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Fantasy » alt.fan.tolkien » Powers of the Three and the One - for Stan the Man
| Powers of the Three and the One - for Stan the Man [message #132134] |
Di, 13 September 2005 09:17 |
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In one of his Letters Tolkien confirms that the One "contained" the
powers of the ohter Rings, yet in another text, possibly UT ICNR right
now, Tolkine tells us that Sauron coveted the three "for those who had
them in their keeping could ward off the decays of time and postpone the
weariness of the world."
Does this not imply an inconsistency in the conception of their powers?
Why would he need the Three if he had the One, or did this occur
separately, i.e. he coveted them BEFORE he made the One?
And if anyone can lay their hands on the relevant quotations and quote
them exactly, I'd be very grateful.
M.
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| Re: Powers of the Three and the One - for Stan the Man [message #132136 ] |
Di, 13 September 2005 10:13 |
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Michael O'Neill wrote:
> In one of his Letters Tolkien confirms that the One "contained" the
> powers of the ohter Rings, yet in another text, possibly UT ICNR right
> now, Tolkine tells us that Sauron coveted the three "for those who had
> them in their keeping could ward off the decays of time and postpone the
> weariness of the world."
>
> Does this not imply an inconsistency in the conception of their powers?
> Why would he need the Three if he had the One, or did this occur
> separately, i.e. he coveted them BEFORE he made the One?
>
> And if anyone can lay their hands on the relevant quotations and quote
> them exactly, I'd be very grateful.
Letters 144 (To Naomi Mitchison)
.... for the Three Rings were precisely endowed with the power of
preservation, not of birth. Though unsullied, because they were not made by
Sauron nor touched by him, they were nonetheless partly products of his
instruction, and ultimately under the control of the One.
Sil, 'Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age'
Now these were the Three that had last been made, and they possessed the
greatest powers. Narya, Nenya, and Vilya, they were named, the Rings of
Fire, and of Water, and of Air, set with ruby and adamant and sapphire; and
of all the Elven-rings Sauron most desired to possess them, for those who
had them in their keeping could ward off the decays of time and postpone
the weariness of the world.
I don't see an inconsitency, he didn't want his enemies to possess such
powerful tools, whether he had their specific powers or not.
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| Re: Powers of the Three and the One - for Stan the Man [message #132142 ] |
Di, 13 September 2005 12:26 |
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Michael O'Neill <onq [at] bwahahaha.indigo.ie> wrote in
news:43267D13.A7F7DDAA [at] bwahahaha.indigo.ie:
>
> In one of his Letters Tolkien confirms that the One "contained"
> the powers of the ohter Rings, yet in another text, possibly UT
> ICNR right now, Tolkine tells us that Sauron coveted the three
> "for those who had them in their keeping could ward off the decays
> of time and postpone the weariness of the world."
>
> Does this not imply an inconsistency in the conception of their
> powers? Why would he need the Three if he had the One, or did this
> occur separately, i.e. he coveted them BEFORE he made the One?
Because the One could do what the Three could, but the Three were
ideally suited for the above uses?
--
Cheers, ymt.
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| Re: Powers of the Three and the One - for Stan the Man [message #132152 ] |
Di, 13 September 2005 16:00 |
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Yuk Tang wrote:
>
> Michael O'Neill <onq [at] bwahahaha.indigo.ie> wrote in
> news:43267D13.A7F7DDAA [at] bwahahaha.indigo.ie:
> >
> > In one of his Letters Tolkien confirms that the One "contained"
> > the powers of the ohter Rings, yet in another text, possibly UT
> > ICNR right now, Tolkine tells us that Sauron coveted the three
> > "for those who had them in their keeping could ward off the decays
> > of time and postpone the weariness of the world."
> >
> > Does this not imply an inconsistency in the conception of their
> > powers? Why would he need the Three if he had the One, or did this
> > occur separately, i.e. he coveted them BEFORE he made the One?
>
> Because the One could do what the Three could, but the Three were
> ideally suited for the above uses?
>
> --
> Cheers, ymt.
Now I have to take the hat off to you, because splitting hairs used ot be
MY forté!
LOL!
My point was that with the one already supposedly doing what the Three
could do, why would he covet the Three in those terms?
The implication I see is that the One couldn't ward off the decays of
time and postpone the weariness of the world as the Three could.
The deeper implication is that Sauron, within the confines of Arda, was
beginning to feel the effects of Time himself.
Rank speculation posits that after so much of his native power passed to
the One, this burden of holding off further decay had become central to
his strategies as it had the Elves, but for different reasons.
Sauron had set himself up as a God, and so he was, even in terms most
humans could understand, being able to survive the death of his incarnate
body and build a physical presence for himself afterward.
Yet one of Tolkien's earliest works, there was a comment about the Gift
of Death to Man, "that as time wears even the powers shall envy."
Limitations because of time passing affect all of Tolkien's creation,
from the Gods and Elves to Dwarves and Men. It was a central theme in
Tolkien's prehistory an echo of the Fall of Man and except for Aragorn
the Renewer all creatures fade with time.
Yavanna was unable to recreate the Two Trees after Morgoth poisoned them.
Feanor was unable to duplicate the Silmarils. The more of his substance
Morgoth expended to try to control the stuff of Arda, the less he could
achieve personally. The Dwarves could never re-take, never mind
repopulate Moria. The Elves, fade, diminish and pass into the West. The
Hobbits become a rustic folk of wood and dell, and so on.
The real reason I didn't agree with the assertion Tolkien made concerning
the one namely that it contained the powers of all the other rings was
the passage I cited at the start of this thread. I couldn't recall it
earlier in the Narya thread.
Rank Speculation follows.
I think the One may have had similar powers to the Three, but was far
less able to preserve things outside its wearer, and the Nine. I think
this was why they were able to confer invisibility.
I think the Three were designed to primarily designed affect the area
around them as opposed to the person wielding them and the travellers
sense the effect of the Ring of Adamant when they walk through Lorien for
the first time.
I think the Seven had a similar "outward" power over precious materials
only, and effected the wearer less than the Nine.
FWIW
M.
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| Re: Powers of the Three and the One - for Stan the Man [message #132155 ] |
Di, 13 September 2005 18:07 |
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Michael O'Neill wrote:
> My point was that with the one already supposedly doing what the Three
> could do, why would he covet the Three in those terms?
Since the quote is from Silmarillion, can we be sure that
Tolkien even wrote it in those terms?
Morgil
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| Re: Powers of the Three and the One - for Stan the Man [message #132156 ] |
Di, 13 September 2005 18:10 |
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Michael O'Neill <onq [at] bwahahaha.indigo.ie> wrote in
news:4326DB6F.9535EF96 [at] bwahahaha.indigo.ie:
> Yuk Tang wrote:
>> Michael O'Neill <onq [at] bwahahaha.indigo.ie> wrote in
>> news:43267D13.A7F7DDAA [at] bwahahaha.indigo.ie:
>> >
>> > In one of his Letters Tolkien confirms that the One "contained"
>> > the powers of the ohter Rings, yet in another text, possibly UT
>> > ICNR right now, Tolkine tells us that Sauron coveted the three
>> > "for those who had them in their keeping could ward off the
>> > decays of time and postpone the weariness of the world."
>> >
>> > Does this not imply an inconsistency in the conception of their
>> > powers? Why would he need the Three if he had the One, or did
>> > this occur separately, i.e. he coveted them BEFORE he made the
>> > One?
>>
>> Because the One could do what the Three could, but the Three were
>> ideally suited for the above uses?
>
> Now I have to take the hat off to you, because splitting hairs
> used ot be MY forté!
>
> LOL!
>
> My point was that with the one already supposedly doing what the
> Three could do, why would he covet the Three in those terms?
Give a rocket scientist the appropriate tools and he'll be capable of
fixing a leak. Despite that, and the presence of those tools in many
households, people still call the plumber. Why? The plumber
specialises in that task. The rocket scientist can accomplish the
task, but less well, and his time and effort is better spent
elsewhere.
--
Cheers, ymt.
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