|
Sprinkler Systems
Uhaul move
Lawn care
Roses and trees
Ford Parts
Chrysler Parts
Lake Powell
New IPod Touch Apps
New IPhone Apps
IPhone Apps
IPad Information
IPad Apps
Android APPS
Android Games APPS
Android Systems
Android Tablets APPS and Beyond
Smartphone Apps
Smartphone Games Apps Repair and Tools
Tablet PC
Car Sharing Car Leasing
Tabler Pc
Fly Fishing
Toyota Cars
Vacation Rentals
Stock market
NYSE
SSE Stock
Freight & Shipping News
Gluten
Lactose
Gout
My Coupon Life
Campgrounds Check
Outdoor
Kitchen Design and Redoo
Bath Remodeling
Palm Springs
Las Vegas Vacation Tipps
Lake Powell Boating
Homes for lease
Electric and green Car Blog
Pearls and diamonds
Whatsapp and forget SMS Blog, What is Whatsapp App
Solar Panel Solar Energie Sun Power Blog
|
Fantasy » alt.fan.tolkien » Re: CotW: LOTR, Book 5, Chapter 4: "The Siege of Gondor"
| Re: CotW: LOTR, Book 5, Chapter 4: "The Siege of Gondor" [message #121907] |
Di, 30 August 2005 08:33 |
|
On 27 Dec 2004 02:49:26 GMT, AC <mightymartianca [at] hotmail.com> wrote:
>On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 09:17:09 GMT,
>Morgoth's Curse <morgothscurse2002 [at] nospamyahoo.com> wrote:
>> Apologies for the late post. Merry Christmas!!!
>
>No prob! Saved my a**!
>
><snip excellent summary>
Thank you, but I had planned for it to be at least three times as long
as it actually was. :)
>
>>
>> [3] Anybody else ever wonder how the tailor managed to craft a
>> uniform that fit perfectly without measuring Pippin? I also wonder
>> how often Pippin had to replace the livery and gear over the years and
>> whether he had to order it from Minas Tirith or from local merchants.
>>:)
>
>I would imagine it was probably for some princeling or another.
That is one possibility that I had not considered, but I tend to
discount it. Gondor had an exaggerated reverence for historical
artifacts. It is just my opinion, but I tend to believe that anything
from the ancient days (especially of the glory days of Gondor's
empire) would be reverently displayed in Gondor's equivalent of a
museum rather than recycled for daily use. Luckily for Bilbo and
Frodo, elves and dwarves were much more practical. :-)
>> [4] Whenever I try to imagine the darkness created by fumes from Mt.
>> Doom, I tend to think of the sky in the hours following the eruption
>> of Mt. Saint Helens in 1980. I was living thousands of miles away,
>> but I remember the television coverage of the event. It is rather
>> curious that Tolkien does not describe any ash settling on the city of
>> Minas Tirith. I don't know whether Tolkien ever saw a volcanic
>> eruption personally, but I do seem to remember that he visited Italy
>> at one time and possibly may have seen Mt. Etna or Mt. Vesuvius. I
>> checked Carpenter's biography of Tolkien, but did not find any
>> references. Can anybody else provide a reference?
>
>I imagine Tolkien would have read about eruptions like Vesuvius and
>Krakatoa.
He certainly may have read about it, but that is quite different from
actually experiencing it. I have never experienced an eruption myself
and hence cannot say how accurate Tolkien's description may be. I
know that, in general terms, his description could be correct, but he
did capture the true essence of the awe and fear associated with an
eruption? The more I ponder the matter, the more inclined I am to
think that the Darkness was as much a manifestation of Sauron's power
as it was of soot and smoke from Mt. Doom.
>> [7] This point has been debated before, but it is worth mentioning
>> again. "...but it seemed to Pippin that he raised his hand, and from
>> it a shaft of white light stabbed upward." Was this an example of
>> Narya [the Ring that Gandalf bore] in action or just another example
>> of the knowledge acquired by Gandalf during his studies of fire and
>> explosives? It is interesting to note that there is no mention of
>> Gandalf's staff in this passage.
>
>I think it's probably Gandalf's knowledge of pyrotechnics. To see Narya in
>action, I think you have to look at the healing of Theoden.
>
>>
>> [10] It is interesting to compare Denethor's behavior toward both
>> Pippin & Faramir with that of Aragorn. I can't imagine Denethor
>> waiting patiently while two hobbits chatted about the trivial affairs
>> of the Shire as Strider did in Rivendell. No matter how many times I
>> read LOTR, I am still amazed at Tolkien's ability to subtly illuminate
>> the personalities of even minor characters.
>
>As I've said before, Aragorn is the traditional, mythical king; gracious,
>kindly and genuinely concerned for his lessers. Denethor is not that sort
>of a ruler, though I'm not necessarily saying he's a bad leader, just more
>like the ones I expect one would meet.
>
>>
>> [11] Why did Denethor abruptly back down? Did he simply realize
>> that he had nothing to gain from a confrontation or did Gandalf subtly
>> influence his mood somehow? Did the presence of Faramir and Pippin
>> make any difference?
>
>No, I think he recognized Gandalf's greater innate power.
A man as perceptive and subtle as Denethor must have been aware of
that from their earliest encounter. Perhaps this is a case where
Denethor knew that Gandalf had the greater power but did not actually
_comprehend_ it until that moment. I have long wondered how Denethor
felt addressing a being who had roamed Middle-earth before Gondor or
even Arnor had fallen, who could remember Osiligiath in all of its
glory and had seen the White Tree in flower. It may not have exactly
been intimidating, but it was certainly disquieting.
>
>>
>> [12] Was Denethor's military strategy right or wrong? Should Faramir
>> have kept his forces within the walls of Minas Tirith and reserved his
>> strength for a possible counterattack or was it wiser to contest the
>> fields of the Pelennor with the enemy?
>
>Let's be blunt. The situation for Minas Tirith was grim, and its salvation
>was ultimately from a direction unexpected. Denethor was obviously planning
>for a siege.
If so, his military judgment must be questioned. Since Faramir could
only hinder the enemy's crossing of the River, Denethor threw away
valuable resources on a symbolic, defiant gesture.
>
>>
>> [13] 'The hosts of Morgul, taken at unawares in wild career, broke,
>> scattering like sparks in a gale.' Does the use of "career" in this
>> context refer to a disorganized charge? Why does Tolkien use "career"
>> instead of the term "careen?"
>
>I'll give a nod to our language experts. I'm uncertain of the usage.
>
>>
>> [14] Am I the only one who loved Prince Imrahil's none-too-subtle
>> rebuke of his liege? "Your son has returned, lord, after great
>> deeds!" :)
>
>Imrahil is another great character that we sadly see too little of.
Agreed. You have identified Aragorn as the traditional, mythical
king. Which archetype do you associate with Imrahil?
>
>> [18] I always wondered how "those who bore the token of the tombs and
>> tended the houses of the dead" were chosen for that duty.
>
>Quite possibly inherited. Gondor, and the Numenoreans in general, seemed to
>be quite concerned with lineage.
Yes, it was an obsession even among those who should have known
better. I was just wondering what would happen if a house were to
perish utterly (as might occur during The Great Plague, for example.)
Would the King or the Steward appoint a new house or would there be
alternate families that would be entitled to assume the position? Was
it a full-time job or were the tombs only maintained prior to an
important ceremony?
>> [19] Have you ever visited any place that reminded you of the Silent
>> Street?
>
>Nothing quite like that.
>
>> [21] 'Then the Black Captain rose in his stirrups and cried aloud in
>> a dreadful voice, speaking in some forgotten tongue words of power and
>> terror to rend both heart and stone." Is that not a perfect
>> description of the Black Speech? :)
>
>And of the power of the Witch King. He was one bad dude.
>
>> [23] '...Shadowfax who alone among the free horses of the earth
>> endured the terror, unmoving, steadfast as a graven image in Rath
>> Dinen.' What is the significance of this passage? Why is it so
>> important that only Shadowfax can endure the terror of the Nazgul? (I
>> also appreciate this sentence unconsciously reminds us of the tragedy
>> that is unfolding in the Silent Street.)
>
>I suppose it points out that Shadowfax is the last of his kind, another
>example of the fading away of the older, mythical ages of Middle Earth.
Since virtually everything in Middle-earth had diminished by the Third
Age, it makes one wonder how much more swifter or stronger or
intelligent the horses that the Noldor brought to Middle-earth were.
Morgoth's Curse
|
|
|
| Re: CotW: LOTR, Book 5, Chapter 4: "The Siege of Gondor" [message #121921 ] |
Di, 30 August 2005 13:08 |
|
Morgoth's Curse wrote:
> On 27 Dec 2004 02:49:26 GMT, AC <mightymartianca [at] hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>>On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 09:17:09 GMT,
>>Morgoth's Curse <morgothscurse2002 [at] nospamyahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>>Apologies for the late post. Merry Christmas!!!
>>
>>No prob! Saved my a**!
>>
>><snip excellent summary>
>
>
> Thank you, but I had planned for it to be at least three times as long
> as it actually was. :)
>
>>>[3] Anybody else ever wonder how the tailor managed to craft a
>>>uniform that fit perfectly without measuring Pippin? I also wonder
>>>how often Pippin had to replace the livery and gear over the years and
>>>whether he had to order it from Minas Tirith or from local merchants.
>>>:)
>>
>>I would imagine it was probably for some princeling or another.
>
>
> That is one possibility that I had not considered, but I tend to
> discount it. Gondor had an exaggerated reverence for historical
> artifacts. It is just my opinion, but I tend to believe that anything
> from the ancient days (especially of the glory days of Gondor's
> empire) would be reverently displayed in Gondor's equivalent of a
> museum rather than recycled for daily use. Luckily for Bilbo and
> Frodo, elves and dwarves were much more practical. :-)
>
>
>>>[4] Whenever I try to imagine the darkness created by fumes from Mt.
>>>Doom, I tend to think of the sky in the hours following the eruption
>>>of Mt. Saint Helens in 1980. I was living thousands of miles away,
>>>but I remember the television coverage of the event. It is rather
>>>curious that Tolkien does not describe any ash settling on the city of
>>>Minas Tirith. I don't know whether Tolkien ever saw a volcanic
>>>eruption personally, but I do seem to remember that he visited Italy
>>>at one time and possibly may have seen Mt. Etna or Mt. Vesuvius. I
>>>checked Carpenter's biography of Tolkien, but did not find any
>>>references. Can anybody else provide a reference?
>>
>>I imagine Tolkien would have read about eruptions like Vesuvius and
>>Krakatoa.
>
>
> He certainly may have read about it, but that is quite different from
> actually experiencing it. I have never experienced an eruption myself
> and hence cannot say how accurate Tolkien's description may be. I
> know that, in general terms, his description could be correct, but he
> did capture the true essence of the awe and fear associated with an
> eruption? The more I ponder the matter, the more inclined I am to
> think that the Darkness was as much a manifestation of Sauron's power
> as it was of soot and smoke from Mt. Doom.
>
>
>>>[7] This point has been debated before, but it is worth mentioning
>>>again. "...but it seemed to Pippin that he raised his hand, and from
>>>it a shaft of white light stabbed upward." Was this an example of
>>>Narya [the Ring that Gandalf bore] in action or just another example
>>>of the knowledge acquired by Gandalf during his studies of fire and
>>>explosives? It is interesting to note that there is no mention of
>>>Gandalf's staff in this passage.
>>
>>I think it's probably Gandalf's knowledge of pyrotechnics. To see Narya in
>>action, I think you have to look at the healing of Theoden.
>>
>>
>>>[10] It is interesting to compare Denethor's behavior toward both
>>>Pippin & Faramir with that of Aragorn. I can't imagine Denethor
>>>waiting patiently while two hobbits chatted about the trivial affairs
>>>of the Shire as Strider did in Rivendell. No matter how many times I
>>>read LOTR, I am still amazed at Tolkien's ability to subtly illuminate
>>>the personalities of even minor characters.
>>
>>As I've said before, Aragorn is the traditional, mythical king; gracious,
>>kindly and genuinely concerned for his lessers. Denethor is not that sort
>>of a ruler, though I'm not necessarily saying he's a bad leader, just more
>>like the ones I expect one would meet.
>>
>>
>>>[11] Why did Denethor abruptly back down? Did he simply realize
>>>that he had nothing to gain from a confrontation or did Gandalf subtly
>>>influence his mood somehow? Did the presence of Faramir and Pippin
>>>make any difference?
>>
>>No, I think he recognized Gandalf's greater innate power.
>
>
> A man as perceptive and subtle as Denethor must have been aware of
> that from their earliest encounter. Perhaps this is a case where
> Denethor knew that Gandalf had the greater power but did not actually
> _comprehend_ it until that moment. I have long wondered how Denethor
> felt addressing a being who had roamed Middle-earth before Gondor or
> even Arnor had fallen, who could remember Osiligiath in all of its
> glory and had seen the White Tree in flower. It may not have exactly
> been intimidating, but it was certainly disquieting.
>
>>>[12] Was Denethor's military strategy right or wrong? Should Faramir
>>>have kept his forces within the walls of Minas Tirith and reserved his
>>>strength for a possible counterattack or was it wiser to contest the
>>>fields of the Pelennor with the enemy?
>>
>>Let's be blunt. The situation for Minas Tirith was grim, and its salvation
>>was ultimately from a direction unexpected. Denethor was obviously planning
>>for a siege.
>
>
> If so, his military judgment must be questioned. Since Faramir could
> only hinder the enemy's crossing of the River, Denethor threw away
> valuable resources on a symbolic, defiant gesture.
>
I think Denethor was trying to buy time for help to arrive from Rohan or
even South Gondor (assuming that they defeated the Corsairs). The River
was an obvious line to hold as long as possible.
>>>[13] 'The hosts of Morgul, taken at unawares in wild career, broke,
>>>scattering like sparks in a gale.' Does the use of "career" in this
>>>context refer to a disorganized charge? Why does Tolkien use "career"
>>>instead of the term "careen?"
>>
>>I'll give a nod to our language experts. I'm uncertain of the usage.
>>
>>
>>>[14] Am I the only one who loved Prince Imrahil's none-too-subtle
>>>rebuke of his liege? "Your son has returned, lord, after great
>>>deeds!" :)
>>
>>Imrahil is another great character that we sadly see too little of.
>
>
> Agreed. You have identified Aragorn as the traditional, mythical
> king. Which archetype do you associate with Imrahil?
>
>>>[18] I always wondered how "those who bore the token of the tombs and
>>>tended the houses of the dead" were chosen for that duty.
>>
>>Quite possibly inherited. Gondor, and the Numenoreans in general, seemed to
>>be quite concerned with lineage.
>
>
> Yes, it was an obsession even among those who should have known
> better. I was just wondering what would happen if a house were to
> perish utterly (as might occur during The Great Plague, for example.)
> Would the King or the Steward appoint a new house or would there be
> alternate families that would be entitled to assume the position? Was
> it a full-time job or were the tombs only maintained prior to an
> important ceremony?
>
>
>>>[19] Have you ever visited any place that reminded you of the Silent
>>>Street?
>>
>>Nothing quite like that.
>>
>>
>>>[21] 'Then the Black Captain rose in his stirrups and cried aloud in
>>>a dreadful voice, speaking in some forgotten tongue words of power and
>>>terror to rend both heart and stone." Is that not a perfect
>>>description of the Black Speech? :)
>>
>>And of the power of the Witch King. He was one bad dude.
>>
>>
>>>[23] '...Shadowfax who alone among the free horses of the earth
>>>endured the terror, unmoving, steadfast as a graven image in Rath
>>>Dinen.' What is the significance of this passage? Why is it so
>>>important that only Shadowfax can endure the terror of the Nazgul? (I
>>>also appreciate this sentence unconsciously reminds us of the tragedy
>>>that is unfolding in the Silent Street.)
>>
>>I suppose it points out that Shadowfax is the last of his kind, another
>>example of the fading away of the older, mythical ages of Middle Earth.
>
>
> Since virtually everything in Middle-earth had diminished by the Third
> Age, it makes one wonder how much more swifter or stronger or
> intelligent the horses that the Noldor brought to Middle-earth were.
>
> Morgoth's Curse
|
|
|
| Re: CotW: LOTR, Book 5, Chapter 4: "The Siege of Gondor" [message #121966 ] |
Mi, 31 August 2005 02:23 |
|
Morgoth's Curse <morgothscurse2002 [at] nospamyahoo.com> wrote:
> AC <mightymartianca [at] hotmail.com> wrote:
<snip>
>> I suppose it points out that Shadowfax is the last of his kind,
>> another example of the fading away of the older, mythical ages of
>> Middle Earth.
>
> Since virtually everything in Middle-earth had diminished by the Third
> Age, it makes one wonder how much more swifter or stronger or
> intelligent the horses that the Noldor brought to Middle-earth were.
I prefer to think that Shadowfax, like Denthor, Aragorn and Faramir, was
a throwback, an example of the "blood running true" and so it would seem
that Shadowfax had almost been "foaled in the morning of the world". To
be sure, the past Golden Age must retain this air of untouchable
greatness, but we also want a feeling that the heros have come down to
us out of legend, and are walking the green earth beside us, showing us
both the greatness of the past, and the diminished state of the present
day.
So in that sense, Shadowfax is not an example of the fading away of the
older ages, but rather he is a last rallying cry, and a last and
glorious demonstration of the powers of old.
Christopher
--
---
Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard
|
|
|
Gehe zu:
aktuelle Zeit: Mi Mai 23 21:54:18 CEST 2012
Insgesamt benötigte Zeit, um die Seite zu erzeugen: 0,03093 Sekunden |
