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Fantasy » alt.fan.tolkien » Re-forging Narsil
Re-forging Narsil [message #116461] Mo, 22 August 2005 21:40
Col  
For anyone with metal-working knowledge: How plausible is it to reforge a
broken sword? I would have thought that it would be pretty tricky, and that
the sword would have an inherent weak point.

Why re-forge Narsil anyway, rather than make a new sword - did it have some
power or spell in it, like the barrow blades or Sting?

Cheers
Col


--
Dog as a devil deified - deified lived as a God
Re: Re-forging Narsil [message #116468 ] Mo, 22 August 2005 22:18
Yuk Tang  
"Col" <col_witcher [at] hatespam.lineone.net> wrote in
news:430a29a2_3 [at] mk-nntp-1.news.uk.worldonline.com:
>
> For anyone with metal-working knowledge: How plausible is it to
> reforge a broken sword? I would have thought that it would be
> pretty tricky, and that the sword would have an inherent weak
> point.

Anyone who's read Pratchett will know the answer. The hilt, pommel,
guard, and even the blade may be replaced, but the sword remains the
same.


--
Cheers, ymt.
Re: Re-forging Narsil [message #116493 ] Di, 23 August 2005 02:15
Dan C  
On Mon, 22 Aug 2005 20:18:18 +0000, Yuk Tang wrote:

>> For anyone with metal-working knowledge: How plausible is it to
>> reforge a broken sword? I would have thought that it would be
>> pretty tricky, and that the sword would have an inherent weak
>> point.

> Anyone who's read Pratchett will know the answer. The hilt, pommel,
> guard, and even the blade may be replaced, but the sword remains the
> same.

How does that answer the question? That's right, it doesn't. If you
don't know, be quiet.

--
If you're not on the edge, you're taking up too much space.
Linux Registered User #327951
Re: Re-forging Narsil [message #116497 ] Di, 23 August 2005 02:47
the softrat  
On Mon, 22 Aug 2005 20:40:01 +0100, "Col"
<col_witcher [at] hatespam.lineone.net> wrote:

>For anyone with metal-working knowledge: How plausible is it to reforge a
>broken sword? I would have thought that it would be pretty tricky, and that
>the sword would have an inherent weak point.
>
>Why re-forge Narsil anyway, rather than make a new sword - did it have some
>power or spell in it, like the barrow blades or Sting?
>
>Cheers
>Col

Well, it is better than Wagner's solution wherein the sword Nothing is
soldered back together.

Or is Siegfried heating the solder just for fun?

the softrat
Sometimes I get so tired of the taste of my own toes.
mailto:softrat [at] pobox.com
--
Visualize using your turn signal.
Re: Re-forging Narsil [message #116500 ] Di, 23 August 2005 05:05
OMeallyMD  
Col wrote:

<snip>
>
> Why re-forge Narsil anyway, rather than make a new sword - did it
> have some power or spell in it, like the barrow blades or Sting?

Search r.a.b.t. for "why was strider carrying around a broken sword?"

--
Bill

"Wise fool"
Gandalf, THE TWO TOWERS
-- The Wise will remove 'se' to reply; the Foolish will not--
Re: Re-forging Narsil [message #116515 ] Di, 23 August 2005 13:52
Tux Wonder-Dog  
Col wrote:

> For anyone with metal-working knowledge: How plausible is it to reforge a
> broken sword? I would have thought that it would be pretty tricky, and
> that the sword would have an inherent weak point.

As far as I know - and this comes from quite some years back, when I was
working in a Historic Village, watching the blacksmith - it would be
completely reworked. Everything heated back up, back into a white-hot mass
of metal, then re-welded again.

Not a mere case of "soldering" everything together, because that leaves you
with the original breaks in it.

Ironworking as done by the blacksmith, is a combinatory process. From one
perspective, it's welding the iron onto itself; from another perspective,
it's a sophisticated alloying process, where you attempt to control the
iron-carbon-etc ratios; from another perspective it's controlling the
crystalline structure of the resulting iron-carbon alloy through heating,
tempering, hammering, etc.

The crystalline structure of the iron-carbon alloy steel is what makes it so
versatile - give it one particular form, and you get a very flexible
material; give it another, and you get a very hard but brittle material.
Put one crystalline structure behind the other, and hammer the edges of
hard part till they're sharp, and you have a specialized cutting weapon.
Hammer and fold and refold, etc, like the famous damascene sword makers and
the samurai sword makers, and you get a weapon that is amazing sharp,
flexible, and hard, because the flexible structure is veneered so closely
with the hard and brittle structure.

I imagine Narsil would've been reforged in that way.

But I'm no expert.
>
> Why re-forge Narsil anyway, rather than make a new sword - did it have
> some power or spell in it, like the barrow blades or Sting?

It was an Elven-smith's sword, which meant that it had properties not found
in mere mortals' weaponry. It also had a history, and that history was
worth more than its mere physical details.
>
> Cheers
> Col
>
>
Wesley Parish
--
"Good, late in to more rewarding well."  "Well, you tonight.  And I was
lookintelligent woman of Ming home.  I trust you with a tender silence."  I
get a word into my hands, a different and unbelike, probably - 'she
fortunate fat woman', wrong word.  I think to me, I justupid.
Let not emacs meta-X dissociate-press write your romantic dialogs...!!!
Re: Re-forging Narsil [message #116544 ] Di, 23 August 2005 18:35
Natman  
On Mon, 22 Aug 2005 20:40:01 +0100, "Col"
<col_witcher [at] hatespam.lineone.net> wrote:

>For anyone with metal-working knowledge: How plausible is it to reforge a
>broken sword? I would have thought that it would be pretty tricky, and that
>the sword would have an inherent weak point.
>
>Why re-forge Narsil anyway, rather than make a new sword - did it have some
>power or spell in it, like the barrow blades or Sting?
>
>Cheers
>Col

I don't know about the practicalities of reforging a sword, but if you
can suspend disbelief enough to accept hobbits, wizards, orcs and
dragons you should be able to believe that Elvish craftsmen could do
it. <g>

As far as why reforge it, Narsil was a powerful reminder of Sauron's
defeat at Dagorlad. Centuries later everyone still knew about it.

"The Sword that was Broken Returns" was a major morale booster and
serves as Aragorn's calling card and a token of his heritage.
Re: Re-forging Narsil [message #116565 ] Di, 23 August 2005 20:28
Matthew Woodcraft  
Tux Wonder-Dog <wes.parish [at] paradise.net.nz> wrote:
>It was an Elven-smith's sword, which meant that it had properties not found
>in mere mortals' weaponry. It also had a history, and that history was
>worth more than its mere physical details.

It was a Dwarf-smith's sword when they had to decide to re-forge it.

-M-
Re: Re-forging Narsil [message #116568 ] Di, 23 August 2005 20:51
Col  
"Tux Wonder-Dog" <wes.parish [at] paradise.net.nz> wrote in message
news:430b0d14 [at] clear.net.nz...
> Col wrote:
>
> > For anyone with metal-working knowledge: How plausible is it to reforge
a
> > broken sword? I would have thought that it would be pretty tricky, and
> > that the sword would have an inherent weak point.
>
> As far as I know - and this comes from quite some years back, when I was
> working in a Historic Village, watching the blacksmith - it would be
> completely reworked. Everything heated back up, back into a white-hot
mass
> of metal, then re-welded again.
>
> Not a mere case of "soldering" everything together, because that leaves
you
> with the original breaks in it.
>
> Ironworking as done by the blacksmith, is a combinatory process. From one
> perspective, it's welding the iron onto itself; from another perspective,
> it's a sophisticated alloying process, where you attempt to control the
> iron-carbon-etc ratios; from another perspective it's controlling the
> crystalline structure of the resulting iron-carbon alloy through heating,
> tempering, hammering, etc.
>
> The crystalline structure of the iron-carbon alloy steel is what makes it
so
> versatile - give it one particular form, and you get a very flexible
> material; give it another, and you get a very hard but brittle material.
> Put one crystalline structure behind the other, and hammer the edges of
> hard part till they're sharp, and you have a specialized cutting weapon.
> Hammer and fold and refold, etc, like the famous damascene sword makers
and
> the samurai sword makers, and you get a weapon that is amazing sharp,
> flexible, and hard, because the flexible structure is veneered so closely
> with the hard and brittle structure.
>
> I imagine Narsil would've been reforged in that way.
>
> But I'm no expert.
> >
> > Why re-forge Narsil anyway, rather than make a new sword - did it have
> > some power or spell in it, like the barrow blades or Sting?
>
> It was an Elven-smith's sword, which meant that it had properties not
found
> in mere mortals' weaponry. It also had a history, and that history was
> worth more than its mere physical details.

Thanks for the detail. But where does it say that Narsil was Elvish?

Cheers
Col
Re: Re-forging Narsil [message #116616 ] Mi, 24 August 2005 00:04
Prai Jei  
the softrat (or somebody else of the same name) wrote thusly in message
<qeskg1htdsbud28enu3674st67990inirv [at] 4ax.com>:

> On Mon, 22 Aug 2005 20:40:01 +0100, "Col"
> <col_witcher [at] hatespam.lineone.net> wrote:
>
>>For anyone with metal-working knowledge: How plausible is it to reforge a
>>broken sword? I would have thought that it would be pretty tricky, and
>>that the sword would have an inherent weak point.
>>
>>Why re-forge Narsil anyway, rather than make a new sword - did it have
>>some power or spell in it, like the barrow blades or Sting?
>>
>>Cheers
>>Col
>
> Well, it is better than Wagner's solution wherein the sword Nothing is
> soldered back together.
>
> Or is Siegfried heating the solder just for fun?
>
> the softrat

The sword's name is Nothung, one letter different from your version. It's
krautspeak for "needful".

In one DVD set of Wagner's Ring (Levine) Siegfried melts the original sword
down and re-forges it anew. In another recording (Chéreau) he simply bashes
it a few times in a steam-powered press, but in that version the dragon is
so dysfunctional that it has been stuffed, mounted on a trolley and is
pushed around by the stagehands, sorry by the Orcs, sorry by the
Nibelungen.

--
A couple of questions. How do I stop the wires short-circuiting, and what's
this nylon washer for?

Interchange the alphabetic letter groups to reply
Re: Re-forging Narsil [message #116656 ] Mi, 24 August 2005 05:03
OMeallyMD  
Col wrote:

> Thanks for the detail. But where does it say that Narsil was Elvish?

It wasn't. It was forged in the First Age by Telchar, a Dwarf of Nogrod.
--
Bill

"Wise fool"
Gandalf, THE TWO TOWERS
-- The Wise will remove 'se' to reply; the Foolish will not--
Re: Re-forging Narsil [message #118073 ] Mi, 24 August 2005 15:38
Tux Wonder-Dog  
Bill O'Meally wrote:

> Col wrote:
>
>> Thanks for the detail. But where does it say that Narsil was Elvish?
>
> It wasn't. It was forged in the First Age by Telchar, a Dwarf of Nogrod.

Thanks. I'd forgotten that little detail.

Wesley Parish
--
"Good, late in to more rewarding well."  "Well, you tonight.  And I was
lookintelligent woman of Ming home.  I trust you with a tender silence."  I
get a word into my hands, a different and unbelike, probably - 'she
fortunate fat woman', wrong word.  I think to me, I justupid.
Let not emacs meta-X dissociate-press write your romantic dialogs...!!!
Re: Re-forging Narsil [message #119967 ] Sa, 27 August 2005 09:02
Flame of the West  
Natman wrote:

> As far as why reforge it, Narsil was a powerful reminder of Sauron's
> defeat at Dagorlad. Centuries later everyone still knew about it.
>
> "The Sword that was Broken Returns" was a major morale booster and
> serves as Aragorn's calling card and a token of his heritage.

Not to mention that Aragorn used it to unnerve
Sauron when they saw each other in the Palantír.


-- FotW

Reality is for those who cannot cope with Middle-earth.
Re: Re-forging Narsil [message #121911 ] Di, 30 August 2005 08:33
morgothscurse2002  
On Wed, 24 Aug 2005 03:03:12 GMT, "Bill O'Meally"
<OMeallyMD [at] wise.rr.com> wrote:

>Col wrote:
>
>> Thanks for the detail. But where does it say that Narsil was Elvish?
>
>It wasn't. It was forged in the First Age by Telchar, a Dwarf of Nogrod.

I suspect that Narsil contained that an alloy that no one could
reproduce. The Dwarves were _always_ a secretive folk who rarely
shared the secrets of their craft with even their closest friends.
It's possible that Telchar had devised a method for producing a
superior grade of steel and died without ever sharing it with anybody.
Hence, it would make perfect sense to reuse the shards of Narsil to
forge Anduril.

Morgoth's Curse
Re: Re-forging Narsil [message #121915 ] Di, 30 August 2005 11:18
Yuk Tang  
Morgoth's Curse <morgothscurse2002 [at] nospamyahoo.com> wrote in
news:jan5h1dvgv6dqsq2cfvvkekau7c8uco5f6 [at] 4ax.com:
> On Wed, 24 Aug 2005 03:03:12 GMT, "Bill O'Meally"
> <OMeallyMD [at] wise.rr.com> wrote:
>>Col wrote:
>>
>>> Thanks for the detail. But where does it say that Narsil was
>>> Elvish?
>>
>>It wasn't. It was forged in the First Age by Telchar, a Dwarf of
>>Nogrod.
>
> I suspect that Narsil contained that an alloy that no one could
> reproduce. The Dwarves were _always_ a secretive folk who rarely
> shared the secrets of their craft with even their closest friends.
> It's possible that Telchar had devised a method for producing a
> superior grade of steel and died without ever sharing it with
> anybody. Hence, it would make perfect sense to reuse the shards of
> Narsil to forge Anduril.

Then how would they bind the shards together without leaving
weaknesses? If they just melted the edges to form bonds, why didn't
they just melt the whole thing down and remake it from scratch?


--
Cheers, ymt.
Re: Re-forging Narsil [message #121925 ] Di, 30 August 2005 15:02
OMeallyMD  
Yuk Tang wrote:

> Then how would they bind the shards together without leaving
> weaknesses? If they just melted the edges to form bonds, why didn't
> they just melt the whole thing down and remake it from scratch?

I had always assumed that they did just that.

--
Bill

"Wise fool"
Gandalf, THE TWO TOWERS
-- The Wise will remove 'se' to reply; the Foolish will not--
Re: Re-forging Narsil [message #121938 ] Di, 30 August 2005 16:53
morgothscurse2002  
On Tue, 30 Aug 2005 13:02:17 GMT, "Bill O'Meally"
<OMeallyMD [at] wise.rr.com> wrote:

>Yuk Tang wrote:
>
>> Then how would they bind the shards together without leaving
>> weaknesses? If they just melted the edges to form bonds, why didn't
>> they just melt the whole thing down and remake it from scratch?
>
>I had always assumed that they did just that.

Exactly. The smiths had to reuse the entire sword (except perhaps for
the hilt) as a source of metal for Anduril since the quality of the
metal was superior to anything that the Elves could produce. It
didn't matter if Anduril was an inch or two shorter than Narsil had
been. Who in Middle-earth was going to stop Aragorn and say "Pardon
me, my lord, but may I measure your sword?" :)

Morgoth's Curse
Re: Re-forging Narsil [message #121941 ] Di, 30 August 2005 17:15
Yuk Tang  
Morgoth's Curse <morgothscurse2002 [at] nospamyahoo.com> wrote in
news:dlo8h1t2igkbovko71oq0dimim59fr990q [at] 4ax.com:
> On Tue, 30 Aug 2005 13:02:17 GMT, "Bill O'Meally"
> <OMeallyMD [at] wise.rr.com> wrote:
>>Yuk Tang wrote:
>>
>>> Then how would they bind the shards together without leaving
>>> weaknesses? If they just melted the edges to form bonds, why
>>> didn't they just melt the whole thing down and remake it from
>>> scratch?
>>
>>I had always assumed that they did just that.
>
> Exactly. The smiths had to reuse the entire sword (except perhaps
> for the hilt) as a source of metal for Anduril since the quality
> of the metal was superior to anything that the Elves could
> produce. It didn't matter if Anduril was an inch or two shorter
> than Narsil had been. Who in Middle-earth was going to stop
> Aragorn and say "Pardon me, my lord, but may I measure your
> sword?" :)

Perhaps they could have split the metal in two and layered softer
metal against the Telcharin base, making a self-sharpening sword, and
have enough metal left over to make another one.

I don't expect JRRT to have written anything substantial on the
making of Anduril, but can anyone surprise me?


--
Cheers, ymt.
Re: Re-forging Narsil [message #122190 ] Fr, 02 September 2005 13:22
Tux Wonder-Dog  
Yuk Tang wrote:

> Morgoth's Curse <morgothscurse2002 [at] nospamyahoo.com> wrote in
> news:jan5h1dvgv6dqsq2cfvvkekau7c8uco5f6 [at] 4ax.com:
>> On Wed, 24 Aug 2005 03:03:12 GMT, "Bill O'Meally"
>> <OMeallyMD [at] wise.rr.com> wrote:
>>>Col wrote:
>>>
>>>> Thanks for the detail. But where does it say that Narsil was
>>>> Elvish?
>>>
>>>It wasn't. It was forged in the First Age by Telchar, a Dwarf of
>>>Nogrod.
>>
>> I suspect that Narsil contained that an alloy that no one could
>> reproduce. The Dwarves were _always_ a secretive folk who rarely
>> shared the secrets of their craft with even their closest friends.
>> It's possible that Telchar had devised a method for producing a
>> superior grade of steel and died without ever sharing it with
>> anybody. Hence, it would make perfect sense to reuse the shards of
>> Narsil to forge Anduril.
>
> Then how would they bind the shards together without leaving
> weaknesses? If they just melted the edges to form bonds, why didn't
> they just melt the whole thing down and remake it from scratch?
>
>
But that's one of the things I pointed out.

Reforging something like a steel blade, involves heating and hammering and
quenching, reheating and rehammering and requenching, etc. In ordinary
parlance, "welding" the iron to itself, because when iron or the
iron-carbon allow we call steel, is heated sufficiently and then hammered
together with other pieces of iron, etc, there is a weld made between the
two or more pieces undergoing this tough love.

A weld is among other things, an alignment of the crystalline structure of
the two or more iron pieces. A solder joint is a third metal alloy joining
two dissimilar metals without affecting the crystalline structure at all.

It sounds as if you're confusing forging (aka welding) with soldering. My
advice is, that isn't such a good idea, particularly when it comes to
electronics. (One would hate to be the person responsible for arc-welding
a CPU to a motherboard. ;^)

Wesley Parish
--
"Good, late in to more rewarding well."  "Well, you tonight.  And I was
lookintelligent woman of Ming home.  I trust you with a tender silence."  I
get a word into my hands, a different and unbelike, probably - 'she
fortunate fat woman', wrong word.  I think to me, I justupid.
Let not emacs meta-X dissociate-press write your romantic dialogs...!!!
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