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Fantasy » alt.fan.dragons » Dragons in literature and legend
Dragons in literature and legend [message #129906] Sa, 17 September 2005 06:25
Helios  
I like to read...alot. In fact my room is kinda a mini-library. I guess
you could call me a book...bird? XD

Dragons in literature are really cool. One book that has caught my eye
is "Eragon", it's supposed to be great, and a freind is gonna get me a
copy this weekend. Also in my English class at school (9th grade, but
that's beside the point) we read an excerpt from a fantasy book about
Dragons. Dragon stories are under-rated IMO. It's really great to see
legendary creatures in extrodinary (and sometimes embarassing!)
situations. Also the sense of trust between humans and Dragons is in
most cases touching.

Dragons are also used alot in legends, maybe cause of the sense of
power. The most recgonized one I think is the Dragon-eating-sun legend
that explains a Solar Eclipse.

Feel free to commetn or post anything simaler here.
Re: Dragons in literature and legend [message #129907 ] Sa, 17 September 2005 11:58
Golder  
I do agree with the part about dragon and human friendship touching. If
I could advise you one book talking about this, it'd be "Song In The
Silence" written by Elizabeth Kerner. I have a lot of book at home
about dragons, more than 100 I think and I know that a lot of legends
work on dragons being symbol of pride, of strenght, of evil sometimes
and of chance and good omen some other times. Eragon is a good book but
I think the author got too much ideas from Lord Of The Rings. Any
informations, I'm here to talk about it
Re: Dragons in literature and legend [message #129909 ] Sa, 17 September 2005 16:51
Dreamseeker  
Yeah, I enjoyed Eragon too, but it was a bit too cliche and predictable
for me. I don't think I'll read the sequal that just came out, until
at least i finish the stack of books I already have waiting in line to
be read.
A am a complete and total bookwyrm. My hoard is made up of books, and
almost all of them are sci-fi/fantasy novels. I can recomend several
good books involving dragons, for anyone who's interested.
There is, of course, Anne McCaffrey's Dragon Riders of Pern series, The
Enchanted Forest Chronicles by Patricia C. Wrede, The Immortals Quortet
by Tamora Pierce...
Then the books that aren't novels, but are still a lot of fun, such as
Dragonology and some of the books from the Enchanted World series,
which is basically a collection of myths from around the world.

--
Dreamseeker

Bearer of one Ponder Point from Scott L

DC2.D~ Gf L12f15t30w W- T Phfltvw Sks,wh Cau [at] gr- Bzz A- Fr- Na
Mr---Mv- H++ $ F+Fo R+++ Ac+ J++ S++ U- I V+[weather magic] Q+[empathy]
Tc E++
Re: Dragons in literature and legend [message #135666 ] Di, 20 September 2005 10:39
Vespers  
> A am a complete and total bookwyrm. My hoard is made up of books, and
> almost all of them are sci-fi/fantasy novels. I can recomend several
> good books involving dragons, for anyone who's interested.
> There is, of course, Anne McCaffrey's Dragon Riders of Pern series, The
> Enchanted Forest Chronicles by Patricia C. Wrede, The Immortals Quortet
> by Tamora Pierce...

YesYesYes!!! The Enchanted Forest Chronicles, children's stories they
may be, but DAMN are they awesome books. i just re-read them a couple
weeks ago. I was in fact wondering why I don't own them... as I am also
a complete bookworm. I have 4 bookshelves in my bedroom, and I've still
got books in piles on the floor cause of lack of room.... and most of
that is Fantasy, Hard SF and Space Opera-style stuff.
> Then the books that aren't novels, but are still a lot of fun, such as
> Dragonology and some of the books from the Enchanted World series,
> which is basically a collection of myths from around the world.

[WARNING: D&D Geekery ahead!]: for books that aren't novels, i think the
best, far surpassing that slightly cheesy Dragonology book, is the
Draconimcon, published by Wizards of the Coast, if you can get over the
bit about it being a D&D rulebook (or like that part, like me). Even
without all the stats for gaming, that has some awesome stuff about the
D&D dragons that fits well with my perception of the "typical" Great
Wyrm style of dragon. Wonderful stuff, prettypretty pictures too.
[/D&D Geekery]
yeah, i love stuff like that. I think someone's posted stuff already
about some of the websites where they show ideas about how dragons could
have existed. My pet peeve about Dragon (and gryphon and pegasus and
whatnot) illustrations is that the wings are never big enough. the extra
wingspan to carry hind legs and a tail... well. those dragons must be
happy for magic-assited flight, I say, no matter how hollow thier damn
bones are.

--
DC2.D Gm L9m15w W- T Phkvfwlt Sks Cbk\re--- Bpl A- Nn M/ H--- $ Fo- R*
Ac+++ J S+ U* I+++! V+ Tc++ E---!#

Caesarion Vesperae
Re: Dragons in literature and legend [message #135671 ] Di, 20 September 2005 20:58
Draco18s  
In article <1126951107.163646.156570 [at] o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>,
Londers [at] gmail.com says...
> Eragon is a good book but
> I think the author got too much ideas from Lord Of The Rings. Any
> informations, I'm here to talk about it

The first book was heavily Tolkein influenced, yes, but do remember Paolini
wrote it at 15 while still in highshool. The noticable influence drops off
in the second book.

--
Draco18s
DC2.Dw Gm L- W- T Phvwalt Sks Cag^ Bco|# A- Fr Nu M--- O H+ $ Fo R+++ Ac+ J+
S+ I-# V++ Q++ Tc+++[C++]/Tc--- E+

"Yum!" |> v-v-v-v |>
| , , .|. | n | .|.
'. |_/| | |'''''''''''| | \
(q p),-| | HERSHEY'S | |'-._ ))
/_(/ | | CHO|"|LIT | | ) '-.___//
---W"W----'-'----'-'----'-'----------'--------------
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Re: Dragons in literature and legend [message #135672 ] Di, 20 September 2005 20:58
Draco18s  
In article <1126968707.150257.174660 [at] z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>,
LadyAmberEvylyn [at] hotmail.com says...
> Yeah, I enjoyed Eragon too, but it was a bit too cliche and predictable
> for me. I don't think I'll read the sequal that just came out, until
> at least i finish the stack of books I already have waiting in line to
> be read.
> A am a complete and total bookwyrm. My hoard is made up of books, and
> almost all of them are sci-fi/fantasy novels.

*Laughs* Same here! I've got quite a library going.

> I can recomend several
> good books involving dragons, for anyone who's interested.
> There is, of course, Anne McCaffrey's Dragon Riders of Pern series, The
> Enchanted Forest Chronicles by Patricia C. Wrede, The Immortals Quortet
> by Tamora Pierce...

Yup! Lots of good books out there!
I've recently acquired a copy of the Dragoncharm series (by Graham Edwards)
sent all the way from Australia!

--
Draco18s
DC2.Dw Gm L- W- T Phvwalt Sks Cag^ Bco|# A- Fr Nu M--- O H+ $ Fo R+++ Ac+ J+
S+ I-# V++ Q++ Tc+++[C++]/Tc--- E+

"Yum!" |> v-v-v-v |>
| , , .|. | n | .|.
'. |_/| | |'''''''''''| | \
(q p),-| | HERSHEY'S | |'-._ ))
/_(/ | | CHO|"|LIT | | ) '-.___//
---W"W----'-'----'-'----'-'----------'--------------
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Re: Dragons in literature and legend [message #135674 ] Mi, 21 September 2005 00:09
Marrock  
Draco18s wrote:
> In article <1126968707.150257.174660 [at] z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>,
> LadyAmberEvylyn [at] hotmail.com says...
>
>>Yeah, I enjoyed Eragon too, but it was a bit too cliche and predictable
>>for me. I don't think I'll read the sequal that just came out, until
>>at least i finish the stack of books I already have waiting in line to
>>be read.
>>A am a complete and total bookwyrm. My hoard is made up of books, and
>>almost all of them are sci-fi/fantasy novels.
>
>
> *Laughs* Same here! I've got quite a library going.
>
>
>>I can recomend several
>>good books involving dragons, for anyone who's interested.
>>There is, of course, Anne McCaffrey's Dragon Riders of Pern series, The
>>Enchanted Forest Chronicles by Patricia C. Wrede, The Immortals Quortet
>>by Tamora Pierce...
>
>
> Yup! Lots of good books out there!
> I've recently acquired a copy of the Dragoncharm series (by Graham Edwards)
> sent all the way from Australia!
>

I'm trying to track down that series in hardcover, I already have the
paperback editions.

--
Good journeys,
Marrock Volsung

Bearer of one Ponder Point

"Fly with me," said the dragon, "live in the depths of the waters and
soar through the sky.
We are not toys for mortals, but spirits that ride the winds and blow
the clouds along." --Lu Kuei Meng

DC2.Dw Gm L42f W T25,000l Phvwalt Sks,wl
Cbk\gr-^,fgr--,ebk%,vgr--^>bk^,sgr-^,bgr--^&1bk^,wbk [at] gr-,cag^ Bac A++ Nm
O H $+ R+++! Ac+++ J S+++! U I++ V-- Q+++! Tc+ E---!#
Re: Dragons in literature and legend [message #135681 ] Mi, 21 September 2005 08:12
Draco18s  
In article <KM%Xe.52$dl2.34 [at] fe08.lga>, MarrockVolsung [at] optonline.net says...
> Draco18s wrote:
> > In article <1126968707.150257.174660 [at] z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>,
> > LadyAmberEvylyn [at] hotmail.com says...
> >
> >>Yeah, I enjoyed Eragon too, but it was a bit too cliche and predictable
> >>for me. I don't think I'll read the sequal that just came out, until
> >>at least i finish the stack of books I already have waiting in line to
> >>be read.
> >>A am a complete and total bookwyrm. My hoard is made up of books, and
> >>almost all of them are sci-fi/fantasy novels.
> >
> >
> > *Laughs* Same here! I've got quite a library going.
> >
> >
> >>I can recomend several
> >>good books involving dragons, for anyone who's interested.
> >>There is, of course, Anne McCaffrey's Dragon Riders of Pern series, The
> >>Enchanted Forest Chronicles by Patricia C. Wrede, The Immortals Quortet
> >>by Tamora Pierce...
> >
> >
> > Yup! Lots of good books out there!
> > I've recently acquired a copy of the Dragoncharm series (by Graham Edwards)
> > sent all the way from Australia!
> >
>
> I'm trying to track down that series in hardcover, I already have the
> paperback editions.

These are paperbacks. I don't think I even want to know what a hardcover
would cost. I spent ~US$16 on them (inc. shipping).

--
Draco18s
DC2.Dw Gm L- W- T Phvwalt Sks Cag^ Bco|# A- Fr Nu M--- O H+ $ Fo R+++ Ac+ J+
S+ I-# V++ Q++ Tc+++[C++]/Tc--- E+

"Yum!" |> v-v-v-v |>
| , , .|. | n | .|.
'. |_/| | |'''''''''''| | \
(q p),-| | HERSHEY'S | |'-._ ))
/_(/ | | CHO|"|LIT | | ) '-.___//
---W"W----'-'----'-'----'-'----------'--------------
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dragons in games (was Re: Dragons in literature and legend) [message #135682 ] Mi, 21 September 2005 09:08
Lord Flame Stryke  
On 20 Sep 2005, Vespers was found to have scratched
news:432FCAD8.80600 [at] gmail.com on a rock in alt.fan.dragons:

>> Then the books that aren't novels, but are still a lot of fun, such
>> as Dragonology and some of the books from the Enchanted World series,
>> which is basically a collection of myths from around the world.
> [WARNING: D&D Geekery ahead!]: for books that aren't novels, i think
> the best, far surpassing that slightly cheesy Dragonology book, is the
> Draconimcon, published by Wizards of the Coast, if you can get over
> the bit about it being a D&D rulebook (or like that part, like me).
> Even without all the stats for gaming, that has some awesome stuff
> about the D&D dragons that fits well with my perception of the
> "typical" Great Wyrm style of dragon. Wonderful stuff, prettypretty
> pictures too. [/D&D Geekery]

Actually, I much prefer Arcana Evolved. d20, just like D&D, but the
dragons have been gone for a long time, and coming back they have lost
all their stereotypes of alignment (in fact, there is no alignment in
AE) and breath weapons based on colour.



Lord Flame Stryke

--
DC2.D~ Gm L120f60t180w W T Phawlt Sks Cbk,ere' Bfl A+++! Fr++ Nm M+ O H+
$ Fc~ R+++! Ac+++ J+ S++ U! I# V+++! Q Tc++ E++ Draco nigrum, oculi
rubere, suppositus, magus. http://www.geocities.com/flame_stryke/ |
http://www.geocities.com/flame_stryke/AFDList.html Holder of the Scroll
of Nobility from Lady Viriatha, Keeper of the Wand of Sparklies in its
case from Hex, Wielder of the Lady Viri Signature 4x8 from Ysable, Eater
of the Mint Cheesecake from Whisper, Mate to Lady Viriatha, Owner of
Flame Stryke's Windex® Factory, Lord Balloonmaker, Borrower of the Ebony
Wood Fife from Luxatos, Accepter of the Small Statue of a Green Dragon
Covered in Ice Cream Toppings from Juniper, Employer of a miniature
Jester doll from SeaKing, Bearer of the Magic Ever-Bill from SeaKing,
Carrier of the gold piece from whisper: o, Builder of Dragon Fyre Keep,
First Dragon of Realism, Giver of the Pickaxe of Icebreaking to Kalos

--
"I'd love to go out with you, but I'm doing door-to-door collecting for
static cling." -- Herd Thinners
Re: Dragons in literature and legend [message #135683 ] Mi, 21 September 2005 13:33
Dreamseeker  
That's nice to know. I guess I will read it eventually.
I was quite impressed when I read how young he was, especially since
I've been working on my own novels since was 14.

--
Dreamseeker

Bearer of one Ponder Point from Scott L

DC2.D~ Gf L12f15t30w W- T Phfltvw Sks,wh Cau [at] gr- Bzz A- Fr- Na
Mr---Mv- H++ $ F+Fo R+++ Ac+ J++ S++ U- I V+[weather magic] Q+[empathy]
Tc E++
Re: Dragons in games (was Re: Dragons in literature and legend) [message #135694 ] Do, 22 September 2005 11:03
Vespers  
>>[WARNING: D&D Geekery ahead!]: for books that aren't novels, i think
>>the best, far surpassing that slightly cheesy Dragonology book, is the
>>Draconimcon, published by Wizards of the Coast, if you can get over
>>the bit about it being a D&D rulebook (or like that part, like me).
>>Even without all the stats for gaming, that has some awesome stuff
>>about the D&D dragons that fits well with my perception of the
>>"typical" Great Wyrm style of dragon. Wonderful stuff, prettypretty
>>pictures too. [/D&D Geekery]
>
>
> Actually, I much prefer Arcana Evolved. d20, just like D&D, but the
> dragons have been gone for a long time, and coming back they have lost
> all their stereotypes of alignment (in fact, there is no alignment in
> AE) and breath weapons based on colour.
>
Actually, one reason I like the D&D stuff is because the intricacies of
the alignments give heaps of variation to the dragons. Of course, in the
Draconomicon, as it is a 300-page book devoted to dragons, there are a
whole heap of non-aligned dragons as well. But what I was really saying
was that the book is quite good for a mainly *cough* "realistic" view of
the dragons, with regard to lifestyle, habits, living places, and so on.
Oh, and pretty pictures.

--
DC2.D Gm L9m15w W- T Phkvfwlt Sks Cbk\re--- Bpl A- Nn M/ H--- $ Fo- R*
Ac+++ J S+ U* I+++! V+ Tc++ E---!#

Caesarion Vesperae
Re: Dragons in games (was Re: Dragons in literature and legend) [message #135699 ] Fr, 23 September 2005 08:59
Lord Flame Stryke  
On 22 Sep 2005, Vespers was found to have scratched
news:43327376.5010806 [at] gmail.com on a rock in alt.fan.dragons:

>> Actually, I much prefer Arcana Evolved. d20, just like D&D, but the
>> dragons have been gone for a long time, and coming back they have
>> lost all their stereotypes of alignment (in fact, there is no
>> alignment in AE) and breath weapons based on colour.
> Actually, one reason I like the D&D stuff is because the intricacies
> of the alignments give heaps of variation to the dragons. Of course,
> in the Draconomicon, as it is a 300-page book devoted to dragons,
> there are a whole heap of non-aligned dragons as well. But what I was
> really saying was that the book is quite good for a mainly *cough*
> "realistic" view of the dragons, with regard to lifestyle, habits,
> living places, and so on. Oh, and pretty pictures.

Yes, pretty pictures. I bought the D&D Dragon Species poster.
Unfortunately, it's just the 10 from the main Monster Manual, but it's
still nice to look at.

As for the info, some of it is nice to have, but I don't agree with a lot
of it. For example, I'm a black dragon and I neither spit acid nor live
in swamps, and while I could probably manage to use magic to enable
myself to breathe underwater, I can't do it naturally.

But then, I'm sure everyone compares themselves with dragons in games and
books and finds similarities and differences.....



Lord Flame Stryke

--
DC2.D~ Gm L120f60t180w W T Phawlt Sks Cbk,ere' Bfl A+++! Fr++ Nm M+ O H+
$ Fc~ R+++! Ac+++ J+ S++ U! I# V+++! Q Tc++ E++ Draco nigrum, oculi
rubere, suppositus, magus. http://www.geocities.com/flame_stryke/ |
http://www.geocities.com/flame_stryke/AFDList.html Holder of the Scroll
of Nobility from Lady Viriatha, Keeper of the Wand of Sparklies in its
case from Hex, Wielder of the Lady Viri Signature 4x8 from Ysable, Eater
of the Mint Cheesecake from Whisper, Mate to Lady Viriatha, Owner of
Flame Stryke's Windex® Factory, Lord Balloonmaker, Borrower of the Ebony
Wood Fife from Luxatos, Accepter of the Small Statue of a Green Dragon
Covered in Ice Cream Toppings from Juniper, Employer of a miniature
Jester doll from SeaKing, Bearer of the Magic Ever-Bill from SeaKing,
Carrier of the gold piece from whisper: o, Builder of Dragon Fyre Keep,
First Dragon of Realism, Giver of the Pickaxe of Icebreaking to Kalos

--
I'd be a poorer man if I'd never seen an eagle fly.
-- John Denver

[I saw an eagle fly once. Fortunately, I had my eagle fly swatter handy.
Ed.]
Re: Dragons in games (was Re: Dragons in literature and legend) [message #137806 ] Fr, 23 September 2005 13:49
Vespers  
>
> Yes, pretty pictures. I bought the D&D Dragon Species poster.
> Unfortunately, it's just the 10 from the main Monster Manual, but it's
> still nice to look at.
>
> As for the info, some of it is nice to have, but I don't agree with a lot
> of it. For example, I'm a black dragon and I neither spit acid nor live
> in swamps, and while I could probably manage to use magic to enable
> myself to breathe underwater, I can't do it naturally.
>
> But then, I'm sure everyone compares themselves with dragons in games and
> books and finds similarities and differences.....

Well, yeah. I wouldn't expect all dragons to align themselves with the
stats for such from a game, that's just silly. Look at me, I have my DC
in my sig. I'm a black dragon also, but definately not a D&D one.
What I meant was that the info such as where dragons would build lairs
is interesting and presents some nice, and quite useful and likely,
ideas about where dragons of any sort could lair, and what sort of stuff
you could use as protection for that lair.


--
DC2.D Gm L9m15w W- T Phkvfwlt Sks Cbk\re--- Bpl A- Nn M/ H--- $ Fo- R*
Ac+++ J S+ U* I+++! V+ Tc++ E---!#

Caesarion Vesperae
Re: Dragons in games (was Re: Dragons in literature and legend) [message #137810 ] Sa, 24 September 2005 07:58
Lord Flame Stryke  
On 23 Sep 2005, Vespers was found to have scratched
news:4333EBC6.70100 [at] gmail.com on a rock in alt.fan.dragons:

>> But then, I'm sure everyone compares themselves with dragons in games
>> and books and finds similarities and differences.....
> Well, yeah. I wouldn't expect all dragons to align themselves with the
> stats for such from a game, that's just silly. Look at me, I have my
> DC in my sig. I'm a black dragon also, but definately not a D&D one.
> What I meant was that the info such as where dragons would build lairs
> is interesting and presents some nice, and quite useful and likely,
> ideas about where dragons of any sort could lair, and what sort of
> stuff
> you could use as protection for that lair.

Yes, some of that is informative. However, I've got my own protections
on my lair. It's similar to the protections in the "Order of the
Phoenix" in that you can't find the place unless you know what you're
looking for, for example..... But I've also got others, and when I do go
back to my lair, I'll prolly set some of them off myself, having
forgotten that they're there };=8Þ



Lord Flame Stryke

--
DC2.D~ Gm L120f60t180w W T Phawlt Sks Cbk,ere' Bfl A+++! Fr++ Nm M+ O H+
$ Fc~ R+++! Ac+++ J+ S++ U! I# V+++! Q Tc++ E++
Draco nigrum, oculi rubere, suppositus, magus.
http://www.geocities.com/flame_stryke/ |
http://www.geocities.com/flame_stryke/AFDList.html
Holder of the Scroll of Nobility from Lady Viriatha, Keeper of the Wand
of Sparklies in its case from Hex, Wielder of the Lady Viri Signature 4x8
from Ysable, Eater of the Mint Cheesecake from Whisper, Mate to Lady
Viriatha, Owner of Flame Stryke's Windex® Factory, Lord Balloonmaker,
Borrower of the Ebony Wood Fife from Luxatos, Accepter of the Small
Statue of a Green Dragon Covered in Ice Cream Toppings from Juniper,
Employer of a miniature Jester doll from SeaKing, Bearer of the Magic
Ever-Bill from SeaKing, Carrier of the gold piece from whisper: o,
Builder of Dragon Fyre Keep, First Dragon of Realism, Giver of the
Pickaxe of Icebreaking to Kalos

--
"Save yourself! Reboot in 5 seconds!" -- Herd Thinners
Re: Dragons in games (was Re: Dragons in literature and legend) [message #137818 ] So, 25 September 2005 18:38
Golder  
Even though Draconomicon is a very nice book, well illustrated and
all, I learned something with D&D. In my opinion, D&D is the worst
example to take to talk about dragons. There's nothing such as
generality and Draconomicon is very very biaised about it (as most of
D&D materials for all that matters) When saying all black dragons are
evil and living in swamps, it's like saying all yellow men or black men
are so-and-so and living in so-and-so place.
Re: Dragons in games (was Re: Dragons in literature and legend) [message #137819 ] So, 25 September 2005 22:46
Scott L  
On a dark and stormy night, Golder whispered:

> Even though Draconomicon is a very nice book, well illustrated and
> all, I learned something with D&D. In my opinion, D&D is the worst
> example to take to talk about dragons. There's nothing such as
> generality and Draconomicon is very very biaised about it (as most of
> D&D materials for all that matters) When saying all black dragons are
> evil and living in swamps, it's like saying all yellow men or black
> men are so-and-so and living in so-and-so place.

D&D is all about the alignment war - that's essentially the concept
behind almost all of the conflict underlying the adventures in the
game. Dragons are iconic in this conflict - the terrestrial answer to
the otherworldly beings the game refers to as outsiders. Thus, as you
pointed out, it's not a good game for demonstrating the broad spectrum.
FOr what it attempts though, it does an excellent job and don't sell it
short. ^_^

Just a Monkey,

Scott,

--
Visit me at http://4dw.net/moonfriend/index.html
Find the KMG (KY/Midwest Gather) at http://www.wertle.com/midwest.html
Re: Dragons in games (was Re: Dragons in literature and legend) [message #145757 ] Mo, 26 September 2005 05:09
Vespers  
Scott L wrote:
> On a dark and stormy night, Golder whispered:
>
>
>>Even though Draconomicon is a very nice book, well illustrated and
>>all, I learned something with D&D. In my opinion, D&D is the worst
>>example to take to talk about dragons. There's nothing such as
>>generality and Draconomicon is very very biaised about it (as most of
>>D&D materials for all that matters) When saying all black dragons are
>>evil and living in swamps, it's like saying all yellow men or black
>>men are so-and-so and living in so-and-so place.
>
>
> D&D is all about the alignment war - that's essentially the concept
> behind almost all of the conflict underlying the adventures in the
> game. Dragons are iconic in this conflict - the terrestrial answer to
> the otherworldly beings the game refers to as outsiders. Thus, as you
> pointed out, it's not a good game for demonstrating the broad spectrum.
> FOr what it attempts though, it does an excellent job and don't sell it
> short. ^_^
>

Firstly: In vanilla D&D, this is all true, and that was a very good
answer to Golder's statement. however, it doesn't HAVE to be true that
D&D is all about the alignment stresses, as long as there is something
else there to fight about. the new Eberron setting is a good one;
Alignment has almost nothing to do with the major conflicts in the
setting, and alignment means almost nothing in Eberron, that's one of
the major differences that is pointed out in the setting manual.

And in my campaigns, alignment and alignment spells are in the eye of
the beholder, this is easier for me to do because my current campaign is
set in several worlds, almost all in one titanic war, so there's still
plenty of conflict, and some... odd allies. Opposing paladins will each
believe the other is evil and they are good. Blackgaurds and such have
less ubiquity than simply opposing paladins... two forces who both
believe firmly that they are in the right. the main way that this shows
up is in the dragons, for, as like many of us, here especially, the
dragons are the best bit of the game. My players have already run into
an evil gold dragon, and boy did it give them a shock.



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Caesarion Vesperae
Re: Dragons in games (was Re: Dragons in literature and legend) [message #145758 ] Mo, 26 September 2005 07:55
Lord Flame Stryke  
On 25 Sep 2005, Vespers was found to have scratched
news:43376680.7080302 [at] gmail.com on a rock in alt.fan.dragons:

> Firstly: In vanilla D&D, this is all true, and that was a very good
> answer to Golder's statement. however, it doesn't HAVE to be true that
> D&D is all about the alignment stresses, as long as there is something
> else there to fight about. the new Eberron setting is a good one;
> Alignment has almost nothing to do with the major conflicts in the
> setting, and alignment means almost nothing in Eberron, that's one of
> the major differences that is pointed out in the setting manual.

That's one thing I like about Arcana Evolved. There is /no/ alignment.
Thus a Paladin would be a Paladin of his god's ideals.

Not to say there isn't still good versus evil, but, like in your
campaign, that's the call of the player or NPC to make, not an alignment
system. Thus a Paladin's ability to Detect Evil would have to be
balanced by a GMs understanding of what said Paladin sees as evil.

>
> And in my campaigns, alignment and alignment spells are in the eye of
> the beholder, this is easier for me to do because my current campaign
> is set in several worlds, almost all in one titanic war, so there's
> still plenty of conflict, and some... odd allies. Opposing paladins
> will each believe the other is evil and they are good. Blackgaurds and
> such have less ubiquity than simply opposing paladins... two forces
> who both believe firmly that they are in the right. the main way that
> this shows up is in the dragons, for, as like many of us, here
> especially, the dragons are the best bit of the game. My players have
> already run into an evil gold dragon, and boy did it give them a
> shock.

Also in AE, dragons have been gone so long, and now that they're back,
they're completely changed. A black dragon doesn't necessarily live in
a swamp, or spit acid, or have the Water Breathing ability.

All in all, I'd say D&D is good as a reference for someone trying to run
a campaign, since it's easy to reference things. But to truly make your
campaign your own, you need to change this. Especially when you get
players who have memorized the MM.....



Lord Flame Stryke

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Re: Dragons in games (was Re: Dragons in literature and legend) [message #145761 ] Mo, 26 September 2005 09:50
Vespers  
Lord Flame Stryke wrote:

>
> Also in AE, dragons have been gone so long, and now that they're back,
> they're completely changed. A black dragon doesn't necessarily live in
> a swamp, or spit acid, or have the Water Breathing ability.
>
> All in all, I'd say D&D is good as a reference for someone trying to run
> a campaign, since it's easy to reference things. But to truly make your
> campaign your own, you need to change this. Especially when you get
> players who have memorized the MM.....
>

Yah. Except for random wandering monsters, I never use creatures
straight out o' the MM anymore. at the very least, I give them
advancements to hit dice, but more often the 'monsters' that my party
run into are actually monster-race NPCs, which can give them some nasty
surprises when a monster without innate spellcasting ability starts
chucking spells around. Oh, I use basic goblins and stuff as troops in
battle, too, because you can't have epic battles without petty soldiers
to massacre in between the fights with their Captians and monstrous pets
and so on.

But it is true that my campaigns are hardly D&D anymore. I use so many
add-ons and personal adaptations to even the underlying system that the
game is radically different. Its worth it, even if it means I do have to
keep realms of notes. For one thing, the most ancient of Dragons are far
more than 27th level encounters. I believe in installing a righteous
fear of dragons in all my players. There are very few dragon-hunters,
knight, paladin or otherwise, in MY setting.


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Caesarion Vesperae
Vorheriges Thema:Forbidden Knowledge
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