| Friend/lover of in Sindarin [message #119937] |
Fr, 26 August 2005 18:44 |
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What is the difference between the suffixes -dil and -dur in Sindarin?
Is it a matter of emphasis? Eg. Elendil and Elendur, Earendil and
Earendur.
--
Cheers, ymt.
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| Re: Friend/lover of in Sindarin [message #119988 ] |
Sa, 27 August 2005 11:43 |
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Yuk Tang <jim.laker2 [at] yahoo.com> wrote:
> What is the difference between the suffixes -dil and -dur in Sindarin?
> Is it a matter of emphasis? Eg. Elendil and Elendur, Earendil and
> Earendur.
The Etymologies say that *NIL, *NDIL means "friend", and corresponds to
Old English /wine/. On the other hand, *NDUR, *NUR means "bow down, obey,
serve". The SIL index says that "(n)dur ist very similar to (n)dil",
so I am not sure if the interpretation of *NDUR changed later on.
Maybe a good question to ask on one of the Tolkien language mailing lists?
- Dirk
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| Re: Friend/lover of in Sindarin [message #120002 ] |
Sa, 27 August 2005 23:21 |
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Yuk Tang <jim.laker2 [at] yahoo.com> wrote:
>What is the difference between the suffixes -dil and -dur in Sindarin?
>Is it a matter of emphasis? Eg. Elendil and Elendur, Earendil and
>Earendur.
Letter 386 says they are of "similar significance", but that (n)dur
<<properly means 'to serve', as one serves a legitimate master>>.
-M-
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| Re: Friend/lover of in Sindarin [message #120005 ] |
So, 28 August 2005 00:00 |
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Matthew Woodcraft <mattheww [at] chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote in
news:okm*pzdXq [at] news.chiark.greenend.org.uk:
> Yuk Tang <jim.laker2 [at] yahoo.com> wrote:
>>What is the difference between the suffixes -dil and -dur in
>>Sindarin? Is it a matter of emphasis? Eg. Elendil and Elendur,
>>Earendil and Earendur.
>
> Letter 386 says they are of "similar significance", but that
> (n)dur <<properly means 'to serve', as one serves a legitimate
> master>>.
Thanks. It would make sense, given that there is an informal servant-
master relationship between elves and Valar, which is more properly
that between teacher and student, or that between friends. Which is
derived from Tolkien's idealised squire-servant relationships, as
portrayed in the Frodo-Sam story.
Has anyone tried to figure out how the various elvish linguistics came
into being, or how they came about through elvish experiences? I
imagine that dwarven descriptions of authority would be more concrete
than their elvish equivalents, and that different branches of elvendom
would see different emphases in meaning in words.
--
Cheers, ymt.
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| Re: Friend/lover of in Sindarin [message #120024 ] |
So, 28 August 2005 09:38 |
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Dirk Thierbach <dthierbach [at] usenet.arcornews.de> wrote in
news:20050827094358.5A7.2.NOFFLE [at] dthierbach.news.arcor.de:
> Yuk Tang <jim.laker2 [at] yahoo.com> wrote:
>> What is the difference between the suffixes -dil and -dur in
>> Sindarin? Is it a matter of emphasis? Eg. Elendil and Elendur,
>> Earendil and Earendur.
>
> The Etymologies say that *NIL, *NDIL means "friend", and
> corresponds to Old English /wine/. On the other hand, *NDUR, *NUR
> means "bow down, obey, serve". The SIL index says that "(n)dur ist
> very similar to (n)dil", so I am not sure if the interpretation of
> *NDUR changed later on.
>
> Maybe a good question to ask on one of the Tolkien language
> mailing lists?
It says something about Tolkien's idealised vision of the master-
servant relationship, as seen in the exchanges between Frodo and Sam.
I speculated elsewhere, in a text-internal explanation, whether or
not the relationship between Elves and Valar may have been similar,
which led to said etymology. After all, the royal houses were simply
individuals chosen to represent their peoples in the mission to
Valinor, without the history of conquest that has led to cultures of
subjugation in the real world.
--
Cheers, ymt.
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| Re: Friend/lover of in Sindarin [message #120030 ] |
So, 28 August 2005 11:27 |
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Yuk Tang <jim.laker2 [at] yahoo.com> wrote:
> Dirk Thierbach <dthierbach [at] usenet.arcornews.de> wrote in
> news:20050827094358.5A7.2.NOFFLE [at] dthierbach.news.arcor.de:
>> Yuk Tang <jim.laker2 [at] yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> What is the difference between the suffixes -dil and -dur in
>>> Sindarin? Is it a matter of emphasis? Eg. Elendil and Elendur,
>>> Earendil and Earendur.
>>
>> The Etymologies say that *NIL, *NDIL means "friend", and
>> corresponds to Old English /wine/. On the other hand, *NDUR, *NUR
>> means "bow down, obey, serve". The SIL index says that "(n)dur ist
>> very similar to (n)dil", so I am not sure if the interpretation of
>> *NDUR changed later on.
>>
>> Maybe a good question to ask on one of the Tolkien language
>> mailing lists?
>
> It says something about Tolkien's idealised vision of the master-
> servant relationship, as seen in the exchanges between Frodo and Sam.
> I speculated elsewhere, in a text-internal explanation, whether or
> not the relationship between Elves and Valar may have been similar,
> which led to said etymology. After all, the royal houses were simply
> individuals chosen to represent their peoples in the mission to
> Valinor, without the history of conquest that has led to cultures of
> subjugation in the real world.
I do get the impression that we see these sorts of relationships (master
to servant, but without subjugation) in Tolkien. The specific example I
thought of when you mentioned the Elves and the Valar was Ingwe, who, it
is said:
"...entered into Valinor and sits at the feet of the Powers" (Of the
Coming of the Elves)
And later:
"He abode thereafter at the feet of Manwe upon Taniquetil." (Of Eldamar
and the Princes of the Eldalie)
I am also reminded of the way in which the Edain sent their young sons
to serve in households of the Noldor. And more generally, the meeting of
Finrod with Men reminds me of the meeting of Orome with the Elves. In
each case, you can imagine a teacher-student relationship forming.
Christopher
--
---
Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard
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