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Fantasy » alt.fan.tolkien » Re: Tolkien and Wagner (was re: Best books about Tolkien / Middle-Earth)
| Re: Tolkien and Wagner (was re: Best books about Tolkien / Middle-Earth) [message #300410] |
Fr, 14 Juli 2006 17:16 |
|
Larry Swain wrote:
> Michael [at] xenite.org wrote:
> > Christopher Kreuzer wrote:
> >
> >
> >>>Some papers have been written about Tolkien and Dante. It's been a
> >>>long time since I've looked at any of them, so I don't recall what the
> >>>authors had to say.
> >>
> >>Hmm. You can't remember a date or name or publication at all?
> >
> >
> > There are far more papers about Tolkien than I have ever read, could
> > ever hope to read, or ever will want to read. I may come across a
> > reference again but cannot promise any special effort.
>
> Other than my own in process essay on Tolkien and Dante, I only know of
> one other, published just this year in: Explicator, Summer 2006, v. 64,
> #3, 167-70. Judith Caesar, "Tolkien's Lord of the Rings and Dante's
> Inferno." She's pretty loose in drawing parallels, some of which I
> agree with, some I don't, but the ones I agree with need a lot more
> detail work to convince than she gives them I think. Anyway, there are
> several articles that mention Dante along the way to discussing
> something else, but only these two that I am aware of that have
> specifically Dante and his possible influence on Tolkien as the main
> subject. I'd be interested in finding more if its out there.
Probably most of the commentaries are in Italian, but that's just a
guess. You can look at Rachel Falconer's TOLKIEN, DANTE, AND CROSSOVER
EPIC for a start. There are some religious media sources that have
articles comparing Tolkien to Dante. Without intending to revisit our
differences over what constitutes scholarship, I don't know if you
would regard those publications' articles to be of a similar quality,
although I suppose it depends on the publication.
I don't have much more time for news group discussions right now.
Larry, I've been debating whether to extend an invitation to you to
comment on "Beowulf" at SF-FANDOM. I doubt the hostility you feel
towards me will ever reside. However, I'm not a "Beowulf" expert, have
never portrayed myself as a "Beowulf" expert, but nonetheless found
myself in the position of commenting almost exclusively on the poem for
the Endor mailing list (it was supposed to be a discussion topic, but
somewhere along the way I started posting tons of citations and
opinions and recollections and the next thing I knew my discussion
group sort of fell back into open-mouthed gaping silence, although I
did receive positive comments in the post-discussion analysis).
All that said, I've been reposting my comments on SF-FANDOM's medieval
European studies forum. I don't have time to rewrite them to make them
more inviting to followup as was suggested on the Endor list.
Nonetheless, it's obvious (to me and surely to anyone familiar with
"Beowulf") that my commentaries are missing a lot of the key points one
could expect to see in a serious discussion of the poem.
If you care to share any insights with our community, I'll tell the
moderators you have my invitation to rejoin the community.
All I ask is that you NOT make any comments about me, my Tolkien
essays, etc. No personal commentaries. SF-FANDOM policies remain in
place and this is not a restriction specific to you, just an admonition
to resist temptation, however strong it may (once you read some of my
comments), to talk about me rather than the poem.
There are other people I could invite, and have considered inviting
(and may yet invite), to comment on the poem, but this is an olive
branch extended to you.
If you accept the invitation, I'll let the past stay in the past
between us.
The commentaries use etexts from Project Gutenberg. We started out
using Frances Gummere's translation for about 15 sections but that
proved to be such a poor choice I switched over to Leslie Hall's
translation (which also leaves some things to be desired, but good
public domain translations are hard to come by).
I've been trying to post 3 sections a week but haven't always been able
to do that. I posted 6 last night and brought us up to section XXX.
http://www.sf-fandom.com/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=29
--
Hallowed are the Ori -- in their own minds. Frankly, I think they owe
me $50.
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| Re: Tolkien and Wagner (was re: Best books about Tolkien / Middle-Earth) [message #300411 ] |
Fr, 14 Juli 2006 17:24 |
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Mich... [at] xenite.org wrote:
> All that said, I've been reposting my comments on SF-FANDOM's medieval
> European studies forum. I don't have time to rewrite them to make them
> more inviting to followup as was suggested on the Endor list.
> Nonetheless, it's obvious (to me and surely to anyone familiar with
> "Beowulf") that my commentaries are missing a lot of the key points one
> could expect to see in a serious discussion of the poem.
>
> If you care to share any insights with our community, I'll tell the
> moderators you have my invitation to rejoin the community.
And it appears that your account information was lost in a server
crash, so you would have to re-register. If you use AOL, you may see a
message saying you're banned. We sometimes ban by range of IP address
when trolls come in and spam the forums. Just use the contact form to
notify the administrators and Stripe or RobRoy will open up the IP
addresses for you.
http://www.xenite.org/main/contactus.html
--
Stargate-SG1 and Stargate: Atlantis start up again tonight. And my
girl is coming back to town. I should have dated a geek....
|
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| Re: Tolkien and Wagner (was re: Best books about Tolkien / Middle-Earth) [message #300412 ] |
Fr, 14 Juli 2006 23:26 |
|
Michael [at] xenite.org wrote:
> Larry Swain wrote:
>
>>Michael [at] xenite.org wrote:
>>
>>>Christopher Kreuzer wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>>Some papers have been written about Tolkien and Dante. It's been a
>>>>>long time since I've looked at any of them, so I don't recall what the
>>>>>authors had to say.
>>>>
>>>>Hmm. You can't remember a date or name or publication at all?
>>>
>>>
>>>There are far more papers about Tolkien than I have ever read, could
>>>ever hope to read, or ever will want to read. I may come across a
>>>reference again but cannot promise any special effort.
>>
>>Other than my own in process essay on Tolkien and Dante, I only know of
>>one other, published just this year in: Explicator, Summer 2006, v. 64,
>>#3, 167-70. Judith Caesar, "Tolkien's Lord of the Rings and Dante's
>>Inferno." She's pretty loose in drawing parallels, some of which I
>>agree with, some I don't, but the ones I agree with need a lot more
>>detail work to convince than she gives them I think. Anyway, there are
>>several articles that mention Dante along the way to discussing
>>something else, but only these two that I am aware of that have
>>specifically Dante and his possible influence on Tolkien as the main
>>subject. I'd be interested in finding more if its out there.
>
>
> Probably most of the commentaries are in Italian, but that's just a
> guess.
Commentaries on Dante? A great number of those are, but no matter.
You can look at Rachel Falconer's TOLKIEN, DANTE, AND CROSSOVER
> EPIC for a start.
I had forgotten about that one. Although as I recall the article its
more about audience reception (differences and similarities in reception
of epic literature between adults and children) than it is about Dante
and Tolkien. But thanks for jogging my memory and I'll go reread it.
There are some religious media sources that have
> articles comparing Tolkien to Dante.
Yes, there are a number that make some sort of comparison or reference
along the way, whether to similiarities in theology, or this scene looks
like that scene maybe, sort of thing, but the actual article or book
isn't focused on Dante and Tolkien. I've encountered a number of those
kinds of articles. If you happen to remember or come across something
of what you intimate there, articles actually doing some comparing, I'd
be interested in that. I've searched West's bib, Drout's Bib, Tolkien
Studies Bib, and just about every search engine and library tool you can
imagine. Perhaps I'm using the wrong keywords.
Without intending to revisit our
> differences over what constitutes scholarship,
I'm not sure that we're all that different. As I intimated to Troels,
I'm of two minds about what goes on here as counting as scholarship (and
I included myself in this), and 5 of the 10 people I listed as the top
ten are non-academic, as we've both pointed out. The only difference
seems to be that I'm not sure it counts, and equally not sure it doesn't
count, whereas you are very sure it does. So a difference yes, but
certainly not a diametrically opposed one.
I don't know if you
> would regard those publications' articles to be of a similar quality,
> although I suppose it depends on the publication.
Depends on the publication, the questions being asked, how they're being
answered and so on.
>
> I don't have much more time for news group discussions right now.
>
> Larry, I've been debating whether to extend an invitation to you to
> comment on "Beowulf" at SF-FANDOM. I doubt the hostility you feel
> towards me will ever reside.
I'm sure the feeling is mutual.
However, I'm not a "Beowulf" expert, have
> never portrayed myself as a "Beowulf" expert, but nonetheless found
> myself in the position of commenting almost exclusively on the poem for
> the Endor mailing list (it was supposed to be a discussion topic, but
> somewhere along the way I started posting tons of citations and
> opinions and recollections and the next thing I knew my discussion
> group sort of fell back into open-mouthed gaping silence, although I
> did receive positive comments in the post-discussion analysis).
>
> All that said, I've been reposting my comments on SF-FANDOM's medieval
> European studies forum. I don't have time to rewrite them to make them
> more inviting to followup as was suggested on the Endor list.
> Nonetheless, it's obvious (to me and surely to anyone familiar with
> "Beowulf") that my commentaries are missing a lot of the key points one
> could expect to see in a serious discussion of the poem.
>
> If you care to share any insights with our community, I'll tell the
> moderators you have my invitation to rejoin the community.
Always happy to chat about Beowulf and have no problem burying the
hatchet with you in the process, should that be possible.
>
> All I ask is that you NOT make any comments about me, my Tolkien
> essays, etc. No personal commentaries. SF-FANDOM policies remain in
> place and this is not a restriction specific to you, just an admonition
> to resist temptation, however strong it may (once you read some of my
> comments), to talk about me rather than the poem.
>
> There are other people I could invite, and have considered inviting
> (and may yet invite), to comment on the poem, but this is an olive
> branch extended to you.
Thank you Michael. That's very kind. I accept, and will try and
contribute as I have time.
> If you accept the invitation, I'll let the past stay in the past
> between us.
>
> The commentaries use etexts from Project Gutenberg. We started out
> using Frances Gummere's translation for about 15 sections but that
> proved to be such a poor choice I switched over to Leslie Hall's
> translation (which also leaves some things to be desired, but good
> public domain translations are hard to come by).
>
> I've been trying to post 3 sections a week but haven't always been able
> to do that. I posted 6 last night and brought us up to section XXX.
>
> http://www.sf-fandom.com/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=29
>
> --
> Hallowed are the Ori -- in their own minds. Frankly, I think they owe
> me $50.
>
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| Re: Tolkien and Wagner (was re: Best books about Tolkien / Middle-Earth) [message #300436 ] |
Sa, 15 Juli 2006 19:38 |
|
Michael [at] xenite.org wrote:
> Stargate-SG1 and Stargate: Atlantis start up again tonight. And my
> girl is coming back to town. I should have dated a geek....
Thank Eru for DVR's. How ever did we live without them?
-- FotW
Reality is for those who cannot cope with Middle-earth.
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