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Fantasy » alt.fan.tolkien » Narya, The Red Ring in Danger
Narya, The Red Ring in Danger [message #122122] Do, 01 September 2005 19:08
Anthony Gialluca  
Hi all,

I have been puzzled by something lately.

I get the impression that the Elves thought of the three elven rings
as being far more valuable then the other rings of power
(The Seven and The Nine). In fact in SILM Celebrimbor gave up The
Seven and The Nine, but preferred death before revealing where
the Three where.

So the question is why did the elves allow Gandalf to place Narya,
the Red Ring, in danger by taking it with him on the quest to
destroy the Ruling Ring? Narya was almost lost with Gandalf in
Moria, and if not for his resurrection it would (likely) have been
lost. This seems inconsistant with their earlier history.
In addition I would think the last thing they would want is to have
any of the Three in close proximity to the Ruling Ring.

Is it possible that they did not know that Cirdan had given it
to Gandalf? Seems unlikely, but I guess its possible.

I know they suspected that with the destruction of the Ruling Ring,
the Three would become powerless, however that never stopped them
from keeping them from Sauron at all costs in the past. In fact
they separated the Three to keep them from all falling into his
hands, yet they now allow Narya to travel in company with the
Ruling Ring.

Any Thoughts on this ?

Tony
Re: Narya, The Red Ring in Danger [message #122128 ] Do, 01 September 2005 20:20
Derek Broughton  
Anthony Gialluca wrote:

> I get the impression that the Elves thought of the three elven rings
> as being far more valuable then the other rings of power
> (The Seven and The Nine). In fact in SILM Celebrimbor gave up The
> Seven and The Nine, but preferred death before revealing where
> the Three where.

The Seven & Nine were already tainted, and never intended for any use the
Elves would desire, anyway.
>
> So the question is why did the elves allow Gandalf to place Narya,
> the Red Ring, in danger by taking it with him on the quest to
> destroy the Ruling Ring?

Where would it be safer? The whole point of giving a Ring of Power to
someone was to place it where it was the most use. Yes, Gandalf did
dangerous things, but he was also the most powerful guardian available to
the ring.

> Narya was almost lost with Gandalf in
> Moria, and if not for his resurrection it would (likely) have been
> lost.

otoh, you could say that giving it to someone who would be resurrected if he
failed to achieve his task on the first go-round was the safest way to look
after it :-)

> This seems inconsistant with their earlier history.
> In addition I would think the last thing they would want is to have
> any of the Three in close proximity to the Ruling Ring.

Why? It seems that Sauron still couldn't tell who held the rings (one has
to wonder why - if you were to ask him who the most powerful elves East of
the sea were, he'd likely name Galadriel, Elrond and Cirdan).
>
> Is it possible that they did not know that Cirdan had given it
> to Gandalf? Seems unlikely, but I guess its possible.

It's not only possible, I'm sure I read it - at most, the other bearers of
the 3 knew, nobody else. Elrond could hardly say at his Council - "Oh no,
Gandalf, you can't go with them - you've got the mumble mumble mumble...".

--
derek
Re: Narya, The Red Ring in Danger [message #122131 ] Do, 01 September 2005 21:33
Anthony Gialluca  
On Thu, 01 Sep 2005 15:20:44 -0300, Derek Broughton wrote:


>> So the question is why did the elves allow Gandalf to place Narya,
>> the Red Ring, in danger by taking it with him on the quest to
>> destroy the Ruling Ring?
>
> Where would it be safer? The whole point of giving a Ring of Power to
> someone was to place it where it was the most use. Yes, Gandalf did
> dangerous things, but he was also the most powerful guardian available to
> the ring.
>

I was thinking that there could be one of three outcomes to the 'quest'.
1. The Ruling Ring is destroyed and it become academic where the Three are.
2. Sauron gets the Ruling Ring back, again academic where the Three are.
3. The Ruling Ring is lost again in a stream, moria, what have you... In
this case having Narya (possibly) lost with it would be a severe loss.

>> Narya was almost lost with Gandalf in
>> Moria, and if not for his resurrection it would (likely) have been
>> lost.
>
> otoh, you could say that giving it to someone who would be resurrected if he
> failed to achieve his task on the first go-round was the safest way to look
> after it :-)
>

.... But the no one knew that Gandalf would be sent back, so there was a
very real chance that his possessions would be lost. Also sending
Gandalf back does not mean the material things get sent back with him.
(Although Sauron, kind of, did the same thing when Numenor [sorry bout the
spelling] was cast into the sea and Sauron lost his body)

>> This seems inconsistant with their earlier history.
>> In addition I would think the last thing they would want is to have
>> any of the Three in close proximity to the Ruling Ring.
>
> Why? It seems that Sauron still couldn't tell who held the rings (one has
> to wonder why - if you were to ask him who the most powerful elves East of
> the sea were, he'd likely name Galadriel, Elrond and Cirdan).

True, but its easy to see a band of characters ambushed by bad Orcs and as
they search the bodies, saying "Hmmm, Two rings !?!?"
I realize that it is a detail, but I don't think I'd have chanced it if
I was the General...

>>
>> Is it possible that they did not know that Cirdan had given it to
>> Gandalf? Seems unlikely, but I guess its possible.
>
> It's not only possible, I'm sure I read it - at most, the other bearers
> of the 3 knew, nobody else. Elrond could hardly say at his Council -
> "Oh no, Gandalf, you can't go with them - you've got the mumble mumble
> mumble...".

Good point here. I cannot see Gandalf saying "can you hang on to this till
I get back....", etc.

Thanks for your response.

Tony
Re: Narya, The Red Ring in Danger [message #122132 ] Do, 01 September 2005 21:39
AC  
On Thu, 01 Sep 2005 13:08:23 -0400,
Anthony Gialluca <tonyabg [at] charter.net> wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> I have been puzzled by something lately.
>
> I get the impression that the Elves thought of the three elven rings
> as being far more valuable then the other rings of power
> (The Seven and The Nine). In fact in SILM Celebrimbor gave up The
> Seven and The Nine, but preferred death before revealing where
> the Three where.
>
> So the question is why did the elves allow Gandalf to place Narya,
> the Red Ring, in danger by taking it with him on the quest to
> destroy the Ruling Ring? Narya was almost lost with Gandalf in
> Moria, and if not for his resurrection it would (likely) have been
> lost. This seems inconsistant with their earlier history.
> In addition I would think the last thing they would want is to have
> any of the Three in close proximity to the Ruling Ring.
>
> Is it possible that they did not know that Cirdan had given it
> to Gandalf? Seems unlikely, but I guess its possible.

I would imagine Elrond, Galadriel and a few others would have known.

>
> I know they suspected that with the destruction of the Ruling Ring,
> the Three would become powerless, however that never stopped them
> from keeping them from Sauron at all costs in the past. In fact
> they separated the Three to keep them from all falling into his
> hands, yet they now allow Narya to travel in company with the
> Ruling Ring.
>
> Any Thoughts on this ?

First of all, the Elves as a group did not have any authority over the
Three. Those that had had such authority (mainly Celebrimbor and Gil-galad)
were dead, so it wasn't as if the Elves had any real say in the matter.

Beyond that, some Elves at least would have perceived that Gandalf was in
fact a Maia, a representative of the Valar, and thus bearing the authority
and power to wield a Ring of Power. Certainly he must have long put it to
good use, much better, I would suspect, than it would have in Cirdan's
hands. Yes, there were risks, but if Gandalf had not kept the enemies of
Sauron inspired and had not used his powers and those of the Red Ring to
discover the policies of the Enemy, then the Ruling Ring would have been
regained and the Three would have become useless to the Elves anyways.

--
Aaron Clausen
mightymartianca [at] hotmail.com
Re: Narya, The Red Ring in Danger [message #122135 ] Do, 01 September 2005 21:46
Anthony Gialluca  
> First of all, the Elves as a group did not have any authority over the
> Three. Those that had had such authority (mainly Celebrimbor and Gil-galad)
> were dead, so it wasn't as if the Elves had any real say in the matter.
>
> Beyond that, some Elves at least would have perceived that Gandalf was in
> fact a Maia, a representative of the Valar, and thus bearing the authority
> and power to wield a Ring of Power. Certainly he must have long put it to
> good use, much better, I would suspect, than it would have in Cirdan's
> hands. Yes, there were risks, but if Gandalf had not kept the enemies of
> Sauron inspired and had not used his powers and those of the Red Ring to
> discover the policies of the Enemy, then the Ruling Ring would have been
> regained and the Three would have become useless to the Elves anyways.

A very good point about Gandalf really being a Maia and representative
of the Valar. I sometimes forget that point. He does make the 'person'
to trust Narya to...

I guess that sending the Ruling Ring back to Mordor in the hands of
a hobbit was a terrible risk to begin with, so as the old saying goes....
".. in for a penny, in for a pound ..."

Thanks for your reply,
Tony
Re: Narya, The Red Ring in Danger [message #122148 ] Do, 01 September 2005 22:38
stephen  
In rec.arts.books.tolkien Derek Broughton <news [at] pointerstop.ca> wrote:
> Anthony Gialluca wrote:

>> I get the impression that the Elves thought of the three elven rings
>> as being far more valuable then the other rings of power
>> (The Seven and The Nine). In fact in SILM Celebrimbor gave up The
>> Seven and The Nine, but preferred death before revealing where
>> the Three where.

> The Seven & Nine were already tainted, and never intended for any use the
> Elves would desire, anyway.

That is not true. The Seven & Nine were definitely intended
for use by Elves. The Seven & Nine were not cursed until
after Sauron captured them. Sauron did assist in creating
them, but there is no text supporting the idea the Seven & Nine
were purely evil from the beginning.

Stephen
Sv: Narya, The Red Ring in Danger [message #122149 ] Mi, 31 August 2005 22:14
Kristian Damm Jensen  
Anthony Gialluca wrote:

<snip>

> So the question is why did the elves allow Gandalf to place Narya,
> the Red Ring, in danger by taking it with him on the quest to
> destroy the Ruling Ring?

It was his, fair and square. No one, not even the White Council or it's
former owner, Cirdan, had any right telling Gandalf what to do and what not
to do with it.

And you might add, that the whole point of giving it to Gandalf was that he
could use it.Disallowing its use when he needed it most would be ... stupid.

<snip>

Kristian

--
"Sex is more fun than logic. One cannot prove this, but it is, in the
same way that Mount Everest is and Alma Cogan isn't." The Album of the
Soundtrack of the Trailer of the Film of Monty Python and the Holy
Grail.
Re: Narya, The Red Ring in Danger [message #122161 ] Do, 01 September 2005 23:24
Chris Kern  
On Thu, 01 Sep 2005 13:08:23 -0400, Anthony Gialluca
<tonyabg [at] charter.net> posted the following:

>So the question is why did the elves allow Gandalf to place Narya,
>the Red Ring, in danger by taking it with him on the quest to
>destroy the Ruling Ring?

The main reason, as AC said, is that no one had the authority to take
the Red Ring away from Gandalf. Cirdan gave it to Gandalf, and hardly
anyone would have even known he had it. I can't see Elrond demanding
that Gandalf surrender the ring or something like that.

-Chris
Re: Narya, The Red Ring in Danger [message #122167 ] Fr, 02 September 2005 00:28
AC  
On Thu, 01 Sep 2005 16:24:31 -0500,
Chris Kern <chriskern99 [at] gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 01 Sep 2005 13:08:23 -0400, Anthony Gialluca
><tonyabg [at] charter.net> posted the following:
>
>>So the question is why did the elves allow Gandalf to place Narya,
>>the Red Ring, in danger by taking it with him on the quest to
>>destroy the Ruling Ring?
>
> The main reason, as AC said, is that no one had the authority to take
> the Red Ring away from Gandalf. Cirdan gave it to Gandalf, and hardly
> anyone would have even known he had it. I can't see Elrond demanding
> that Gandalf surrender the ring or something like that.

I think Elrond and Galadriel would likely have been very pleased that
Gandalf had it.

--
Aaron Clausen
mightymartianca [at] hotmail.com
Re: Narya, The Red Ring in Danger [message #122175 ] Fr, 02 September 2005 02:46
Derek Broughton  
Anthony Gialluca wrote:

> On Thu, 01 Sep 2005 15:20:44 -0300, Derek Broughton wrote:
>
>>> So the question is why did the elves allow Gandalf to place Narya,
>>> the Red Ring, in danger by taking it with him on the quest to
>>> destroy the Ruling Ring?
>>
>> Where would it be safer? The whole point of giving a Ring of Power to
>> someone was to place it where it was the most use. Yes, Gandalf did
>> dangerous things, but he was also the most powerful guardian available to
>> the ring.
>>
>
> I was thinking that there could be one of three outcomes to the 'quest'.
> 1. The Ruling Ring is destroyed and it become academic where the Three
> are. 2. Sauron gets the Ruling Ring back, again academic where the Three
> are. 3. The Ruling Ring is lost again in a stream, moria, what have you...
> In this case having Narya (possibly) lost with it would be a severe loss.

otoh, having Narya _with_ the fellowship probably made (1) more likely and
(2) less so :-)
>
>> otoh, you could say that giving it to someone who would be resurrected if
>> he failed to achieve his task on the first go-round was the safest way to
>> look after it :-)
>
> ... But the no one knew that Gandalf would be sent back, so there was a
> very real chance that his possessions would be lost.

That was a _very_ facetious comment.

> Also sending
> Gandalf back does not mean the material things get sent back with him.

That's _why_ it was facetious - I don't really see how he got to keep the
ring. It's not how _I_ would have played that D&D game! The alternative
view is that nobody knew he'd encounter a Balrog.

> True, but its easy to see a band of characters ambushed by bad Orcs and as
> they search the bodies, saying "Hmmm, Two rings !?!?"
> I realize that it is a detail, but I don't think I'd have chanced it if
> I was the General...

I'm not sure orcs would have found it. Usually nobody could see them -
though I don't know whether that was the rings' doing or the bearers'.
--
derek
Re: Narya, The Red Ring in Danger [message #122176 ] Fr, 02 September 2005 02:51
Derek Broughton  
stephen [at] nomail.com wrote:

> In rec.arts.books.tolkien Derek Broughton <news [at] pointerstop.ca> wrote:
>> Anthony Gialluca wrote:
>
>>> I get the impression that the Elves thought of the three elven rings
>>> as being far more valuable then the other rings of power
>>> (The Seven and The Nine). In fact in SILM Celebrimbor gave up The
>>> Seven and The Nine, but preferred death before revealing where
>>> the Three where.
>
>> The Seven & Nine were already tainted, and never intended for any use the
>> Elves would desire, anyway.
>
> That is not true. The Seven & Nine were definitely intended
> for use by Elves.

Ah well, it's way too long since I read "Of the Rings of Power..." so you're
probably right.

> The Seven & Nine were not cursed until
> after Sauron captured them. Sauron did assist in creating
> them, but there is no text supporting the idea the Seven & Nine
> were purely evil from the beginning.

Not _purely_ evil, but tainted surely? Much is made of the fact that the
Three were never touched by Sauron. I wouldn't have said they were evil
from the start, because they _were_ made by Elves.
--
derek
Re: Narya, The Red Ring in Danger [message #122180 ] Fr, 02 September 2005 04:21
Sean  
Anthony Gialluca wrote:

> Narya was almost lost with Gandalf in
> Moria, and if not for his resurrection it would (likely) have been
> lost.

If you need to fight a Balrog it helps to have an equalizer such
as the Ring of Fire.

Sean
Re: Narya, The Red Ring in Danger [message #122181 ] Fr, 02 September 2005 04:27
stephen  
In rec.arts.books.tolkien Derek Broughton <news [at] pointerstop.ca> wrote:
> stephen [at] nomail.com wrote:

>> In rec.arts.books.tolkien Derek Broughton <news [at] pointerstop.ca> wrote:
>>> Anthony Gialluca wrote:
>>
>>>> I get the impression that the Elves thought of the three elven rings
>>>> as being far more valuable then the other rings of power
>>>> (The Seven and The Nine). In fact in SILM Celebrimbor gave up The
>>>> Seven and The Nine, but preferred death before revealing where
>>>> the Three where.
>>
>>> The Seven & Nine were already tainted, and never intended for any use the
>>> Elves would desire, anyway.
>>
>> That is not true. The Seven & Nine were definitely intended
>> for use by Elves.

> Ah well, it's way too long since I read "Of the Rings of Power..." so you're
> probably right.

>> The Seven & Nine were not cursed until
>> after Sauron captured them. Sauron did assist in creating
>> them, but there is no text supporting the idea the Seven & Nine
>> were purely evil from the beginning.

> Not _purely_ evil, but tainted surely? Much is made of the fact that the
> Three were never touched by Sauron.

Yes, because Sauron seized and perverted the Seven and Nine.
Had he seized the Three, he would likely have done something
similar, although the texts actually are bit inconsistent
regarding the Three Rings. In some it says that Sauron
wanted the Three because
"for those who had them in their keeping could ward off
the decays of time and postpone the weariness of the world."
Presumably Sauron would not have dealt out these rings because
he wanted to possess that power. But elsewhere Tolkien says that this
is a power of all the Rings, so it is unclear what the "truth" is.

> I wouldn't have said they were evil
> from the start, because they _were_ made by Elves.

Yes, they were made by Elves for the Elves and there is no
text that says anything was wrong with them until Sauron made
the One. They were apparently wearing and using the Rings
when Sauron first put on the One.

Tolkien says that there was a certain taint on all the Rings,
including the three, but nothing that I know of says the
Nine and Seven were especially tainted before Sauron
captured them and perverted them.

Stephen
Re: Narya, The Red Ring in Danger [message #122182 ] Fr, 02 September 2005 04:45
Baronjosefr  
<stephen [at] nomail.com> wrote in message news:df8daq$5ul$1 [at] news.msu.edu...
> In rec.arts.books.tolkien Derek Broughton <news [at] pointerstop.ca> wrote:
>> stephen [at] nomail.com wrote:
>
>>> In rec.arts.books.tolkien Derek Broughton <news [at] pointerstop.ca> wrote:
>>>> Anthony Gialluca wrote:
>>>
>>>>> I get the impression that the Elves thought of the three elven rings
>>>>> as being far more valuable then the other rings of power
>>>>> (The Seven and The Nine). In fact in SILM Celebrimbor gave up The
>>>>> Seven and The Nine, but preferred death before revealing where
>>>>> the Three where.

And certainly the 9 Rings given to Men were revered far above the others, as
the dwarves held the Seven in more esteem. The ego-centric isolationist
world-view of the elves is one of the issues and problematic items that
Tolkien attributed to the Elves.

>>>
>>>> The Seven & Nine were already tainted, and never intended for any use
>>>> the
>>>> Elves would desire, anyway.
>>>
>>> That is not true. The Seven & Nine were definitely intended
>>> for use by Elves.
>
>> Ah well, it's way too long since I read "Of the Rings of Power..." so
>> you're
>> probably right.
>
>>> The Seven & Nine were not cursed until
>>> after Sauron captured them. Sauron did assist in creating
>>> them, but there is no text supporting the idea the Seven & Nine
>>> were purely evil from the beginning.
>
>> Not _purely_ evil, but tainted surely? Much is made of the fact that the
>> Three were never touched by Sauron.
>
> Yes, because Sauron seized and perverted the Seven and Nine.
> Had he seized the Three, he would likely have done something
> similar, although the texts actually are bit inconsistent
> regarding the Three Rings. In some it says that Sauron
> wanted the Three because
> "for those who had them in their keeping could ward off
> the decays of time and postpone the weariness of the world."
> Presumably Sauron would not have dealt out these rings because
> he wanted to possess that power. But elsewhere Tolkien says that this
> is a power of all the Rings, so it is unclear what the "truth" is.
>
>> I wouldn't have said they were evil
>> from the start, because they _were_ made by Elves.
>
> Yes, they were made by Elves for the Elves and there is no
> text that says anything was wrong with them until Sauron made
> the One. They were apparently wearing and using the Rings
> when Sauron first put on the One.
>
> Tolkien says that there was a certain taint on all the Rings,
> including the three, but nothing that I know of says the
> Nine and Seven were especially tainted before Sauron
> captured them and perverted them.
>
> Stephen
Re: Narya, The Red Ring in Danger [message #122184 ] Fr, 02 September 2005 05:02
Chris Kern  
On Thu, 01 Sep 2005 21:51:01 -0300, Derek Broughton
<news [at] pointerstop.ca> posted the following:

>stephen [at] nomail.com wrote:
>
>
>> The Seven & Nine were not cursed until
>> after Sauron captured them. Sauron did assist in creating
>> them, but there is no text supporting the idea the Seven & Nine
>> were purely evil from the beginning.
>
>Not _purely_ evil, but tainted surely? Much is made of the fact that the
>Three were never touched by Sauron. I wouldn't have said they were evil
>from the start, because they _were_ made by Elves.

Tolkien does seem to think that the basic motive of the Elves for
creating the Rings was "evil" of a sort -- not diabolic Sauron-like
evil, but well-intentioned "evil" that basically in this case means
"going against God's plan for the world". They wanted to hold back
time and keep the world for the Elves.

-Chris
Re: Narya, The Red Ring in Danger [message #122186 ] Fr, 02 September 2005 06:03
danhenry  
On Thu, 01 Sep 2005 15:33:20 -0400, Anthony Gialluca
<tonyabg [at] charter.net> wrote:

>I was thinking that there could be one of three outcomes to the 'quest'.
>1. The Ruling Ring is destroyed and it become academic where the Three are.
>2. Sauron gets the Ruling Ring back, again academic where the Three are.
>3. The Ruling Ring is lost again in a stream, moria, what have you... In
>this case having Narya (possibly) lost with it would be a severe loss.

Not really. In the third case, Sauron conquers Middle-Earth purely
through overwhelming superiority of armed forces. Yes, the Three could
be saved, by taking them West as the Elves who could fled Middle-Earth
before the Sauronic forces caught them, but the powers of the Elven
Rings were meant primarily to counter undesired aspects of living in
mortal lands. Taken West, they'd be pretty trinkets, but of little
practical value.

--
R. Dan Henry
danhenry [at] inreach.com
Re: Narya, The Red Ring in Danger [message #122187 ] Fr, 02 September 2005 09:58
Christopher Kreuzer  
Kristian Damm Jensen <kristiandammNO [at] SPAMyahoo.dk> wrote:
> Anthony Gialluca wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>> So the question is why did the elves allow Gandalf to place Narya,
>> the Red Ring, in danger by taking it with him on the quest to
>> destroy the Ruling Ring?
>
> It was his, fair and square. No one, not even the White Council or
> it's former owner, Cirdan, had any right telling Gandalf what to do
> and what not to do with it.
>
> And you might add, that the whole point of giving it to Gandalf was
> that he could use it.Disallowing its use when he needed it most would
> be ... stupid.

I haven't seen anyone respond to the idea that having one of the Three
Rings near the Ruling Ring might be dangerous. I guess the idea is
either that the bearer of the One Ring might try to use it and overcome
the bearers of the Three. But that would take time and Frodo would be
most unsuited for doing that anyway (as Galadriel said - it would
destroy him).

The other idea is that a bearer of one of the Three might be especially
tempted to take the Ruling Ring, if only because they have some idea of
the power they might obtain. I think we see this with Galadriel, but she
is able to restrain herself. Gandalf and Elrond also reject the One, but
Gandalf, unlike Elrond and Galadriel, travels with the One Ring.

Would Elrond and/or Galadriel have succumbed to temptation (like
Boromir) if either of them had travelled with Frodo? Would Gandalf have
eventually tried to take the Ring from Frodo if he had reached the
Cracks of Doom with Frodo?

And would having one of the Three _help_ in resisting the effect of the
One Ring, or would it be a hindrance? This applies both to Gandalf and
to Frodo, and maybe also to Boromir. Did the absence of Gandalf and the
Red Ring make it easier for Boromir to snap and try to take the Ring
from Frodo?

The final thing about having Gandalf near the bearer of the One Ring, is
that he could (maybe through Narya) 'monitor' Frodo and see more readily
what needed to be done to help Frodo in his internal battle against the
Ring, even if only to carry on alone.

Christopher

--
---
Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard
Re: Narya, The Red Ring in Danger [message #122189 ] Fr, 02 September 2005 12:08
onq  
Anthony Gialluca wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> I have been puzzled by something lately.
>
> I get the impression that the Elves thought of the three elven rings
> as being far more valuable then the other rings of power
> (The Seven and The Nine). In fact in SILM Celebrimbor gave up The
> Seven and The Nine, but preferred death before revealing where
> the Three where.

They were. They were the most powerful but were not made for battle but
for warding off the effects of time and decay in Middle Earth, itself and
act repugnant to Eru's Plan for Arda.

> So the question is why did the elves allow Gandalf to place Narya,
> the Red Ring, in danger by taking it with him on the quest to
> destroy the Ruling Ring? Narya was almost lost with Gandalf in
> Moria, and if not for his resurrection it would (likely) have been
> lost. This seems inconsistant with their earlier history.
> In addition I would think the last thing they would want is to have
> any of the Three in close proximity to the Ruling Ring.

I'm not sure that any of the Three would be of immediate use to Sauron.
In that sense there may have been no risk whatsoever. It might increase
his personal power, but was still subject to the One. With that lost he
could still not recover his original native strength. And of course, with
the One destroyed, any works Sauron might have started with any of the
three would also fade away.

> Is it possible that they did not know that Cirdan had given it
> to Gandalf? Seems unlikely, but I guess its possible.

Very unlikely.

> I know they suspected that with the destruction of the Ruling Ring,
> the Three would become powerless, however that never stopped them
> from keeping them from Sauron at all costs in the past. In fact
> they separated the Three to keep them from all falling into his
> hands, yet they now allow Narya to travel in company with the
> Ruling Ring.
>
> Any Thoughts on this ?
>
> Tony


I don't know about the separation, but the Elves took off their rings to
make them less vulnerable to Sauron.

Obviously some original ability to resist Sauron was with their bearers
and possibly in the nature of the rings, which was not to seek dominion,
unlike the One.

It is obvious that by the time of the events in the LotR a significant
ability to resist Sauron's enslavement had occurred, probably because he
was no longer actually wearing the One. In addition to her powers of
concealment which she apparently used to help Eorl the Young reach Gondor
in time of need, Galadriel was described as wearing on of the Three in
the The Mirror of Galadriel.

In it she confirms that Sauron cannot see her, nor her thought. Not yet.
Prior to looking in Galadriel's Mirror, prior to wearing the One Ring,
prior to seeing the Eye of Sauron, Frodo was unable to see Galadriel's
Ring.

Thus it may be assumed [rank speculation follows] unless Sauron actually
possessed Gandalf and searched him mystically for the Ring he might not
have found it.

The Balrog, not being a servant dos not count, IMO. He had no loyalty per
se to Sauron although if it came to a confrontation, might have owned him
as his original Lord's successor. The Balrog, virtually a free agent and
almost mindless, an elemental thing, knowing only an enemy he had ot
fight, never sought for Narya. Gandalf is never shown to have used it in
the fight.

All Sauron's servants OTOH were charged to find, and were drawn to the
evil of, the One Ring. It is probable that any of the Three might
actually act as a deterrent or repellent to things of Evil, so again the
risk of them discovering any of the Three seems minimal.

FWIW

M.
Re: Narya, The Red Ring in Danger [message #125785 ] Fr, 02 September 2005 16:52
Baronjosefr  
"Michael O'Neill" <onq [at] bwahahaha.indigo.ie> wrote in message
news:431824A5.2C634350 [at] bwahahaha.indigo.ie...
> Anthony Gialluca wrote:
>>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I have been puzzled by something lately.
>>
>> I get the impression that the Elves thought of the three elven rings
>> as being far more valuable then the other rings of power
>> (The Seven and The Nine). In fact in SILM Celebrimbor gave up The
>> Seven and The Nine, but preferred death before revealing where
>> the Three where.
>
> They were. They were the most powerful but were not made for battle but
> for warding off the effects of time and decay in Middle Earth, itself and
> act repugnant to Eru's Plan for Arda.
>
>> So the question is why did the elves allow Gandalf to place Narya,
>> the Red Ring, in danger by taking it with him on the quest to
>> destroy the Ruling Ring? Narya was almost lost with Gandalf in
>> Moria, and if not for his resurrection it would (likely) have been
>> lost. This seems inconsistant with their earlier history.
>> In addition I would think the last thing they would want is to have
>> any of the Three in close proximity to the Ruling Ring.


The ring would have no use to Sauron himself. The whole idea behind them was
that in wearing them, the bearer would fall under Sauron's sway, therefore
they would need to be in the hands of anyone BUT Sauron.

>
> I'm not sure that any of the Three would be of immediate use to Sauron.
> In that sense there may have been no risk whatsoever. It might increase
> his personal power, but was still subject to the One. With that lost he
> could still not recover his original native strength. And of course, with
> the One destroyed, any works Sauron might have started with any of the
> three would also fade away.
>
>> Is it possible that they did not know that Cirdan had given it
>> to Gandalf? Seems unlikely, but I guess its possible.
>
> Very unlikely.
>
>> I know they suspected that with the destruction of the Ruling Ring,
>> the Three would become powerless, however that never stopped them
>> from keeping them from Sauron at all costs in the past. In fact
>> they separated the Three to keep them from all falling into his
>> hands, yet they now allow Narya to travel in company with the
>> Ruling Ring.
>>
>> Any Thoughts on this ?
>>
>> Tony
>
>
> I don't know about the separation, but the Elves took off their rings to
> make them less vulnerable to Sauron.
>
> Obviously some original ability to resist Sauron was with their bearers
> and possibly in the nature of the rings, which was not to seek dominion,
> unlike the One.
>
> It is obvious that by the time of the events in the LotR a significant
> ability to resist Sauron's enslavement had occurred, probably because he
> was no longer actually wearing the One. In addition to her powers of
> concealment which she apparently used to help Eorl the Young reach Gondor
> in time of need, Galadriel was described as wearing on of the Three in
> the The Mirror of Galadriel.
>
> In it she confirms that Sauron cannot see her, nor her thought. Not yet.
> Prior to looking in Galadriel's Mirror, prior to wearing the One Ring,
> prior to seeing the Eye of Sauron, Frodo was unable to see Galadriel's
> Ring.
>
> Thus it may be assumed [rank speculation follows] unless Sauron actually
> possessed Gandalf and searched him mystically for the Ring he might not
> have found it.
>
> The Balrog, not being a servant dos not count, IMO. He had no loyalty per
> se to Sauron although if it came to a confrontation, might have owned him
> as his original Lord's successor. The Balrog, virtually a free agent and
> almost mindless, an elemental thing, knowing only an enemy he had ot
> fight, never sought for Narya. Gandalf is never shown to have used it in
> the fight.
>
> All Sauron's servants OTOH were charged to find, and were drawn to the
> evil of, the One Ring. It is probable that any of the Three might
> actually act as a deterrent or repellent to things of Evil, so again the
> risk of them discovering any of the Three seems minimal.
>
> FWIW
>
> M.
Re: Narya, The Red Ring in Danger [message #125792 ] Fr, 02 September 2005 18:57
AC  
On Fri, 02 Sep 2005 14:52:26 GMT,
Bajori <baronjosefr [at] aol.com> wrote:
>
> "Michael O'Neill" <onq [at] bwahahaha.indigo.ie> wrote in message
> news:431824A5.2C634350 [at] bwahahaha.indigo.ie...
>> Anthony Gialluca wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> I have been puzzled by something lately.
>>>
>>> I get the impression that the Elves thought of the three elven rings
>>> as being far more valuable then the other rings of power
>>> (The Seven and The Nine). In fact in SILM Celebrimbor gave up The
>>> Seven and The Nine, but preferred death before revealing where
>>> the Three where.
>>
>> They were. They were the most powerful but were not made for battle but
>> for warding off the effects of time and decay in Middle Earth, itself and
>> act repugnant to Eru's Plan for Arda.
>>
>>> So the question is why did the elves allow Gandalf to place Narya,
>>> the Red Ring, in danger by taking it with him on the quest to
>>> destroy the Ruling Ring? Narya was almost lost with Gandalf in
>>> Moria, and if not for his resurrection it would (likely) have been
>>> lost. This seems inconsistant with their earlier history.
>>> In addition I would think the last thing they would want is to have
>>> any of the Three in close proximity to the Ruling Ring.
>
>
> The ring would have no use to Sauron himself. The whole idea behind them was
> that in wearing them, the bearer would fall under Sauron's sway, therefore
> they would need to be in the hands of anyone BUT Sauron.

I'm pretty darn certain that the Three would have been of enormous value to
Sauron. He certainly desired them greatly, possibly more than the Seven and
the Nine. Celebrimbor also placed a much greater value on them than he did
on the others. If for no other than Sauron might be able to farm the Three
out to more willing bearers, he'd want any or all of them. I also have a
hunch that he probably could have used the Three himself.

--
Aaron Clausen
mightymartianca [at] hotmail.com
Re: Narya, The Red Ring in Danger [message #125801 ] Fr, 02 September 2005 19:42
Stan Brown  
In article <pan.2005.09.01.17.08.19.940941 [at] charter.net>, Anthony
Gialluca favored us with...
> I get the impression that the Elves thought of the three elven rings
> as being far more valuable then the other rings of power
> (The Seven and The Nine). In fact in SILM Celebrimbor gave up The
> Seven and The Nine, but preferred death before revealing where
> the Three where.

Yes, I think you're correct in principle. But I would not generalize
about "the Elves" in that way. I think most Elves had no idea of the
existence of the Rings. Did Thranduil's people in Mirkwood know of
them? I daresay not -- perhaps Thranduil himself did know. (It's not
clear at the Council of Elrond how much T's son Legolas knew. But he
does seem surprised at Elrond's discussion of the Rings, remarking
that Gollum's escape now seems a more serious matter than he had
thought it was.)

Gandalf talks about "the Wise" and the White Council. These may or
may not be the same thing, but roughly they mean the lords of the
Eldar, plus the Wizards after they came to Middle-earth. My
understanding is that only the Wise knew much about the Rings, and of
them Saruman knew the most until near the end.

> So the question is why did the elves allow Gandalf to place Narya,
> the Red Ring, in danger by taking it with him on the quest to
> destroy the Ruling Ring? Narya was almost lost with Gandalf in
> Moria, and if not for his resurrection it would (likely) have been
> lost. This seems inconsistant with their earlier history.
> In addition I would think the last thing they would want is to have
> any of the Three in close proximity to the Ruling Ring.

First, it's not certain that anyone but Elrond and Cirdan and
probably Galadriel knew that Gandalf had the Red Ring. Cirdan knew,
since he gave it to him. :-) Elrond would have had to know, given how
much time Gandalf spent in Rivendell. Galadriel would probably know,
from meeting Gandalf at the White Council.

But others probably would not_ know. Remember that no one in the
Fellowship perceived Galadriel's Ring except for Frodo, and none
perceived Gandalf's or Elrond's as far as we're told. Frodo could
perceive Galadriel's Ring by the power of the one that he carried; I
infer that Elrond and Galadriel could perceive Gandalf's Ring even if
he didn't tell them about it.

As to whether the Elves (I would rather say "the Wise") could
"allow" Gandalf to do this or that, remember that they had to trust
his judgment. If he was wearing the Red Ring and was leading the
Fellowship to Mordor, then to Mordor the Red Ring must go. It was
foreseeable that he would need it along the way (as he did, probably,
in healing Théoden). It was _not_ foreseeable that he would have a
run-in with a Balrog.

And even if it had been foreseen, what other choice could they make?
The Red Ring would become worse than useless if Sauron triumphed, and
if he was defeated (by destroying the One, the only way) then it
would become exactly useless. So why even try to persuade Gandalf to
leave it behind?

> Is it possible that they did not know that Cirdan had given it
> to Gandalf? Seems unlikely, but I guess its possible.
>
> I know they suspected that with the destruction of the Ruling Ring,
> the Three would become powerless, however that never stopped them
> from keeping them from Sauron at all costs in the past.

The difference, I think, is that at the start they contemplated a
long period of "cold war" when the Three Rings could do useful work.
But by the time of the Council of Elrond it was clear that a real war
was imminent, and the useful live of the Three was very nearly over
whichever way the Quest ended.

--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site)
Tolkien letters FAQ:
http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html
FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm
Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm
more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm
Re: Narya, The Red Ring in Danger [message #125802 ] Fr, 02 September 2005 19:43
Stan Brown  
In article <GCTRe.100834$G8.6752 [at] text.news.blueyonder.co.uk>,
Christopher Kreuzer favored us with...
> The other idea is that a bearer of one of the Three might be especially
> tempted to take the Ruling Ring, if only because they have some idea of
> the power they might obtain. I think we see this with Galadriel, but she
> is able to restrain herself. Gandalf and Elrond also reject the One, but
> Gandalf, unlike Elrond and Galadriel, travels with the One Ring.

That would be an argument for leaving Gandalf behind, not for leaving
the Red Ring behind. :-)

--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Tolkien FAQs: Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site)
Tolkien letters FAQ:
http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html
FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm
Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm
more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm
Re: Narya, The Red Ring in Danger [message #125803 ] Fr, 02 September 2005 19:47
Stan Brown  
In article <pan.2005.09.01.19.33.18.270171 [at] charter.net>, Anthony
Gialluca favored us with...
> 3. The Ruling Ring is lost again in a stream, moria, what have you... In
> this case having Narya (possibly) lost with it would be a severe loss.

That third one was not a possiblity. With Sauron on the move, as he
was, a "lost" Ruling Ring would very quickly be found again by his
agents. All it would take would be to have a few Nazgûl go through
Moria and they'd find it.

The only safety for the Quest was to keep moving, so that Sauron and
his agents couldn't get a "fix" on the Ring. That's why it was so
important to neutralize the Nazgûl at the Ford of Bruinen, so that
they would not have leisure to zero in on Rivendell and overcome it
while the Ring was still there.

--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site)
Tolkien letters FAQ:
http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html
FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm
Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm
more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm
Re: Narya, The Red Ring in Danger [message #125813 ] Fr, 02 September 2005 21:19
Christopher Kreuzer  
Stan Brown <the_stan_brown [at] fastmail.fm> wrote:

<snip>

> First, it's not certain that anyone but Elrond and Cirdan and
> probably Galadriel knew that Gandalf had the Red Ring.

Indeed. As it says here:

"...but not until the time came for him [Gandalf] to depart was it known
that he had long guarded the Red Ring of Fire." (Of the Rings of Power
and the Third Age)

Compare that to the scene at the Grey Havens:

"As he turned and came towards them Frodo saw that Gandalf now wore
openly upon his hand the Third Ring, Narya the Great, and the stone upon
it was red as fire." (The Grey Havens)

This seems to imply that Frodo knew, before this moment, that Gandalf
bore the Ring of Fire, but this is not clearly stated anywhere, as far
as I know.

Christopher

--
---
Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard
Re: Narya, The Red Ring in Danger [message #125814 ] Fr, 02 September 2005 21:21
Yuk Tang  
Michael O'Neill <onq [at] bwahahaha.indigo.ie> wrote in
news:431824A5.2C634350 [at] bwahahaha.indigo.ie:
> Anthony Gialluca wrote:
>>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I have been puzzled by something lately.
>>
>> I get the impression that the Elves thought of the three elven
>> rings as being far more valuable then the other rings of power
>> (The Seven and The Nine). In fact in SILM Celebrimbor gave up The
>> Seven and The Nine, but preferred death before revealing where
>> the Three where.
>
> They were. They were the most powerful but were not made for
> battle but for warding off the effects of time and decay in Middle
> Earth, itself and act repugnant to Eru's Plan for Arda.

Does any material exist that describe what the Nine and Seven, or
more probably the Sixteen, do? Given that 1: they were made by
Noldor and 2: other Rings were described to have been essays in the
craft, I'd have thought that all the major Rings, the Nine, the Seven
and the Three, were all made for essentially the same overall
purpose, as described above, with the Three being the most advanced
of the lot.


>> So the question is why did the elves allow Gandalf to place
>> Narya, the Red Ring, in danger by taking it with him on the quest
>> to destroy the Ruling Ring? Narya was almost lost with Gandalf
>> in Moria, and if not for his resurrection it would (likely) have
>> been lost. This seems inconsistant with their earlier history.
>> In addition I would think the last thing they would want is to
>> have any of the Three in close proximity to the Ruling Ring.
>
> I'm not sure that any of the Three would be of immediate use to
> Sauron. In that sense there may have been no risk whatsoever. It
> might increase his personal power, but was still subject to the
> One. With that lost he could still not recover his original native
> strength. And of course, with the One destroyed, any works Sauron
> might have started with any of the three would also fade away.

I'd imagine that Lorien and Rivendell would still have some memory of
their former inhabitants, long after the Third Age. At the time of
LotR, it had been 4500+ years since Eregion was devastated in the War
of the Rings, but Legolas could feel the ruins crying for the
forgotten Noldor.


>> Is it possible that they did not know that Cirdan had given it
>> to Gandalf? Seems unlikely, but I guess its possible.
>
> Very unlikely.

Saruman, an outsider, managed to find this out, so presumably the
other Ringholders would have known earlier.

[snip some stuff showing why O'Neill is worth reading]


--
Cheers, ymt.
Re: Narya, The Red Ring in Danger [message #125815 ] Fr, 02 September 2005 21:27
Yuk Tang  
"Christopher Kreuzer" <spamgard [at] blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in
news:0B1Se.101168$G8.3755 [at] text.news.blueyonder.co.uk:
> Stan Brown <the_stan_brown [at] fastmail.fm> wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>> First, it's not certain that anyone but Elrond and Cirdan and
>> probably Galadriel knew that Gandalf had the Red Ring.
>
> Indeed. As it says here:
>
> "...but not until the time came for him [Gandalf] to depart was it
> known that he had long guarded the Red Ring of Fire." (Of the
> Rings of Power and the Third Age)
>
> Compare that to the scene at the Grey Havens:
>
> "As he turned and came towards them Frodo saw that Gandalf now
> wore openly upon his hand the Third Ring, Narya the Great, and the
> stone upon it was red as fire." (The Grey Havens)
>
> This seems to imply that Frodo knew, before this moment, that
> Gandalf bore the Ring of Fire, but this is not clearly stated
> anywhere, as far as I know.

It's also said in UT (Hunt for the Ring?) that Saruman resented
Gandalf all the more when he discovered that Cirdan had given him the
Ring. If so, 'not until the time came for him to depart was it
known' may have been referring to general knowledge rather than
knowledge outside the Ringholders.


--
Cheers, ymt.
Re: Narya, The Red Ring in Danger [message #125823 ] Fr, 02 September 2005 22:23
AC  
On 2 Sep 2005 19:21:57 GMT,
Yuk Tang <jim.laker2 [at] yahoo.com> wrote:
> Michael O'Neill <onq [at] bwahahaha.indigo.ie> wrote in
> news:431824A5.2C634350 [at] bwahahaha.indigo.ie:
>> Anthony Gialluca wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> I have been puzzled by something lately.
>>>
>>> I get the impression that the Elves thought of the three elven
>>> rings as being far more valuable then the other rings of power
>>> (The Seven and The Nine). In fact in SILM Celebrimbor gave up The
>>> Seven and The Nine, but preferred death before revealing where
>>> the Three where.
>>
>> They were. They were the most powerful but were not made for
>> battle but for warding off the effects of time and decay in Middle
>> Earth, itself and act repugnant to Eru's Plan for Arda.
>
> Does any material exist that describe what the Nine and Seven, or
> more probably the Sixteen, do? Given that 1: they were made by
> Noldor and 2: other Rings were described to have been essays in the
> craft, I'd have thought that all the major Rings, the Nine, the Seven
> and the Three, were all made for essentially the same overall
> purpose, as described above, with the Three being the most advanced
> of the lot.

Other than the obvious feature that the Nine made the Nazgul powerful,
extended their lives beyond all measure and subjected them absolutely to
Sauron's will, we know nothing of the Nine. The Seven are said to have been
foundations of the wealth of the Dwarves, and there is that strange
statement that they needed gold to breed gold, though I've never really got
a handle on that. Oh yes, and the Seven seemed to have greatly inflamed the
greed of Dwarves.

I would expect that their powers would be similar to the Three, in that they
were meant as means of preserving things.

<snip>

--
Aaron Clausen
mightymartianca [at] hotmail.com
Re: Narya, The Red Ring in Danger [message #125826 ] Fr, 02 September 2005 19:28
Derek Broughton  
stephen [at] nomail.com wrote:

>> I wouldn't have said they were evil
>> from the start, because they _were_ made by Elves.
>
> Yes, they were made by Elves for the Elves and there is no
> text that says anything was wrong with them until Sauron made
> the One. They were apparently wearing and using the Rings
> when Sauron first put on the One.
>
> Tolkien says that there was a certain taint on all the Rings,
> including the three, but nothing that I know of says the
> Nine and Seven were especially tainted before Sauron
> captured them and perverted them.

Nothing _says_ that, but I simply can't believe that Sauron didn't taint
_everything_ he touched. Since he helped make them, they _must_ have been
already tainted.
--
derek
Re: Narya, The Red Ring in Danger [message #125834 ] Sa, 03 September 2005 03:49
Stan Brown  
In article <slrndhh14m.8qj.mightymartianca [at] nobody.here>, AC favored
us with...
> I'm pretty darn certain that the Three would have been of enormous value to
> Sauron. He certainly desired them greatly, possibly more than the Seven and
> the Nine. Celebrimbor also placed a much greater value on them than he did
> on the others. If for no other than Sauron might be able to farm the Three
> out to more willing bearers, he'd want any or all of them. I also have a
> hunch that he probably could have used the Three himself.

He _might_ have been able to farm them out to willing bearers, though
I rather suspect not. But how exactly do you think he could have used
them himself? I can't see it, on two grounds:

(1) The Three were not like the others. Remember what Elrond said of
them at the Council: "they were not made as weapons of war or
conquest: that is not their power. Those who made them did not desire
strength or domination or hoarded wealth, but understanding, making,
and healing, to preserve all things unstained." Understanding,
making, and healing would be of no interest to Sauron, I deem.

(2) On the other hand, remember that the One had the powers of the
others. If Sauron wanted to exercise the powers of the Three, he
could do it via the One.

My own belief is that Sauron wanted the Three out of spite, simply to
prevent anyone else using them.

--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site)
Tolkien letters FAQ:
http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html
FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm
Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm
more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm
Re: Narya, The Red Ring in Danger [message #125835 ] Sa, 03 September 2005 03:56
Stan Brown  
In article <Xns96C5CF2A0DB54jimlaker2yahoocom [at] 130.133.1.4>, Yuk Tang
favored us with...
>
> Does any material exist that describe what the Nine and Seven, or
> more probably the Sixteen, do?

Nope, not in detail -- believe me, I'd love to find such material and
include it in the FAQ of the Rings. Tolkien was maddeningly vague
about what the One could do, but compared to his discussion of the
Seven and the Nine he was super-precise when writing of the One.

The "History of Galadriel and Celeborn" does hint that there might be
some difference between the Seven and the Nine, but it's not clear
and the passage could certainbly be read another way. (See
<http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm#Q79-Differ>.) We might
turn the question around and ask whether one of the Nine could "breed
gold" as the Seven could do. That question has two parts: could a
Man, sufficiently skilled, do it? Could one of the Nine do it at all,
even ion the Finger of a Dwarf? In other words, was the ability of
the Seven to "breed gold" merely an enhancement of the Dwarves'
natural skill in trade
<http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm#Q79-DwarfWealth>, or was
it an inherent power of those Rings?

--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Tolkien FAQs: http://tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site)
Tolkien letters FAQ:
http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html
FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm
Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm
more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm
Re: Narya, The Red Ring in Danger [message #125836 ] Sa, 03 September 2005 04:01
Stan Brown  
In article <Xns96C5CF2A0DB54jimlaker2yahoocom [at] 130.133.1.4>, Yuk Tang
favored us with...
> Saruman, an outsider, managed to find this out, so presumably the
> other Ringholders would have known earlier
("this" = that Gandalf had the Red Ring)

Saruman was not an outsider, but was right in the middle until the
very start of the War of the Ring. He was chief of the White Council
and head of the order of Istari. He was also a Maia, a higher order
of being than the Elves. _And_ he had made a special study of Ring-
lore, more than any other member of the Council, even Gandalf(*). So
it's not at all surprising that Saruman would perceive Gandalf's
wearing of the Red Ring.

(*) Only within the last few years of the Third Age did Gandalf do
his own independent research in the library at Minas Tirith.

--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site)
Tolkien letters FAQ:
http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html
FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm
Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm
more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm
Re: Narya, The Red Ring in Danger [message #125852 ] Sa, 03 September 2005 10:18
Yuk Tang  
Stan Brown <the_stan_brown [at] fastmail.fm> wrote in
news:MPG.1d82ce03b270c29b9896cb [at] news.individual.net:
> In article <Xns96C5CF2A0DB54jimlaker2yahoocom [at] 130.133.1.4>, Yuk
> Tang favored us with...
>> Saruman, an outsider, managed to find this out, so presumably the
>> other Ringholders would have known earlier
> ("this" = that Gandalf had the Red Ring)
>
> Saruman was not an outsider, but was right in the middle until the
> very start of the War of the Ring. He was chief of the White
> Council and head of the order of Istari. He was also a Maia, a
> higher order of being than the Elves. _And_ he had made a special
> study of Ring- lore, more than any other member of the Council,
> even Gandalf(*). So it's not at all surprising that Saruman would
> perceive Gandalf's wearing of the Red Ring.

By outsider, I meant someone outside the actual Ringholders.
Although judging by the silence at the Council, the leading Elves,
and not just Cirdan-Gandalf-Galadriel-Elrond knew roughly where the
Three were and what they'd been up to.

Thinking about it, they fell silent upon the suggestion that the
Three should be used against Sauron, but is that any indication that
they knew where Narya was? It could be that they knew where Vilya
and Nenya were (how can anyone not?), but not the more mobile third.


> (*) Only within the last few years of the Third Age did Gandalf do
> his own independent research in the library at Minas Tirith.

One wonders if Gandalf shared his suspicions about Bilbo's Ring with
anyone before roping in Aragorn. Having become wary of Saruman, did
he become similarly so with Elrond and Galadriel? Probably not, but
I wonder how he felt at the time, the most oppressive tidbit in the
world weighing on his mind and unable to talk about it to anyone.


--
Cheers, ymt.
Re: Narya, The Red Ring in Danger [message #125860 ] Sa, 03 September 2005 14:27
Tux Wonder-Dog  
AC wrote:

> On 2 Sep 2005 19:21:57 GMT,
> Yuk Tang <jim.laker2 [at] yahoo.com> wrote:
>> Michael O'Neill <onq [at] bwahahaha.indigo.ie> wrote in
>> news:431824A5.2C634350 [at] bwahahaha.indigo.ie:
>>> Anthony Gialluca wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi all,
>>>>
>>>> I have been puzzled by something lately.
>>>>
>>>> I get the impression that the Elves thought of the three elven
>>>> rings as being far more valuable then the other rings of power
>>>> (The Seven and The Nine). In fact in SILM Celebrimbor gave up The
>>>> Seven and The Nine, but preferred death before revealing where
>>>> the Three where.
>>>
>>> They were. They were the most powerful but were not made for
>>> battle but for warding off the effects of time and decay in Middle
>>> Earth, itself and act repugnant to Eru's Plan for Arda.
>>
>> Does any material exist that describe what the Nine and Seven, or
>> more probably the Sixteen, do? Given that 1: they were made by
>> Noldor and 2: other Rings were described to have been essays in the
>> craft, I'd have thought that all the major Rings, the Nine, the Seven
>> and the Three, were all made for essentially the same overall
>> purpose, as described above, with the Three being the most advanced
>> of the lot.
>
> Other than the obvious feature that the Nine made the Nazgul powerful,
> extended their lives beyond all measure and subjected them absolutely to
> Sauron's will, we know nothing of the Nine. The Seven are said to have
> been foundations of the wealth of the Dwarves, and there is that strange
> statement that they needed gold to breed gold,

If I remember correctly, the phrase "gold breeding gold" was a mediaeval
term used to describe "ursury" - lending at interest; which the Catholic
Church forbade.

What I guess Tolkien meant is that it made the Dwarves acquisitive, made
them greedy, made them abusive in their relations with other speaking
beings, whereas before, in the Silmarillion, they were portrayed as noble
smiths and traders in manufactured goods.
> though I've never really
> got
> a handle on that. Oh yes, and the Seven seemed to have greatly inflamed
> the greed of Dwarves.
>
> I would expect that their powers would be similar to the Three, in that
> they were meant as means of preserving things.

In which case their effects on mortals and Dwarves were the result of being
used inappropriately, and being linked, I take it, to the One Ring.
>
> <snip>
>

Wesley Parish
--
"Good, late in to more rewarding well."  "Well, you tonight.  And I was
lookintelligent woman of Ming home.  I trust you with a tender silence."  I
get a word into my hands, a different and unbelike, probably - 'she
fortunate fat woman', wrong word.  I think to me, I justupid.
Let not emacs meta-X dissociate-press write your romantic dialogs...!!!
Re: Narya, The Red Ring in Danger [message #125861 ] Sa, 03 September 2005 14:20
Michael Graf  
Hi!

Stan Brown schrieb:

> In article <slrndhh14m.8qj.mightymartianca [at] nobody.here>, AC favored
> us with...

>>I'm pretty darn certain that the Three would have been of enormous value to
>>Sauron. He certainly desired them greatly, possibly more than the Seven and
>>the Nine. Celebrimbor also placed a much greater value on them than he did
>>on the others. If for no other than Sauron might be able to farm the Three
>>out to more willing bearers, he'd want any or all of them. I also have a
>>hunch that he probably could have used the Three himself.

> He _might_ have been able to farm them out to willing bearers, though
> I rather suspect not. But how exactly do you think he could have used
> them himself? I can't see it, on two grounds:
> (1) The Three were not like the others. Remember what Elrond said of
> them at the Council: "they were not made as weapons of war or
> conquest: that is not their power. Those who made them did not desire
> strength or domination or hoarded wealth, but understanding, making,
> and healing, to preserve all things unstained." Understanding,
> making, and healing would be of no interest to Sauron, I deem.

I wouldn't be too sure about that. Sauron as well as Morgoth had an
enormous weak point, I think: they were unable to be 'empathic', they
weren't able to foresee they oppenents actions, because 'to those who
are pitiless the deeds of pity are ever strange'. (not exactly quoted,
but something like that)
Perhaps the Three would help him to eliminate this weakness...but one
should think who would have been able to oppose him after the regained
the One.

> (2) On the other hand, remember that the One had the powers of the
> others. If Sauron wanted to exercise the powers of the Three, he
> could do it via the One.

But it is said that the Three had been forged by Celebrimbor alone,
although even they were subject to the One. Mabe he could read the minds
of their wearers, or even control them, but maybe he wouldn't be able to
put their powers to work.

> My own belief is that Sauron wanted the Three out of spite, simply to
> prevent anyone else using them.

Possible. Perhaps another element is the fact that Sauron had been
jealous of their beauty and simply wanted to possess them because of
greed, in a way similar to Morgoth and the Silmarils. But it's only a
thought.


--
We will dance upon the water
We will walk upon the wind
We will tear down all the borders
Let the holy time begin (SPOCK'S BEARD)
Re: Narya, The Red Ring in Danger [message #125871 ] Sa, 03 September 2005 16:02
Stan Brown  
In article <Xns96C65EB966B01jimlaker2yahoocom [at] 130.133.1.4>, Yuk Tang
favored us with...
> Thinking about it, they fell silent upon the suggestion that the
> Three should be used against Sauron, but is that any indication that
> they knew where Narya was?

They fell silent, in my opinion, because they were waiting for Elrond
to speak -- and he did!

--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site)
Tolkien letters FAQ:
http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html
FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm
Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm
more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm
Re: Narya, The Red Ring in Danger [message #125880 ] Sa, 03 September 2005 20:23
Yuk Tang  
Stan Brown <the_stan_brown [at] fastmail.fm> wrote in
news:MPG.1d837709330a8e59896d2 [at] news.individual.net:
> In article <Xns96C65EB966B01jimlaker2yahoocom [at] 130.133.1.4>, Yuk
> Tang favored us with...
>> Thinking about it, they fell silent upon the suggestion that the
>> Three should be used against Sauron, but is that any indication
>> that they knew where Narya was?
>
> They fell silent, in my opinion, because they were waiting for
> Elrond to speak -- and he did!

That itself would suggest that they knew Elrond was an authority on the
Three. But as someone else suggested, a look at the map or histories
would tell anyone who cared to look that Rivendell/Elrond and
Lorien/Galadriel had two of the Three, with but the third unknown to
the general public.


--
Cheers, ymt.
Re: Narya, The Red Ring in Danger [message #125932 ] So, 04 September 2005 22:45
onq  
Bajori wrote:
> "Michael O'Neill" <onq [at] bwahahaha.indigo.ie> wrote in message
> news:431824A5.2C634350 [at] bwahahaha.indigo.ie...
>
>>Anthony Gialluca wrote:
>>
>>>Hi all,
>>>
>>>I have been puzzled by something lately.
>>>
>>>I get the impression that the Elves thought of the three elven rings
>>>as being far more valuable then the other rings of power
>>>(The Seven and The Nine). In fact in SILM Celebrimbor gave up The
>>>Seven and The Nine, but preferred death before revealing where
>>>the Three where.
>>
>>They were. They were the most powerful but were not made for battle but
>>for warding off the effects of time and decay in Middle Earth, itself and
>>act repugnant to Eru's Plan for Arda.
>>
>>
>>>So the question is why did the elves allow Gandalf to place Narya,
>>>the Red Ring, in danger by taking it with him on the quest to
>>>destroy the Ruling Ring? Narya was almost lost with Gandalf in
>>>Moria, and if not for his resurrection it would (likely) have been
>>>lost. This seems inconsistant with their earlier history.
>>>In addition I would think the last thing they would want is to have
>>>any of the Three in close proximity to the Ruling Ring.
>
>
>
> The ring would have no use to Sauron himself. The whole idea behind them was
> that in wearing them, the bearer would fall under Sauron's sway, therefore
> they would need to be in the hands of anyone BUT Sauron.
>
>
>>I'm not sure that any of the Three would be of immediate use to Sauron.

<snip>

I said "no "immediate" use.

Any clever mind could put such rings to "good" use. Pardon the pun.

Even as bait in a trap for the unwary they would be very useful.

However, by their nature they were anathema to him.


He most likely would have needed a proxy to manipulate them.

M.
Re: Narya, The Red Ring in Danger [message #125933 ] So, 04 September 2005 22:54
onq  
Yuk Tang wrote:
> Michael O'Neill <onq [at] bwahahaha.indigo.ie> wrote in
> news:431824A5.2C634350 [at] bwahahaha.indigo.ie:
>
>>Anthony Gialluca wrote:
>>
>>>Hi all,
>>>
>>>I have been puzzled by something lately.
>>>
>>>I get the impression that the Elves thought of the three elven
>>>rings as being far more valuable then the other rings of power
>>>(The Seven and The Nine). In fact in SILM Celebrimbor gave up The
>>>Seven and The Nine, but preferred death before revealing where
>>>the Three where.
>>
>>They were. They were the most powerful but were not made for
>>battle but for warding off the effects of time and decay in Middle
>>Earth, itself and act repugnant to Eru's Plan for Arda.
>
>
> Does any material exist that describe what the Nine and Seven, or
> more probably the Sixteen, do? Given that 1: they were made by
> Noldor and 2: other Rings were described to have been essays in the
> craft, I'd have thought that all the major Rings, the Nine, the Seven
> and the Three, were all made for essentially the same overall
> purpose, as described above, with the Three being the most advanced
> of the lot.


IIRC "each had their proper gem" except for the One.

Eleves were fond of using gemstones, having been credited with creating
them. The silmarils after all were just giant gemstones. The ELessar was
a green gemstone.

However the correspondences and supposed magicks for each of the lesser
rings [i.e. NOT the Three, NOT the One] have not been described in any
text I have read AFAICR.

>>>So the question is why did the elves allow Gandalf to place
>>>Narya, the Red Ring, in danger by taking it with him on the quest
>>>to destroy the Ruling Ring? Narya was almost lost with Gandalf
>>>in Moria, and if not for his resurrection it would (likely) have
>>>been lost. This seems inconsistant with their earlier history.
>>>In addition I would think the last thing they would want is to
>>>have any of the Three in close proximity to the Ruling Ring.
>>
>>I'm not sure that any of the Three would be of immediate use to
>>Sauron. In that sense there may have been no risk whatsoever. It
>>might increase his personal power, but was still subject to the
>>One. With that lost he could still not recover his original native
>>strength. And of course, with the One destroyed, any works Sauron
>>might have started with any of the three would also fade away.
>
>
> I'd imagine that Lorien and Rivendell would still have some memory of
> their former inhabitants, long after the Third Age. At the time of
> LotR, it had been 4500+ years since Eregion was devastated in the War
> of the Rings, but Legolas could feel the ruins crying for the
> forgotten Noldor.

Indeed. Legolas' psychometry, weight-control, endurance, telescopic amd
x-ray vision deserve entire books in themselves. For a lowly Green Elf,
even a Royal One, he had some decent powers and abilities...

:-D

however if you are implying that a residue of what had been wrought with
the Tree might remain because of Legolas reading of echoes in stone in
Eregion. I cannot say. I will venture that in Eregion at that time, the
One still existed and the effects of the Three, therefore, still
existed. Afte the One passed away, the Three did likewise and we are
told all theri works would soon pass also.

>>>Is it possible that they did not know that Cirdan had given it
>>>to Gandalf? Seems unlikely, but I guess its possible.
>>
>>Very unlikely.
>
>
> Saruman, an outsider, managed to find this out, so presumably the
> other Ringholders would have known earlier.

You're forgetting the original line up. Saruman at the time of the LotR
was a traitor, but up until Gandalf denounced him and exosed his deceit
at teh Council of Elrond, he was the head of both the Istari and the
White Council. And when he arrived he was the head of the wizards.

> [snip some stuff showing why O'Neill is worth reading]
>
>

After seeing all those poor wretches in New Orleans reaping the bitter
harvest of Bush's New World Chaos, I needed a bit of escapist fantasy.

M.
Re: Narya, The Red Ring in Danger [message #125935 ] So, 04 September 2005 23:32
Yuk Tang  
Michael O'Neill <onq [at] bwahahahaindigo.ie> wrote in
news:paJSe.7498$R5.493 [at] news.indigo.ie:
> Yuk Tang wrote:
>> Michael O'Neill <onq [at] bwahahaha.indigo.ie> wrote in
>> news:431824A5.2C634350 [at] bwahahaha.indigo.ie:
>>
>> Does any material exist that describe what the Nine and Seven, or
>> more probably the Sixteen, do? Given that 1: they were made by
>> Noldor and 2: other Rings were described to have been essays in
>> the craft, I'd have thought that all the major Rings, the Nine,
>> the Seven and the Three, were all made for essentially the same
>> overall purpose, as described above, with the Three being the
>> most advanced of the lot.
>
> IIRC "each had their proper gem" except for the One.
>
> Eleves were fond of using gemstones, having been credited with
> creating them. The silmarils after all were just giant gemstones.
> The ELessar was a green gemstone.
>
> However the correspondences and supposed magicks for each of the
> lesser rings [i.e. NOT the Three, NOT the One] have not been
> described in any text I have read AFAICR.

I thought the Seven and the Nine were also major Rings, just not as
powerful as the Three. Only the majors had the power to prolong
life, according to Gandalf.


>>>>So the question is why did the elves allow Gandalf to place
>>>>Narya, the Red Ring, in danger by taking it with him on the
>>>>quest to destroy the Ruling Ring? Narya was almost lost with
>>>>Gandalf in Moria, and if not for his resurrection it would
>>>>(likely) have been lost. This seems inconsistant with their
>>>>earlier history. In addition I would think the last thing they
>>>>would want is to have any of the Three in close proximity to the
>>>>Ruling Ring.
>>>
>>>I'm not sure that any of the Three would be of immediate use to
>>>Sauron. In that sense there may have been no risk whatsoever. It
>>>might increase his personal power, but was still subject to the
>>>One. With that lost he could still not recover his original
>>>native strength. And of course, with the One destroyed, any works
>>>Sauron might have started with any of the three would also fade
>>>away.
>>
>> I'd imagine that Lorien and Rivendell would still have some
>> memory of their former inhabitants, long after the Third Age. At
>> the time of LotR, it had been 4500+ years since Eregion was
>> devastated in the War of the Rings, but Legolas could feel the
>> ruins crying for the forgotten Noldor.
>
> Indeed. Legolas' psychometry, weight-control, endurance,
> telescopic amd x-ray vision deserve entire books in themselves.
> For a lowly Green Elf, even a Royal One, he had some decent powers
> and abilities...
>
>:-D

This is where PJ got it absolutely right: Legolas was a cartoon
character, an elf with his underpants outside his trousers.


> however if you are implying that a residue of what had been
> wrought with
> the Tree might remain because of Legolas reading of echoes in
> stone in
> Eregion. I cannot say. I will venture that in Eregion at that
> time, the One still existed and the effects of the Three,
> therefore, still existed. Afte the One passed away, the Three did
> likewise and we are told all theri works would soon pass also.

But the Noldor had been building in Eregion for hundreds of years
before the appearance of Annatar. Also, how open and widespread was
the use of the Rings in beautifying their land?


>>>>Is it possible that they did not know that Cirdan had given it
>>>>to Gandalf? Seems unlikely, but I guess its possible.
>>>
>>>Very unlikely.
>>
>> Saruman, an outsider, managed to find this out, so presumably the
>> other Ringholders would have known earlier.
>
> You're forgetting the original line up. Saruman at the time of the
> LotR was a traitor, but up until Gandalf denounced him and exosed
> his deceit at teh Council of Elrond, he was the head of both the
> Istari and the White Council. And when he arrived he was the head
> of the wizards.

But he wasn't a current, or former Ringholder, and wasn't in the
loop. IIRC he found out about the Ring on his own account, the
others hadn't felt the need to tell him, and this severely annoyed
him and fed his jealousy and paranoia (Hunt for the Ring).


>> [snip some stuff showing why O'Neill is worth reading]
>
> After seeing all those poor wretches in New Orleans reaping the
> bitter harvest of Bush's New World Chaos, I needed a bit of
> escapist fantasy.

Perhaps Ty and Bajori may now see the use of the UN and other
international agencies, as they offer aid without preconditions. No-
one wants an international government that forces sovereign countries
to do what they'd rather not, but the UN and its associates are there
to coordinate international efforts in crises such as these. Of
course, third world countries are that much more enthusiastic about
these organisations as they are less able to cope on their own, and
thus disasters have a disproportionate effect on them. We Europeans
are going to need their help some day, so we should help others while
we can. Sort of like the NHS really, pay taxes but collect free at
point of use.


--
Cheers, ymt.
Re: Narya, The Red Ring in Danger [message #125939 ] Mo, 05 September 2005 00:26
Peter  
Anthony Gialluca wrote:
> I have been puzzled by something lately.
>
> I get the impression that the Elves thought of the three elven rings
> as being far more valuable then the other rings of power
> (The Seven and The Nine). In fact in SILM Celebrimbor gave up The
> Seven and The Nine, but preferred death before revealing where
> the Three where.

Without having read any of the other replies (I'll read them after I
post): The Three were "unpolluted" by Sauron. Their Power was still
dependent on the existence of the One Ring, but Sauron had limited (or
no) ability to detect or influence the Three and through them their
wielders.

> So the question is why did the elves allow Gandalf to place Narya,
> the Red Ring, in danger by taking it with him on the quest to
> destroy the Ruling Ring? Narya was almost lost with Gandalf in
> Moria, and if not for his resurrection it would (likely) have been
> lost. This seems inconsistant with their earlier history.
> In addition I would think the last thing they would want is to have
> any of the Three in close proximity to the Ruling Ring.

Because the Ring isn't a treasured relic. It's a tool. It's meant to be
used. It was thought that Gandalf would be able to put it to good use.
And I'd say it was the right kind of thinking.

> Is it possible that they did not know that Cirdan had given it
> to Gandalf? Seems unlikely, but I guess its possible.

Cirdan was himself an Elf, and was quite wise in giving Narya to Gandalf.

> I know they suspected that with the destruction of the Ruling Ring,
> the Three would become powerless, however that never stopped them

Some of them probably didn't suspect; they knew.

> from keeping them from Sauron at all costs in the past. In fact
> they separated the Three to keep them from all falling into his
> hands, yet they now allow Narya to travel in company with the
> Ruling Ring.
>
> Any Thoughts on this ?

The Three Rings were meant to be used.

Basically (although I could be wrong, here, not being a ring-expert) the
Three could do two kinds of things:

Preserve whole nations (e.g. Lothlorien or Rivendell), making them
partially or completely immune to the fading of beauty (which seems to
be a kind of natural law in Middle Earth).

Or be actively used to, among other things, inspire people to show
defiance against The Shadow.

Cirdan could have kept Narya and kept using it for the first purpose, to
preserve the Grey Havens. Or he could himself have gone out, and fought
The Shadow, using Narya to boost his own capabilities. Or he could have
passed the ring on to someone else, who'd go out and fight. And he did.

--
Peter Knutsen
sagatafl.org
Vorheriges Thema:Re: Question Re Faramir's Mother
Nächstes Thema:Tolkien: Frequently Asked Questions (1/2)
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