] text.news.blueyonder.co.uk>,
Christopher Kreuzer wrote:
> R. Dan Henry <danhenry [at] inreach.com> wrote:
>> On Tue, 13 Sep 2005 23:12:44 GMT, "Christopher Kreuzer"
>> <spamgard [at] blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> But what about the offspring of parents with different birth
>>> tongues? I wonder what Earendil's birth tongue was? What about Dior?
>>> What about Eldarian for that matter. Would Arwen have taught
>>> Sindarin to him and his sisters?
>>
>> I expect at least some would have been raised bilingual from birth. I
>> had a couple of professors who were raising their girl English-Spanish
>> bilingual (the mother was from Spain). Since Aragorn was already
>> Sindarin-fluent and Sindarin was a language of the elite in Gondor
>> (and presumably the new Arnor), I would not be at all surprised if
>> Arwen's children had two birth tongues.
>
> Picking up on how far we can go with this idea of Sindarin as a language
> for the elite (ie. was it just a ceremonial language, or the main
> tongue, though still learned and not birth, of the ruling elite), I just
> thought of another example where Aragorn uses Sindarin. At his
> coronation (the "Et Earello..." bit). At least I presume that is
> Sindarin. And what is more, we are told that those are the words Elendil
> spoke when he came up out of the Sea to Middle-earth. Unless that is an
> event that has been since codified in legend and written down in
> Sindarin, it looks like Elendil spoke Sindarin more often than just as a
> ceremonial language.

Sindarin was also used at the Field of Cormallen (sp?) though as a
formal occasion it might have been expected.

Elendil's words were almost certainly ceremonial (his actual first
words were, "stop rowing" just as the ship's boat taking him ashore
beached).



--
\----
|\* | Emma Pease Net Spinster
|_\/ Die Luft der Freiheit weht
Re: COTW: Appendix F.1 The Languages and Peoples of the Third Age [message #132254 ] Do, 15 September 2005 05:02
Count Menelvagor  
Christopher Kreuzer wrote:
> Christopher Kreuzer <spamgard [at] blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> > Those are the words Elendil spoke when he came up out of the Sea to
> > Middle-earth. Unless that is an event that has been since codified in
> > legend and written down in Sindarin, it looks like Elendil spoke
> > Sindarin more often than just as a ceremonial language.

that's quenya.:-) and i'd call that a very ceemonial occasion;
equivalent to planting a flag or cross or whatever.

> Glorfindel (smirking): Oh. I guess you'll be needing somewhere to stay
> then? I've heard there's some land going cheap down by Mordor...

lollo
Re: COTW: Appendix F.1 The Languages and Peoples of the Third Age [message #134816 ] Do, 15 September 2005 12:44
Troels Forchhammer  
In message
<news:1126753356.019775.137690 [at] g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> "Count
Menelvagor" <Menelvagor [at] mailandnews.com> enriched us with:
>
> Christopher Kreuzer wrote:
>> Christopher Kreuzer <spamgard [at] blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>> Those are the words Elendil spoke when he came up out of the
>>> Sea to Middle-earth. Unless that is an event that has been
>>> since codified in legend and written down in Sindarin, it looks
>>> like Elendil spoke Sindarin more often than just as a
>>> ceremonial language.
>
> that's quenya.:-) and i'd call that a very ceemonial occasion;
> equivalent to planting a flag or cross or whatever.

I was about to post the exact same complaints, but now I guess I have
to add something like, 'Cerimonial? Bah! It was not like the man had
any choice, was it? Just because the man was a pompous git who had to
start "monologging" when all he wanted to say was "Gee! I'm glad we
survived!"' ;-)

>> Glorfindel (smirking): Oh. I guess you'll be needing somewhere to
>> stay then? I've heard there's some land going cheap down by
>> Mordor...
>
> lollo

LOL! Indeed ;-)

--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail is <t.forch(a)email.dk>

Men, said the Devil,
are good to their brothers:
they don't want to mend
their own ways, but each other's.
- Piet Hein, /Mankind/
Re: COTW: Appendix F.1 The Languages and Peoples of the Third Age [message #134819 ] Do, 15 September 2005 08:40
Derek Broughton  
Christopher Kreuzer wrote:

> Christopher Kreuzer <spamgard [at] blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>> Those are the words Elendil spoke when he came up out of the Sea to
>> Middle-earth. Unless that is an event that has been since codified in
>> legend and written down in Sindarin, it looks like Elendil spoke
>> Sindarin more often than just as a ceremonial language.
>
> Unless....
>
> <a wet and bedraggled Elendil staggers up the beach>
>
> Glorfindel: Ai na vedui Dunadan! Mae govannen!
>
> Elendil (thinking): [What the hell? Oh, he's speaking that funny Elvish
> lingo. Let's see if I can remember how to say: "We got blown here in a
> storm and want somewhere to stay for a bit".

LOL.

That's one possibility. The other is just that it was a ceremonial
occasion. True, it wasn't as if they'd just gone on a voyage of
exploration to find this land, but perhaps Elendil explicitly wanted to
give his followers a sense of a beginning, rather than an ending.

I find the argument that people in the streets of Gondor seemed to use
Sindarin to refer to Pippin much more compelling than this one.
--
derek
Re: COTW: Appendix F.1 The Languages and Peoples of the Third Age [message #134822 ] Do, 15 September 2005 15:29
Ostadan  
In article <9m_Ve.108697$G8.17238 [at] text.news.blueyonder.co.uk>,
Christopher Kreuzer <spamgard [at] blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>
>Picking up on how far we can go with this idea of Sindarin as a language
>for the elite (ie. was it just a ceremonial language, or the main
>tongue, though still learned and not birth, of the ruling elite), I just
>thought of another example where Aragorn uses Sindarin. At his
>coronation (the "Et Earello..." bit). At least I presume that is
>Sindarin.

Quenya, actually.
Re: COTW: Appendix F.1 The Languages and Peoples of the Third Age [message #134837 ] Do, 15 September 2005 22:49
Christopher Kreuzer  
<Ostadan [at] theonering.net> wrote:
> Christopher Kreuzer <spamgard [at] blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >At his coronation (the "Et Earello..." bit). At least I presume that
is
> >Sindarin.
>
> Quenya, actually.

As quite a few people have pointed out.

I need to brush up on my Elvish. :-(

I wonder if there is there an _easy_ way to tell Quenya and Sindarin
apart. Either by looking at the words, or by remembering who spoke what?
I would have thought those who spoke Quenya could all speak Sindarin,
but in any Sindarin-speaking population, only a few would be able to
speak Quenya?

Christopher

--
---
Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard
Re: COTW: Appendix F.1 The Languages and Peoples of the Third Age [message #134865 ] Fr, 16 September 2005 09:40
Dirk Thierbach  
Christopher Kreuzer <spamgard [at] blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
> I wonder if there is there an _easy_ way to tell Quenya and Sindarin
> apart.

The phonetics are quite different. If you've seen the movie, remember
the part where Saruman speaks in Quenya when the fellowship is at
Caradhras? It's not quite loud enough, but if you listen closely, it
sounds very different from all the Sindarin they are speaking in other
places.

I cannot describe the difference very well in words, but Quenya is very
"vocalic", and the case endings ("-enna", "-ello", etc.) are quite
distinctive. Sindarin is somewhat "darker", and more "celtic".

So reading it out loud may help :-)

- Dirk
Re: COTW: Appendix F.1 The Languages and Peoples of the Third Age [message #134871 ] Fr, 16 September 2005 16:25
Me  
In rec.arts.books.tolkien Christopher Kreuzer <spamgard [at] blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
> I wonder if there is there an _easy_ way to tell Quenya and Sindarin
> apart. Either by looking at the words, or by remembering who spoke what?

Quenya tends to have more words ending in vowels. I think
also that Sindarin has certain fricatives like dh, ch, th, etc.
that Quenya does not have. Compare the Quenya of Galadriel's
lament:

Ai! Laurie lantar lassi surinen,
Yeni unotime ve ramar aldaron.
Yeni ve linte yuldar avanier,
Mi oromardi lisse miruvoreva
Andune pella, Vardo tellumar nu luini
Yassen tintilar i eleni omaryo airetari-lirinen.

with the Sindarin of the Elbereth song:
A Elbereth Gilthoniel,
Silivren penna miriel,
O menel aglar elenath;
Na-chaered palan-diriel
O galadhremmin ennorath
Fanuilos, le linnathon
Nef aear, si nef aearon!

--Jamie. (Celebrating (?) 20 years on Usenet!)
andrews .uwo } Merge these two lines to obtain my e-mail address.
[at] csd .ca } (Unsolicited "bulk" e-mail costs everyone.)
Re: COTW: Appendix F.1 The Languages and Peoples of the Third Age [message #134889 ] Sa, 17 September 2005 12:48
Yuk Tang  
me [at] privacy.net (Jamie Andrews; real address [at] bottom of message)
wrote in news:3p02u2F81ormU1 [at] individual.net:
> In rec.arts.books.tolkien Christopher Kreuzer
> <spamgard [at] blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>> I wonder if there is there an _easy_ way to tell Quenya and
>> Sindarin apart. Either by looking at the words, or by remembering
>> who spoke what?
>
> Quenya tends to have more words ending in vowels. I think
> also that Sindarin has certain fricatives like dh, ch, th, etc.
> that Quenya does not have. Compare the Quenya of Galadriel's
> lament:
>
> Ai! Laurie lantar lassi surinen,
> Yeni unotime ve ramar aldaron.
> Yeni ve linte yuldar avanier,
> Mi oromardi lisse miruvoreva
> Andune pella, Vardo tellumar nu luini
> Yassen tintilar i eleni omaryo airetari-lirinen.
>
> with the Sindarin of the Elbereth song:
> A Elbereth Gilthoniel,
> Silivren penna miriel,
> O menel aglar elenath;
> Na-chaered palan-diriel
> O galadhremmin ennorath
> Fanuilos, le linnathon
> Nef aear, si nef aearon!

If you know any Chinese, Quenya can be compared to the more flowing
Mandarin, while Sindarin is more like the harder-sounding Cantonese.


--
Cheers, ymt.
Re: COTW: Appendix F.1 The Languages and Peoples of the Third Age [message #134943 ] Mo, 19 September 2005 02:10
Christopher Kreuzer  
Yuk Tang <jim.laker2 [at] yahoo.com> wrote:

<snip>

> If you know any Chinese, Quenya can be compared to the more flowing
> Mandarin, while Sindarin is more like the harder-sounding Cantonese.

Thanks for the tip. Surely I'd be better of, though, listening to people
speaking Finnish and Welsh. Does anyone think that would help?
Re: COTW: Appendix F.1 The Languages and Peoples of the Third Age [message #134944 ] Mo, 19 September 2005 02:13
Christopher Kreuzer  
Jamie Andrews; real address [at] bottom of message <me [at] privacy.net> wrote:
> In rec.arts.books.tolkien Christopher Kreuzer
> <spamgard [at] blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>> I wonder if there is there an _easy_ way to tell Quenya and Sindarin
>> apart. Either by looking at the words, or by remembering who spoke
>> what?
>
> Quenya tends to have more words ending in vowels. I think
> also that Sindarin has certain fricatives like dh, ch, th, etc.
> that Quenya does not have. Compare the Quenya of Galadriel's
> lament:

Thanks for this, and thanks to the helpful comments from others as well.
These two examples have shown clearly how I should have realised that
Aragorn's coronation chant was Quenya.

> Ai! Laurie lantar lassi surinen,

<snip>

> with the Sindarin of the Elbereth song:
> A Elbereth Gilthoniel,

<snip>

But I'm still not sure how to distinguish them if you only have one or
two words, like in a place name. Does that make it a bit more difficult?

Christopher

--
---
Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard
Re: COTW: Appendix F.1 The Languages and Peoples of the Third Age [message #134949 ] Mo, 19 September 2005 06:10
Odysseus  
Christopher Kreuzer wrote:
>
> Jamie Andrews; real address [at] bottom of message <me [at] privacy.net> wrote:

<snip>

> These two examples have shown clearly how I should have realised that
> Aragorn's coronation chant was Quenya.
>
> > Ai! Laurie lantar lassi surinen,
>
> <snip>
>
> > with the Sindarin of the Elbereth song:
> > A Elbereth Gilthoniel,
>
> <snip>
>
> But I'm still not sure how to distinguish them if you only have one or
> two words, like in a place name. Does that make it a bit more difficult?

Yes, but there will sometimes be diagnostic clues in the spelling or
implied phonetics. For example I'm pretty sure you won't find "qu"
(kw), "ngw", "hy", consonantal "y", or a diaeresis (as in _laurië_)
in transliterated Sindarin. Jamie's tips would still work, where
applicable -- although IIRC "th" is only rare in Quenya, or archaic
(whether 'story-internally' or in terms of Tolkien's development of
the languages), rather than quite non-existent.

You might find the Ardalambion website helpful in identifying some
other characteristic features; compare

<http://www.uib.no/People/hnohf/quenya.htm#Heading6>

with

<http://www.uib.no/People/hnohf/sindarin.htm#Heading6>.

--
Odysseus
Re: COTW: Appendix F.1 The Languages and Peoples of the Third Age [message #134955 ] Mo, 19 September 2005 08:48
Dirk Thierbach  
Christopher Kreuzer <spamgard [at] blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
> But I'm still not sure how to distinguish them if you only have one or
> two words, like in a place name. Does that make it a bit more difficult?

Same principle. If you cannot work it out from phonetics, try to look
up the meaning, or see if you can identify parts of it. (Anything with
"barad" in it must be Sindarin, for example.)

- Dirk
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