| Irish word for Wizard [message #110498] |
Mo, 15 August 2005 17:23 |
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I always wondered where Tolkien's word for Wizard came from in terms of
Real World inspiration.
Now this Irish word may or may not have influenced Tolkien, perhaps
there's a contradiction in Letters or an internal construction in the Elf
tongue that explains it, but there's an assonance that no other word for
wizard that I know of has.
wizard = asarlaí
asarlaí
istarí
I was actually researching the Irish for "Wolf" as I was suspicious of a
nic in SCI being Mac and Tíre, but so it is.
And two up from it was asarlaí.
Odd.
As for Tolkien's inner language roots and word-construction being the
definitive originator of names, well, calling Numenor Atalante, the
downfallen, sort of puts paid to that I think.
FWIW
M.
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| Re: Irish word for Wizard [message #110504 ] |
Di, 16 August 2005 00:01 |
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Michael O'Neill wrote:
> I always wondered where Tolkien's word for Wizard came from in terms
> of Real World inspiration.
>
> Now this Irish word may or may not have influenced Tolkien, perhaps
> there's a contradiction in Letters or an internal construction in the
> Elf tongue that explains it, but there's an assonance that no other
> word for wizard that I know of has.
>
> wizard = asarlaí
>
> asarlaí
>
> istarí
ISTR that Tolkien strongly disliked the Irish language, though whether that
would have prevented him from borrowing from it, who can say?
--
Speaking Clock
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| Re: Irish word for Wizard [message #110514 ] |
Di, 16 August 2005 03:05 |
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Speaking Clock wrote:
> ISTR that Tolkien strongly disliked the Irish language, though whether that
> would have prevented him from borrowing from it, who can say?
It is true IIRC. Perhaps the Welsh word for wizard is similar?
-- FotW
Reality is for those who cannot cope with Middle-earth.
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| Re: Irish word for Wizard [message #110516 ] |
Di, 16 August 2005 04:56 |
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Flame of the West wrote:
> Speaking Clock wrote:
>
> > ISTR that Tolkien strongly disliked the Irish language, though whether that
> > would have prevented him from borrowing from it, who can say?
>
> It is true IIRC. Perhaps the Welsh word for wizard is similar?
>
>
> -- FotW
>
> Reality is for those who cannot cope with Middle-earth.
In Letter #297, he wrote "I have no liking at all for Gaelic from Old
Irish downward, as a language, but it is of course of great historical
and philological interest, and I have at various times studied it."
However, this is in a paragraph where he admitted that he must have
_unconsciously_ derived the word /nazg/ "ring" from Gaelic /nasc/. He
only realized it years later, "recently in looking for something in a
Gaelic dictionary". (The draft was dated August 1967).
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| Re: Irish word for Wizard [message #110527 ] |
Di, 16 August 2005 17:51 |
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Flame of the West wrote:
>Speaking Clock wrote:
>> ISTR that Tolkien strongly disliked the Irish language, though whether t=
hat
>> would have prevented him from borrowing from it, who can say?
>
>It is true IIRC. Perhaps the Welsh word for wizard is similar?
No, the Welsh words for wizard are "swynwr" and "dewin".
Personally, I think the word "asarla=ED" is not similar enough to
"istari" (which is written without an accent over the "i") to be a
likely inspiration for it.
=D6jevind
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| Re: Irish word for Wizard [message #113486 ] |
Di, 16 August 2005 19:19 |
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On 16 Aug 2005 09:14:51 -0700, =D6jevind L=E5ng (ojevind.lang [at] bredband.net)=
=20
said:
> Flame of the West wrote:
>=20
> >Speaking Clock wrote:
> >> ISTR that Tolkien strongly disliked the Irish language, though whether=
that
> >> would have prevented him from borrowing from it, who can say?
> >
> >It is true IIRC. Perhaps the Welsh word for wizard is similar?
>=20
> No, the Welsh words for wizard are "swynwr" and "dewin".
> Personally, I think the word "asarla=ED" is not similar enough to
> "istari" (which is written without an accent over the "i") to be a
> likely inspiration for it.
Since _Istar_, _Istari_ are Quenya words, the cognate Sindarin forms are=20
the ones more likely to have been influenced by Celtic words. These=20
forms are _Ithron_, _Ithryn_ (as in _Ithryn Luin_, the Blue Wizards)=20
which again have no obvious connexion with _swynwr_ or _dewin_.
--=20
Matthew
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| Re: Irish word for Wizard [message #113490 ] |
Di, 16 August 2005 20:36 |
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Matthew Bladen wrote:
> Since _Istar_, _Istari_ are Quenya words, the cognate Sindarin forms are
> the ones more likely to have been influenced by Celtic words. These
> forms are _Ithron_, _Ithryn_ (as in _Ithryn Luin_, the Blue Wizards)
> which again have no obvious connexion with _swynwr_ or _dewin_.
There's of course the Babylonian goddess Ishtar, which could
be the source, or possibly the Finnish word "Mestari" - Master.
Morgil
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| Re: Irish word for Wizard [message #113597 ] |
So, 21 August 2005 12:24 |
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Morgil wrote:
> Matthew Bladen wrote:
>
> > Since _Istar_, _Istari_ are Quenya words, the cognate Sindarin forms are
> > the ones more likely to have been influenced by Celtic words. These
> > forms are _Ithron_, _Ithryn_ (as in _Ithryn Luin_, the Blue Wizards)
> > which again have no obvious connexion with _swynwr_ or _dewin_.
>
> There's of course the Babylonian goddess Ishtar, which could
> be the source, or possibly the Finnish word "Mestari" - Master.
>=20
Or even the Finnish word "Isois=E4" - Grandfather.
Henriette
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| Re: Irish word for Wizard [message #113598 ] |
So, 21 August 2005 13:06 |
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ojevind.lang [at] bredband.net wrote:
> Flame of the West wrote:
> >
> >(snip)Perhaps the Welsh word for wizard is similar?
>
> No, the Welsh words for wizard are "swynwr" and "dewin".
Maybe "Dewin" is cognate to "Dervish"?
> Personally, I think the word "asarla=ED" is not similar enough to
> "istari" (which is written without an accent over the "i") to be a
> likely inspiration for it.
So do I, but it is an interesting thought, as the word "istari" has
always made *me* think of the Italian word "istruire" (to educate/to
drill).
Henriette
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| Re: Irish word for Wizard [message #116445 ] |
Mo, 22 August 2005 17:08 |
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"Henriette" <heldenib [at] hotmail.com> wrote...
> > or possibly the Finnish word "Mestari" - Master.
>
> Or even the Finnish word "Isoisä" - Grandfather.
Perhaps a mix of both.
-Paul.
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| Re: Irish word for Wizard [message #116479 ] |
Di, 23 August 2005 00:05 |
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Sounds like this idiot is finally starting to recuperate from the U.S.
election.
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| Re: Irish word for Wizard [message #118059 ] |
Mi, 24 August 2005 13:11 |
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"ssssooo" <nospam [at] nospam.com> wrote...
> Sounds like this idiot is finally starting to recuperate from the U.S.
> election.
The only one mentioning constantly here, is you.
-Paul.
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| Re: Irish word for Wizard [message #120096 ] |
Mo, 29 August 2005 16:00 |
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ssssooo wrote:
> Sounds like this idiot is finally starting to recuperate from the U.S.
> election.
With a nic like ssssooo, recuperation and you are concepts that are
mutually exclusive.
Besides, proof of corrupt US practices abound.
Witness the use of private armies of hired mercenaries in Iraq.
M.
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