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Fantasy » alt.fan.tolkien » Good and Evil in Tolkien's worlds
Good and Evil in Tolkien's worlds [message #119969] Sa, 27 August 2005 09:05
Alabaster  
How would you characterize good and evil in Tolkien's world and where
would you put yourself in terms of personal affinity?

In the early days of my familiarity with it all I was enamoured of the
evil side. I was interested in all of the dark secrets of evil beings
as well as their names and lineages. (Incidentally this was also how I
related to Star Wars at first.)

Over time I began to reconsider things and then came to identify with
good side of the Tolkien mythos.

In my experience, Tolkien's archetype of good and evil remains a
salient point of discussion in serious spiritual debates, if not simply
for the popular power of Tolkien's world.

How would describe what Tolkien takes to be good and evil and where do
you see yourself within that vision?

Regards,


Alabaster
Re: Good and Evil in Tolkien's worlds [message #119972 ] Sa, 27 August 2005 12:32
Morgan  
Thats difficult, the dark wizards get to get cool mysterious towers but
the good hobbits have such interesting houses. Hmmm. They are sort of
both appealing aren't they. Perhaps you could take it in shifts, loll
about your dark tower in the morning and then pop down to the hobbit
house for a quick smoke on one of those long pipes.

I think Tolkiens vison of good/evil has seriously influenced the world.
Now that videogames online are so big you have to have noticed how
they attempt their best to make Tolkienseque worlds. Its amazing that a
guy who wrote a book about 100 years ago managed to change the new
entertainment mediums today.

As for how I actually see myself in his vision. I really don't know,
totally unsure, will have to see which has the best dental plan and so
on. But it would be a hard choice eitherway.
Re: Good and Evil in Tolkien's worlds [message #119979 ] Sa, 27 August 2005 14:27
zip  
"Alabaster" <alabastermushroom [at] yahoo.com> wrote...

> How would you characterize good and evil in Tolkien's world...

Highly textured.

> and where would you put yourself in terms of personal affinity?

Gollum.

-Paul.
Sv: Good and Evil in Tolkien's worlds [message #120006 ] Sa, 27 August 2005 23:12
Kristian Damm Jensen  
Morgan wrote:

> Its
> amazing that a guy who wrote a book about 100 years ago managed to
> change the new entertainment mediums today.

Come on! A little exageration is one thing, but to be off by a factor of two
is ridiculous, especially in this forum.

Kristian

--
"Sex is more fun than logic. One cannot prove this, but it is, in the
same way that Mount Everest is and Alma Cogan isn't." The Album of the
Soundtrack of the Trailer of the Film of Monty Python and the Holy
Grail.
Re: Sv: Good and Evil in Tolkien's worlds [message #120008 ] So, 28 August 2005 00:24
Yuk Tang  
"Kristian Damm Jensen" <kristiandammNO [at] SPAMyahoo.dk> wrote in
news:deqokl$47f$1 [at] newsbin.cybercity.dk:
> Morgan wrote:
>
>> Its
>> amazing that a guy who wrote a book about 100 years ago managed
>> to change the new entertainment mediums today.
>
> Come on! A little exageration is one thing, but to be off by a
> factor of two is ridiculous, especially in this forum.

JRR Tolkien contributed to the Oxford English Dictionary, which has had
a significant influence on the use of the English language, so Morgan
isn't too far off after all. Although how the definition of 'walrus'
directly changed the new entertainment mediums today may be a tad more
obscure.


--
Cheers, ymt.
Sv: Good and Evil in Tolkien's worlds [message #120011 ] Sa, 27 August 2005 23:22
Kristian Damm Jensen  
Alabaster wrote:
> How would you characterize good and evil in Tolkien's world and where
> would you put yourself in terms of personal affinity?
>
> In the early days of my familiarity with it all I was enamoured of the
> evil side. I was interested in all of the dark secrets of evil beings
> as well as their names and lineages. (Incidentally this was also how I
> related to Star Wars at first.)

Evil are indeed more interesting as far as stories goes. Without evil,
wherewould the good stories start? And when did you last see a good
protagomist, whose personality was more complecs than that of the evil
adversary?

> Over time I began to reconsider things and then came to identify with
> good side of the Tolkien mythos.
>
> In my experience, Tolkien's archetype of good and evil remains a
> salient point of discussion in serious spiritual debates, if not
> simply for the popular power of Tolkien's world.
>
> How would describe what Tolkien takes to be good and evil and where do
> you see yourself within that vision?

It being close to midnight, I won't start an essay.But I think to Tolkien is
in the willful controlling of others. Notice how the truly wise and noble
people in LOTR never, ever try to control or order others. They may try to
influence them, but never tell them what to think. Most notably is Gandalf
and Frodo. From a certain point onwards, Sam gets this attitude too.

Me, I am like Faramir.Enamoured by wisdom. Even more by true wisdom, a far
higher thing. But given the challenge, I'd pick up the sword at any time.

--
"Sex is more fun than logic. One cannot prove this, but it is, in the
same way that Mount Everest is and Alma Cogan isn't." The Album of the
Soundtrack of the Trailer of the Film of Monty Python and the Holy
Grail.
Re: Good and Evil in Tolkien's worlds [message #120016 ] So, 28 August 2005 01:14
Morgan  
I meant to say that he *lived* a hundred years ago or so, sorry.
Do you doubt that tolkien has had an impact on entertainment?
He did, in both literature and videogames (and recently films, i think
we can expect to see more fantasy films, yes?)
He invented the notions of fantasy. Before him there was just
shakespeares Midsummernights Dream and such like airy fairy stuff
nothing like fantasy. You have to go way back into history, thousands
of years to the old tales, to ancient folklore, to beowulf and to the
red branch knights, to ~~~~~ and the likes of King Arthur to get
anything like fantasy. Now fantasy books, videogames sell by the
truckload.
Do you think this would have occured but for tolkien? He, IMO began a
revival of the very old ideas in our Northern Europe mythology/folklore
that may have not happened at all. Can you find one book before
tolkien that isn't a collection of the very old folklore, that could be
described as what we call fantasy today?
Re: Good and Evil in Tolkien's worlds [message #120017 ] So, 28 August 2005 01:17
Morgan  
5. Morgan Aug 28, 12:14 am show options
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: "Morgan" <southcle... [at] O2mail.ie> - Find messages by this author
Date: 27 Aug 2005 16:14:49 -0700
Local: Sun, Aug 28 2005 12:14 am
Subject: Re: Good and Evil in Tolkien's worlds
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I meant to say that he *lived* a hundred years ago or so, sorry.
Do you doubt that tolkien has had an impact on entertainment?
He did, in both literature and videogames (and recently films, i think
we can expect to see more fantasy films, yes?)
He invented the notions of fantasy. Before him there was just
shakespeares Midsummernights Dream and such like airy fairy stuff
nothing like fantasy. You have to go way back into history, thousands
of years to the old tales, to ancient folklore, to beowulf and to the
red branch knights, to Balor and the likes of King Arthur to get
anything like fantasy. Now fantasy books, videogames sell by the
truckload.
Do you think this would have occured but for tolkien? He, IMO began a
revival of the very old ideas in our Northern Europe mythology/folklore
that may have not happened at all. Can you find one book before
tolkien that isn't a collection of the very old folklore, that could be
described as what we call fantasy today?
Re: Good and Evil in Tolkien's worlds [message #120018 ] So, 28 August 2005 01:22
Morgan  
I meant to say that he *lived* a hundred years ago or so, sorry. :(
Do you doubt that tolkien has had an impact on entertainment?
He did, in both literature and videogames (and recently films, i think
we can expect to see more fantasy films, yes?)
He invented the notions of fantasy. Before him there was just
shakespeares Midsummernights Dream and such like airy fairy stuff,
nothing like fantasy. You have to go way back into history, thousands
of years to the old tales, to ancient folklore, to beowulf and to the
red branch knights, to Balor and the likes of King Arthur to get
anything like fantasy. Now fantasy books, videogames sell by the
truckload.
Do you think this would have occured but for tolkien? He, IMO began a
revival of the very old ideas in our Northern Europe mythology/folklore
that may have not happened at all. Can you find one book before
tolkien that isn't a collection of the very old folklore, that could be
described as what we call fantasy today? (NOT fairytale, thats
completely different, i think you'll agree) If you can it would be a
rare thing, and I will take off my hat to you.
Re: Sv: Good and Evil in Tolkien's worlds [message #120021 ] So, 28 August 2005 02:35
the softrat  
On Sat, 27 Aug 2005 23:12:06 +0200, "Kristian Damm Jensen"
<kristiandammNO [at] SPAMyahoo.dk> wrote:
>
>Come on! A little exageration is one thing, but to be off by a factor of two
>is ridiculous, especially in this forum.
>
Morgan appears to be 'slightly light in the loafers'.

It's like listening to your hairdresser pontificate.

Not that I have anything against hairdressers ......

.....as hairdressers ....

the softrat
Sometimes I get so tired of the taste of my own toes.
mailto:softrat [at] pobox.com
--
My veal cutlet tried to beat the shit out of my cup of coffee...
the coffee just wasn't strong enough to defend himself.
(Tom Waits)
Sv: Good and Evil in Tolkien's worlds [message #120046 ] So, 28 August 2005 22:39
Kristian Damm Jensen  
Morgan wrote:
> I meant to say that he *lived* a hundred years ago or so, sorry.

This was the point I was trying to make. I have no doubts what so ever about
Tolkiens great influences.

<snip>

Kristian

--
"Sex is more fun than logic. One cannot prove this, but it is, in the
same way that Mount Everest is and Alma Cogan isn't." The Album of the
Soundtrack of the Trailer of the Film of Monty Python and the Holy
Grail.
Re: Sv: Good and Evil in Tolkien's worlds [message #120049 ] So, 28 August 2005 23:21
zip  
"Yuk Tang" <jim.laker2 [at] yahoo.com> wrote...

> Although how the definition of 'walrus' directly changed the new
> entertainment mediums today may be a tad more obscure.

Goo goo g' joob

-Paul.
Re: Sv: Good and Evil in Tolkien's worlds [message #121860 ] Mo, 29 August 2005 19:10
Christopher Kreuzer  
Yuk Tang <jim.laker2 [at] yahoo.com> wrote:
> "Kristian Damm Jensen" <kristiandammNO [at] SPAMyahoo.dk> wrote in
> news:deqokl$47f$1 [at] newsbin.cybercity.dk:
>> Morgan wrote:
>>
>>> Its amazing that a guy who wrote a book about 100 years ago managed
>>> to change the new entertainment mediums today.
>>
>> Come on! A little exageration is one thing, but to be off by a
>> factor of two is ridiculous, especially in this forum.

How many factors off are people in the Balrog Wings debate?
For a factor of two, can a Balrog have ONE wing? :-)

> JRR Tolkien contributed to the Oxford English Dictionary, which has
> had a significant influence on the use of the English language, so
> Morgan isn't too far off after all. Although how the definition of
> 'walrus' directly changed the new entertainment mediums today may be
> a tad more obscure.

LOL!

Though I'd say Morgan was still a bit far off. Tolkien was only 13 years
old in 1905. It wasn't until after WWI, in about 1918-19 (some 14 years
later), that he worked with the OED.
Re: Good and Evil in Tolkien's worlds [message #121863 ] Mo, 29 August 2005 19:29
Alabaster  
Zip wrote:
> "Alabaster" <alabastermushroom [at] yahoo.com> wrote...
>
> > How would you characterize good and evil in Tolkien's world...
>
> Highly textured.
>
> > and where would you put yourself in terms of personal affinity?
>
> Gollum.
>
> -Paul.


Highly textured and revealing indeed, Paul.


Gollum, what a study. What an incredibly subtle comment you made by
selecting Gollum as a focus for the consideration of good and evil in
Tolkien's works, Paul. Hmmm, surely Gollum was a victim, but he was
also a nasty bugger.

I wonder, was Gollum Tolkien's Anakin Skywalker? Or would that rather
be the Nazgul? The Nazgul I suppose.

What is your take on Gollum from the standpoint of good and evil, Paul?

Again interesting and thoughtful remarks.


Regards,


Alabaster
Re: Sv: Good and Evil in Tolkien's worlds [message #121866 ] Mo, 29 August 2005 19:41
Alabaster  
Kristian Damm Jensen wrote:

> Evil are indeed more interesting as far as stories goes. Without evil,
> wherewould the good stories start? And when did you last see a good
> protagomist, whose personality was more complecs than that of the evil
> adversary?

Yes, they say that evil is more interesting. I'm not convinced of this
on balance though. And I would also challenge the necessity of evil
for the reality of good. They say we need both these things to have
our world, but again I'm not convinced. Do you really need to witness
ugliness on a regular basis to appreciate beauty? Don't you naturally
appreciate beauty and that which pleases you automatically and of the
moment? And as far as complexity...yes, I would definitely say that
evil by design must be more complex. Just consider the demands of
lying and deception, you have more than just your true self to manage,
you have a series of deliberate false impressions. Is that better,
more desirable? I'm not at all sure of it.

> ...I think to Tolkien is
> in the willful controlling of others. Notice how the truly wise and noble
> people in LOTR never, ever try to control or order others. They may try to
> influence them, but never tell them what to think. Most notably is Gandalf
> and Frodo. From a certain point onwards, Sam gets this attitude too.

I think that is a very astute observation, Kristian. Freedom of
consciousness, freedom of the soul seems very important to the Wise in
Tolkien's world. It seems to me to be related to more old-fashioned
views of civil behavior and rudimentary respect. It may take on a
deeper, perhaps even holy dimension for Tolkien...it becomes a sin to
steal another's judgement from them or to presume to act on their
behalf. In many ways this is an unspoken hallmark of political
Liberalism in my judgement.

> Me, I am like Faramir.Enamoured by wisdom. Even more by true wisdom, a far
> higher thing. But given the challenge, I'd pick up the sword at any time.

An unwillingness or inability to pick up the sword when faced by a
similar-wielding opponent is a dire situation indeed.


Regards,


Alabaster
Re: Sv: Good and Evil in Tolkien's worlds [message #121873 ] Mo, 29 August 2005 20:17
Alabaster  
Hello,

Can you think of any quotations from the text of The Silmarillion, The
Hobbit or the Lord of the Rings which very clearly embodies Tolkien's
views on Good and Evil? I mean to do a thorough study of this soon,
but I wonder if anything comes to people's minds just off the cuff.

Something I recollect Aragorn once saying in response to a question
from the Hobbits about whether or not Trolls built a place they were
visiting was, "Trolls don't build"...or something to that effect.

Can you think of any direct quotations from the text which embody or
define Good and Evil?


Best,


Alabaster
Re: Good and Evil in Tolkien's worlds [message #121894 ] Di, 30 August 2005 02:25
donnellaf  
Morgan wrote:
> I meant to say that he *lived* a hundred years ago or so, sorry. :(
> Do you doubt that tolkien has had an impact on entertainment?
> He did, in both literature and videogames (and recently films, i think
> we can expect to see more fantasy films, yes?)
> He invented the notions of fantasy. Before him there was just
> shakespeares Midsummernights Dream and such like airy fairy stuff,
> nothing like fantasy. You have to go way back into history, thousands
> of years to the old tales, to ancient folklore, to beowulf and to the
> red branch knights, to Balor and the likes of King Arthur to get
> anything like fantasy. Now fantasy books, videogames sell by the
> truckload.
> Do you think this would have occured but for tolkien? He, IMO began a
> revival of the very old ideas in our Northern Europe mythology/folklore
> that may have not happened at all. Can you find one book before
> tolkien that isn't a collection of the very old folklore, that could be
> described as what we call fantasy today?

What about Howard's Conan (and his other hacky slashy heroes)? Fritz
Leiber's Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser? Clark Ashton Smith? H. P.
Lovecraft? Ray Bradbury? The pulp magazine Weird Tales was founded in
1923, and helped kick-off the modern fantasy genre (maybe kick-off
isn't the right word since it is an outlet that grew from a need of the
newly burgeoning genre). F&SF started publishing in 1949 (after the
Hobbit, but still...), and there were several other
not-quite-so-long-lived fantasy/weird magazines before that. And
before all of the above were the likes of Edgar Rice Burroughs, H. G.
Wells, Edgar Allen Poe, Lewis Carrol, etc. Admittedly, a lot of early
fantasy was closely akin to modern horror, so if you are defining
"fantasy today" as deliberate knock-offs of Tolkien, then you obviously
win your point, but a lot of that stuff sucks, so I hope you are not
limiting the genre to that. Fantasy was already a self-aware literary
movement by the time Tolkien published. It was still a young literary
movement and he had a profound effect on its direction, but to make
such a bold statement that the above-named authors are not fantasy, or
that they are merely collectors of very old folklore, or to dismiss
their work as "airy fairy stuff, nothing like fantasy" does a great
disservice to some remarkable tales.

None of this is to doubt Tolkien's influence, or his greatness, or
anything like that. I don't know whether he was conversant with the
nascent fantasy literature when he published TH and LOTR, but it was
there and it was shaping the genre.

Farewell,
Andy
Re: Sv: Good and Evil in Tolkien's worlds [message #121912 ] Di, 30 August 2005 08:33
morgothscurse2002  
On Sat, 27 Aug 2005 17:35:14 -0700, the softrat <softrat [at] pobox.com>
wrote:

>On Sat, 27 Aug 2005 23:12:06 +0200, "Kristian Damm Jensen"
><kristiandammNO [at] SPAMyahoo.dk> wrote:
>>
>>Come on! A little exageration is one thing, but to be off by a factor of two
>>is ridiculous, especially in this forum.
>>
>Morgan appears to be 'slightly light in the loafers'.
>
>It's like listening to your hairdresser pontificate.
>
>Not that I have anything against hairdressers ......
>
>....as hairdressers ....

Pssst, Softrat...I realize it is a bit late in life to inform you of
this, but only effeminate "girly men" and Eurotrash go to hairdressers
for a haircut. REAL men go to barbers. ^__^

Morgoth's Curse
Re: Sv: Good and Evil in Tolkien's worlds [message #121917 ] Di, 30 August 2005 11:28
zip  
"Morgoth's Curse" <morgothscurse2002 [at] nospamyahoo.com> wrote...

> Pssst, Softrat...I realize it is a bit late in life to inform you of
> this, but only effeminate "girly men" and Eurotrash go to hairdressers
> for a haircut. REAL men go to barbers. ^__^

....Or get drunk and use a blade.

-Paul.
Re: Good and Evil in Tolkien's worlds [message #121919 ] Di, 30 August 2005 10:52
the softrat  
On 29 Aug 2005 17:25:00 -0700, "Andrew F. Donnell"
<donnellaf [at] gmail.com> wrote:

In re: fantasy

> It was still a young literary movement

Nonsense. It goes back to the beginning of written texts: The Epic of
Gilgamesh, The Iliad, The Odyssey, Genesis, Exodus, the works of
Lucian of Samosota, ....

Actually it is the oldest genre.

the softrat
Sometimes I get so tired of the taste of my own toes.
mailto:softrat [at] pobox.com
--
Software isn't released. It's allowed to escape.
Re: Good and Evil in Tolkien's worlds [message #121922 ] Di, 30 August 2005 14:04
donnellaf  
the softrat wrote:
> On 29 Aug 2005 17:25:00 -0700, "Andrew F. Donnell"
> <donnellaf [at] gmail.com> wrote:
>
> In re: fantasy
>
> > It was still a young literary movement
>
> Nonsense. It goes back to the beginning of written texts: The Epic of
> Gilgamesh, The Iliad, The Odyssey, Genesis, Exodus, the works of
> Lucian of Samosota, ....
>
> Actually it is the oldest genre.

Well we were talking about modern fantasy, which Morgan attributed
solely to Tolkien. He/she/it (sorry I haven't been hanging around here
too much lately, so I don't know what a Morgan is) recognized the
earlier texts but supposed that the genre had completely disappeared
for hundreds of years until Tolkien reinvented it. And anyway, the
classical authors were more or less (depending on who and what and
when) writing in their contemporary milieu, which to those of us in
today's times has become a standard fantasy setting. If they went into
the local Mesopotamian/Grecian/Hebrew/etc Barnes and Noble, would they
find their work in the fantasy section, or the fiction section, or the
history section? I'd say that the fantasy genre, as specifically "the
fantasy genre," is relatively young, but with roots that go back to
antiquity.

Farewell,
Andy
Re: Good and Evil in Tolkien's worlds [message #121926 ] Di, 30 August 2005 14:50
Derek Broughton  
Andrew F. Donnell wrote:

> Morgan wrote:
>> I meant to say that he *lived* a hundred years ago or so, sorry. :(
>> Do you doubt that tolkien has had an impact on entertainment?

Not a bit. I was too avid a D&D'er back in university, and that (despite
cleansing the rules of any hint of Tolkien) was heavily influenced.

>> He invented the notions of fantasy. Before him there was just
>> shakespeares Midsummernights Dream and such like airy fairy stuff,
>> nothing like fantasy.

Hardly...You're just not well read.

>> You have to go way back into history, thousands
>> of years to the old tales, to ancient folklore, to beowulf and to the

Hmmm. You're exaggerating the timeline again. Beowulf is more than a
thousand, but definitely _not_ thousands.

>> red branch knights, to Balor and the likes of King Arthur to get
>> anything like fantasy.

Lord Dunsany. Slightly pre-Tolkien.

>> Do you think this would have occured but for tolkien? He, IMO began a
>> revival of the very old ideas in our Northern Europe mythology/folklore
>> that may have not happened at all. Can you find one book before
>> tolkien that isn't a collection of the very old folklore, that could be
>> described as what we call fantasy today?

One could say that Tolkien himself merely collected very old folklore. :-)

> What about Howard's Conan (and his other hacky slashy heroes)? Fritz
> Leiber's Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser? Clark Ashton Smith? H. P.
> Lovecraft? Ray Bradbury?

Unless I'm mistaken, they're _all_ post-Tolkien or at best contemporary with
him.

> The pulp magazine Weird Tales was founded in
> 1923, and helped kick-off the modern fantasy genre (maybe kick-off
> isn't the right word since it is an outlet that grew from a need of the
> newly burgeoning genre).

Good example.

> before all of the above were the likes of Edgar Rice Burroughs, H. G.
> Wells, Edgar Allen Poe, Lewis Carrol, etc.

I agree.

> None of this is to doubt Tolkien's influence, or his greatness, or
> anything like that. I don't know whether he was conversant with the
> nascent fantasy literature when he published TH and LOTR, but it was
> there and it was shaping the genre.
--
derek
Re: Good and Evil in Tolkien's worlds [message #121930 ] Di, 30 August 2005 15:39
donnellaf  
Derek Broughton wrote:
> Andrew F. Donnell wrote:
> > What about Howard's Conan (and his other hacky slashy heroes)? Fritz
> > Leiber's Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser? Clark Ashton Smith? H. P.
> > Lovecraft? Ray Bradbury?
>
> Unless I'm mistaken, they're _all_ post-Tolkien or at best contemporary with
> him.

They are all contemporaries, but they published fantasy before Tolkien
published the Hobbit. In fact, Howard died in 1936 and Lovecraft died
in 1937, so the entire corpus of their literature was published before
the Hobbit. Leiber's first Lankhmar story came out in 1939, Smith was
prolific in the 20's and 30's. Bradbury was a little later, so maybe
he wasn't the best choice for this list, but the others were clearly
making waves in the fantasy world before Tolkien was.

Farewell,
Andy
Re: Good and Evil in Tolkien's worlds [message #121934 ] Di, 30 August 2005 15:57
zip  
"the softrat" <softrat [at] pobox.com> wrote...

> > It was still a young literary movement
>
> Nonsense. It goes back to the beginning of written texts: The Epic of
> Gilgamesh, The Iliad, The Odyssey, Genesis, Exodus, the works of
> Lucian of Samosota, ....

I'm starting The Iliad now... I should be through the introduction any day!
;o)

My mouth is watering to actually get to the text itself, but I reckon the
introduction will be of good use in preparation for it.

-Paul.
Re: Good and Evil in Tolkien's worlds [message #122008 ] Do, 01 September 2005 00:00
Morgan  
I posted this before but couldn't find it after, i think i might have
accidently sent it to you instead. Anyway:


> Can you think of any direct quotations from the text which embody or
> define Good and Evil?

"There's some devilry at work in the Shire," says Sam when the
factories appear in Galadriels mirror.

Tolkien hated the harm wrought by the industrial revolution, he loved
nature as evident from the role forests and trees play in all his work.

And so Sauron and Saurumans creatures work in a hellish world of fire
and machines as well, whereas the elves are in step with the natural
world.

Using machines = evil
Using nature = good

Remeber that the signs that something was wrong in the Shire at the end
of the LOTR was that new
I doubt Tolkien would like the world we live in today!
Re: Good and Evil in Tolkien's worlds [message #122081 ] Do, 01 September 2005 05:53
the softrat  
On 31 Aug 2005 15:00:15 -0700, "Morgan" <southclean1 [at] O2mail.ie> wrote:
>
>Using machines = evil
>Using nature = good
>
Uh ......

Would you prefer to work in a pig sty or in a nice clean nuclear power
plant?

the softrat
Sometimes I get so tired of the taste of my own toes.
mailto:softrat [at] pobox.com
--
99% of lawyers give the rest a bad name. -- Steven Wright
Re: Good and Evil in Tolkien's worlds [message #122124 ] Do, 01 September 2005 20:00
Morgan  
I was talking about JRRT's point of view, not mine. Although if I lived
in England near a city in his time, I likely would have agreed, the
industrial revolution left a horrid mess behind in lots of ways.
Vorheriges Thema:COTW: APPENDIX F1The Languages and People of the Third Age
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