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Fantasy » alt.fan.harry-potter » Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers ***
| Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers *** [message #300130] |
Do, 13 Juli 2006 23:38 |
|
Probably the conclusions here have been posted before. But I've been
thinking about the events that happened at Godric's Hollow and Privet
Drive and have come to some conclusions.
Given:
1) There is a day between the incident at Godric's Hollow and the time
Hadrig delivers baby Harry to Privet Drive. (This is widely accepted as
per http://www.hp-lexicon.org/timelines/essays/timeline_potters. html)
2) Hagrid can't apparate or you can't apparate with a baby.
3) Hagrid did not plan on meeting Sirius and getting his bike.
4) Then how did Hagrid plan on getting the baby to Privet Drive in time
to meet Dunbledore? Flying on Sirius' bike he hardly got there on time.
Conclusion 1: Hagrid went to Godric's Hollow with some means of
transport, most likely a flying transport.
Given the above and:
1) Hagrid does not use or does not prefer to use brooms. And he did not
possess a gryphon or a dragon at the time.
2) He left the means he intended to use at Godric's Hollow at Godric's
Hollow or somehow that is inconsequential.
Conclusion 2: Hagrid went to Godric's Hollow on a Thestral. Upon
burrowing Sirius' bike, the Thestral returned to Hogwarts by itself.
Given the above and the following observations:
1) Sirius was worried about the Potters but chooses to fly to Godric's
Hollow rather than apparate. The logical choice would be to leave the
bike somewhere and apparate, apparating back to the bike if needed.
2) Dumbledore does not go to Godric's Hollow himself to pick up Harry
but sends Hadrig by Thestral (we conclude).
3) McGonogall goes to Privet Drive and waits the whole day for Hagrid.
If she was really worried (or if she was evil) then she would have gone
to Godric's Hollow herself. If Hagrid told her where he was meeting
Dumbledore later, why wouldn't he tell her about Godric's Hollow? It's
not because of the Fidelius Charm. After Hagrid delivers Harry, they
all talk about finding Harry at Godric's Hollow.
4) If Sirius and Peter Pettigrew are still alive, then how can
Dumbledore, Hagrid and McGonogall speak about Harry and the Potters at
Godric's Hollow that night? If the secret dies with the Secret Keeper
and the supposed Secret Keeper is still alive and in Azkaban but the
real Secret Keeper is supposed to be dead but is in fact alive, how can
Ron, Hermione, Sirius, Lupin, and others talk later on about Harry and
the Potters at Godric's Hollow? No matter how you slice it, it's not
possible for the secret to be the existence of the Godric's Hollow or
the fact that the Potter's were hiding in Godric's Hollow. The location
of Godric's Hollow must be secret. (Of course, the backfired curse
could have had all sorts of repurcussion including the removal of the
Fidelius Charm. The backfire did almost destroy the house. But then if
the Fidelius Charm is destoryed what explains 1, 2 and 3 above?)
5) If muggles are swarming about Godric's Hollow then why aren't
Ministry of Magic staffers there to hush the incident?
Conclusion 3: You cannot apparate at Godric's Hollow. In fact, the
location of Godric's Hollow is the secret of the Secret Keeper. But a
Thestral, a magical creature, can bypass wizard protections (much like
elves can apparate in Hogwarts ground) if the Thestral had been to
Godric's Hollow before.
Given the above and:
1) Only Sirius knew that Pettigrew was the Secret Keeper.
2) Only Sirius and Hagrid (on a Thestral) show up at Godric's Hollow
that night.
Conclusion 4: Most likely, none of the following knew the secret
location of Godric's Hollow: Dumbledore, Hagrid, McGonogall, Lupin,
Snape, anyone at the Ministry of Magic.
Prediction 1: Hagrid will tell Harry that he needs to take a Thestral
to Godric's Hollow in book 7.
Given the above and:
1) How did whole wizarding world know what happened at Godric's Hollow
given that it took Hagrid a day of flying to and from Godric's Hollow?
Dumbledore and McGonogall speak of the celebrations taking place during
the intervening day.
2) We can suppose that Hagrid met no one other than Sirius after
leaving Hogwarts. We can suppose that Pettigrew went into hiding after
the curse backfired. And we can suppose that Sirius went undercover
after leaving his bike with Hagrid. So the wizarding world did not here
the news from Hagrid, Pettigrew or Sirius.
3) The Death Eater's continue operating after Godric's Hollow. They
torture the Longbottoms at least two day's after Godric's Hollow. So we
can assume that they are not sure of what events took place at Godric's
Hollow.
4) We know that Dumbledore told Hagrid who told McGonogall. So
Dumbledore knew about it first. But how did he know?
5) Dumbledore did not go to Godric's Hollow or he would have picked up
Harry.
6) Dumbledore knew details about what happened when he was at Privet
Drive (Lilly's sacrifice for example) without having been at Godric's
Hollow or having seen Harry before Privet Drive (if he had seen Harry
before Privet Drive, why didn't he take Harry to Privet Drive). How did
Dumbledore know so much?
Conclusion 5: Someone was at Godric's hollow who told Dumbledore all
that happened.
Given the above and:
1) The person or creature who told Dumbledore what happened at Godric's
Hollow had to know the secret or had to be able to bypass Godric's
Hollow secret location.
2) Certainly Sirius did not tell Dumbledore, he got there at the same
time as Hagrid because Sirius went undercover to search for Pettigrew.
Pettigrew was probably at Godric's Hollow
( http://www.hp-lexicon.org/timelines/essays/timeline_potters. html).
Certainly Pettigrew did not tell Dumbledore because Pettigrew was in
hiding (or if he had gone to Dumbledore then he either would have had
no fear of Sirius or Dumbledore would have known the truth). If Lupin
had been there and told Dumbledore, why didn't he rescue Harry? The
same logic applies to Snape. If Snape had been there why didn't he
rescue Harry (if Snape is good) or take Harry to the Death Eaters (if
Snape is bad)?
3) That someone could have been a house-elf, a portrait or Fawkes. All
have the required abilities. But no house-elf or portrait seems likely.
Conclusion 6: Fawkes is the only one that could have been at Godric's
Hollow and told Dumbledore everything. Fawkes is magical and
exceptional enough to bypass the protections at Godric's Hollow. Fawkes
is intelligent enough to understand everything that happened that
night. Lastly, Fawkes was trusted by Dumbledore.
Reconstruction: Voldemort and Pettigrew arrive at Godric's Hollow.
Voldemort kills James and Lilly Potter. Voldemort tries to kill Harry
but the curse backfires. Pettigrew leaves (with Voldemort's wand and
perhaps Voldemort). Fawkes is at Godrics Hollow and witnesses all. He
flies back to Hogwarts and tells Dumbledore. Dumbledore assigns the
task of picking up the baby to Hagrid because the Thestral must be used
(that is, it would take Dumbledore the same amount of time to get to
Godric's Hollow as it would take Hagrid). Hagrid tells all to
McGonogall. She waits at Privet Drive because she cannot go to Godric
Hollow's secret location. Dumbledore then informs the rest of the
wizarding world. Celebrations start but the Ministry of Magic cannot
send a cleanup crew to Godric Hollow's secret location. Hagrid arrives
and meets Sirius. Sirius gives Hadrig his bike. The Thestral flies back
to Hogwarts alone. Hagrid takes Sirius bike and flies to Privet Drive.
The 3 flights (Fawkes to Hogwarts, Thestral to Godric's Hollow, and
Sirius' bike to Privet Drive) account for most of the missing day.
Meta-considerations:
This reconstruction also has the added benefit that it explains some
previously unexplained things. For one thing, Thestral's. Why did JK
introduce Thestrals? They really don't add anything to the plot or
characters or flavor unless they are to be used in book 7.
|
|
|
| Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers *** [message #300131 ] |
Do, 13 Juli 2006 23:53 |
|
ag30476 [at] gmail.com wrote:
> Probably the conclusions here have been posted before. But I've been
> thinking about the events that happened at Godric's Hollow and Privet
> Drive and have come to some conclusions.
>
> Given:
> 1) There is a day between the incident at Godric's Hollow and the time
> Hadrig delivers baby Harry to Privet Drive. (This is widely accepted as
> per http://www.hp-lexicon.org/timelines/essays/timeline_potters. html)
>
> 2) Hagrid can't apparate or you can't apparate with a baby.
>
> 3) Hagrid did not plan on meeting Sirius and getting his bike.
>
> 4) Then how did Hagrid plan on getting the baby to Privet Drive in time
> to meet Dunbledore? Flying on Sirius' bike he hardly got there on time.
>
>
> Conclusion 1: Hagrid went to Godric's Hollow with some means of
> transport, most likely a flying transport.
>
>
> Given the above and:
> 1) Hagrid does not use or does not prefer to use brooms. And he did not
> possess a gryphon or a dragon at the time.
>
> 2) He left the means he intended to use at Godric's Hollow at Godric's
> Hollow or somehow that is inconsequential.
>
>
> Conclusion 2: Hagrid went to Godric's Hollow on a Thestral. Upon
> burrowing Sirius' bike, the Thestral returned to Hogwarts by itself.
>
>
> Given the above and the following observations:
> 1) Sirius was worried about the Potters but chooses to fly to Godric's
> Hollow rather than apparate. The logical choice would be to leave the
> bike somewhere and apparate, apparating back to the bike if needed.
>
> 2) Dumbledore does not go to Godric's Hollow himself to pick up Harry
> but sends Hadrig by Thestral (we conclude).
>
> 3) McGonogall goes to Privet Drive and waits the whole day for Hagrid.
> If she was really worried (or if she was evil) then she would have gone
> to Godric's Hollow herself. If Hagrid told her where he was meeting
> Dumbledore later, why wouldn't he tell her about Godric's Hollow? It's
> not because of the Fidelius Charm. After Hagrid delivers Harry, they
> all talk about finding Harry at Godric's Hollow.
>
> 4) If Sirius and Peter Pettigrew are still alive, then how can
> Dumbledore, Hagrid and McGonogall speak about Harry and the Potters at
> Godric's Hollow that night? If the secret dies with the Secret Keeper
> and the supposed Secret Keeper is still alive and in Azkaban but the
> real Secret Keeper is supposed to be dead but is in fact alive, how can
> Ron, Hermione, Sirius, Lupin, and others talk later on about Harry and
> the Potters at Godric's Hollow? No matter how you slice it, it's not
> possible for the secret to be the existence of the Godric's Hollow or
> the fact that the Potter's were hiding in Godric's Hollow. The location
> of Godric's Hollow must be secret. (Of course, the backfired curse
> could have had all sorts of repurcussion including the removal of the
> Fidelius Charm. The backfire did almost destroy the house. But then if
> the Fidelius Charm is destoryed what explains 1, 2 and 3 above?)
>
> 5) If muggles are swarming about Godric's Hollow then why aren't
> Ministry of Magic staffers there to hush the incident?
>
>
> Conclusion 3: You cannot apparate at Godric's Hollow. In fact, the
> location of Godric's Hollow is the secret of the Secret Keeper. But a
> Thestral, a magical creature, can bypass wizard protections (much like
> elves can apparate in Hogwarts ground) if the Thestral had been to
> Godric's Hollow before.
>
>
> Given the above and:
> 1) Only Sirius knew that Pettigrew was the Secret Keeper.
>
> 2) Only Sirius and Hagrid (on a Thestral) show up at Godric's Hollow
> that night.
>
>
> Conclusion 4: Most likely, none of the following knew the secret
> location of Godric's Hollow: Dumbledore, Hagrid, McGonogall, Lupin,
> Snape, anyone at the Ministry of Magic.
>
>
> Prediction 1: Hagrid will tell Harry that he needs to take a Thestral
> to Godric's Hollow in book 7.
>
>
> Given the above and:
> 1) How did whole wizarding world know what happened at Godric's Hollow
> given that it took Hagrid a day of flying to and from Godric's Hollow?
> Dumbledore and McGonogall speak of the celebrations taking place during
> the intervening day.
>
> 2) We can suppose that Hagrid met no one other than Sirius after
> leaving Hogwarts. We can suppose that Pettigrew went into hiding after
> the curse backfired. And we can suppose that Sirius went undercover
> after leaving his bike with Hagrid. So the wizarding world did not here
> the news from Hagrid, Pettigrew or Sirius.
>
> 3) The Death Eater's continue operating after Godric's Hollow. They
> torture the Longbottoms at least two day's after Godric's Hollow. So we
> can assume that they are not sure of what events took place at Godric's
> Hollow.
>
> 4) We know that Dumbledore told Hagrid who told McGonogall. So
> Dumbledore knew about it first. But how did he know?
>
> 5) Dumbledore did not go to Godric's Hollow or he would have picked up
> Harry.
>
> 6) Dumbledore knew details about what happened when he was at Privet
> Drive (Lilly's sacrifice for example) without having been at Godric's
> Hollow or having seen Harry before Privet Drive (if he had seen Harry
> before Privet Drive, why didn't he take Harry to Privet Drive). How did
> Dumbledore know so much?
>
>
> Conclusion 5: Someone was at Godric's hollow who told Dumbledore all
> that happened.
>
>
> Given the above and:
> 1) The person or creature who told Dumbledore what happened at Godric's
> Hollow had to know the secret or had to be able to bypass Godric's
> Hollow secret location.
>
> 2) Certainly Sirius did not tell Dumbledore, he got there at the same
> time as Hagrid because Sirius went undercover to search for Pettigrew.
> Pettigrew was probably at Godric's Hollow
> ( http://www.hp-lexicon.org/timelines/essays/timeline_potters. html).
> Certainly Pettigrew did not tell Dumbledore because Pettigrew was in
> hiding (or if he had gone to Dumbledore then he either would have had
> no fear of Sirius or Dumbledore would have known the truth). If Lupin
> had been there and told Dumbledore, why didn't he rescue Harry? The
> same logic applies to Snape. If Snape had been there why didn't he
> rescue Harry (if Snape is good) or take Harry to the Death Eaters (if
> Snape is bad)?
>
> 3) That someone could have been a house-elf, a portrait or Fawkes. All
> have the required abilities. But no house-elf or portrait seems likely.
>
>
>
> Conclusion 6: Fawkes is the only one that could have been at Godric's
> Hollow and told Dumbledore everything. Fawkes is magical and
> exceptional enough to bypass the protections at Godric's Hollow. Fawkes
> is intelligent enough to understand everything that happened that
> night. Lastly, Fawkes was trusted by Dumbledore.
>
>
> Reconstruction: Voldemort and Pettigrew arrive at Godric's Hollow.
> Voldemort kills James and Lilly Potter. Voldemort tries to kill Harry
> but the curse backfires. Pettigrew leaves (with Voldemort's wand and
> perhaps Voldemort). Fawkes is at Godrics Hollow and witnesses all. He
> flies back to Hogwarts and tells Dumbledore. Dumbledore assigns the
> task of picking up the baby to Hagrid because the Thestral must be used
> (that is, it would take Dumbledore the same amount of time to get to
> Godric's Hollow as it would take Hagrid). Hagrid tells all to
> McGonogall. She waits at Privet Drive because she cannot go to Godric
> Hollow's secret location. Dumbledore then informs the rest of the
> wizarding world. Celebrations start but the Ministry of Magic cannot
> send a cleanup crew to Godric Hollow's secret location. Hagrid arrives
> and meets Sirius. Sirius gives Hadrig his bike. The Thestral flies back
> to Hogwarts alone. Hagrid takes Sirius bike and flies to Privet Drive.
> The 3 flights (Fawkes to Hogwarts, Thestral to Godric's Hollow, and
> Sirius' bike to Privet Drive) account for most of the missing day.
>
>
> Meta-considerations:
> This reconstruction also has the added benefit that it explains some
> previously unexplained things. For one thing, Thestral's. Why did JK
> introduce Thestrals? They really don't add anything to the plot or
> characters or flavor unless they are to be used in book 7.
Just to address one of your statements....It's quite possible that
Snape was the one who alerted DD to the events at GH, either through
his physically being there and/or through his Dark Mark disappearing
when LV became Vapormort.,
|
|
|
| Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers *** [message #300132 ] |
Do, 13 Juli 2006 23:59 |
|
wadkin2... [at] yahoo.com wrote:
> Just to address one of your statements....It's quite possible that
> Snape was the one who alerted DD to the events at GH, either through
> his physically being there and/or through his Dark Mark disappearing
> when LV became Vapormort.,
Yes it's possible. But not likely IMHO. Any wizard who was at Godric's
Hollow would have a reason to take Harry (either to DD or to the DE's)
except for Pettigrew who had every reason to hide (for fear of his
life).
And although SS could alert DD to the missing mark, it still does not
explain how DD knew all he knew without going to Godric's Hollow
himself or seeing Harry before Privet Drive.
But I don't claim my argument is absolutely correct.
|
|
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| Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers *** [message #300134 ] |
Fr, 14 Juli 2006 02:11 |
|
In message
<news:1152826705.026819.109060 [at] m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com>
ag30476 [at] gmail.com enriched us with:
>
> Probably the conclusions here have been posted before. But I've
> been thinking about the events that happened at Godric's Hollow
> and Privet Drive and have come to some conclusions.
>
> Given:
> 1) There is a day between the incident at Godric's Hollow and the
> time Hadrig delivers baby Harry to Privet Drive.
Yes.
> 2) Hagrid can't apparate or you can't apparate with a baby.
Hagrid cannot apparate. Though I don't know if it is stated directly in
the books, Hagrid was expelled in his third year, and it would not only
be illegal to teach him to apparate (the ministry certainly wouldn't've
done it), but it is also unlikely that he would have had the magical
skills necessary (Rowling has said something somewhere about Hagrid
still, after book 2, being very inept at magic).
> 3) Hagrid did not plan on meeting Sirius and getting his bike.
Right.
> 4) Then how did Hagrid plan on getting the baby to Privet Drive
> in time to meet Dunbledore? Flying on Sirius' bike he hardly
> got there on time.
That is not, IMO, the interesting question. Harry & company goes from
Hogwarts in Scotland to London on Thestral-back in what appears to be
about the same time it takes the Hogwarts Express to travel the same
distance (or perhaps a little less -- it is difficult to say exactly
when they leave Hogwarts and when they arrive, but it seems to be late-
ish when they leave, and Harry gets back in the wee hours), so I feel
completely sure that Hagrid had lots of extra time. It is not important
how he had planned to get from Godric's Hollow to Surrey, but rather
what he did in the time when he was not travelling.
> Conclusion 1: Hagrid went to Godric's Hollow with some means of
> transport, most likely a flying transport.
Or he was taken there by side-along Apparation (e.g. by Dumbledore, who
would then have moved on immediately).
Or he used the Floo network to Godrics Hollow, and chose to accept
Sirius' offer in order not to have to take the baby to an outsider
wizard home.
Or he was visiting (or stationed) somewhere in Godric's Hollow to look
out for the Potters. In that scenario he had a message from Dumbledore
(possibly by Floo).
Don't forget that Hagrid arrived before anyone else, and any flying
transport would take hours getting there, at which point it would be
too late.
<snip>
> Given the above and the following observations:
Now you're basing further speculations on your previous conclusion
although these have some consistency problems. It is always risky to
base further speculation on prior conclusions without checking the
first step beforehand.
> 1) Sirius was worried about the Potters but chooses to fly to
> Godric's Hollow rather than apparate. The logical choice
> would be to leave the bike somewhere and apparate, apparating
> back to the bike if needed.
Sirius wasn't /that/ worried. He had been to check on Peter, and then
went to check on the Potters. He was a flamboyant sort, and thus
preferred his motorbike as his standard means of transport.
> 2) Dumbledore does not go to Godric's Hollow himself to pick up
> Harry but sends Hadrig by Thestral (we conclude).
Shall we not just say that he sent Hagrid . . .
Incidentally I find it difficult to believe that Dumbledore was nowhere
near Godric's Hollow that day, but for reasons unaccounted for he chose
to have Hagrid pick up Harry (what did he want to be unencumbered for?)
> 3) McGonogall goes to Privet Drive and waits the whole day for
> Hagrid.
For Dumbledore, actually ("the real reason she had been waiting on a
could hard wall all day"). She wanted confirmation of the rumours
regarding Voldemort and the Potters.
> If she was really worried (or if she was evil) then she would
> have gone to Godric's Hollow herself.
If she knew to look there.
> If Hagrid told her where he was meeting Dumbledore later, why
> wouldn't he tell her about Godric's Hollow?
Because she wanted Dumbledore and Hagrid didn't know where Dumbledore
would be later. Obviously McGonagall spoke to Hagrid after Hagrid had
been told where to take Harry (at some time during the night).
> It's not because of the Fidelius Charm. After Hagrid delivers
> Harry, they all talk about finding Harry at Godric's Hollow.
That doesn't matter.
You don't think that Narcissa and Bellatrix were unable to speak of the
old Black town-house after Dumbledore put the Fidelius charm over it?
Narcissa communicated with Kreacher, and of course she knew where he
was from etc. Had they tried to go there, however, they would not have
found the house.
> 4) If Sirius and Peter Pettigrew are still alive, then how can
> Dumbledore, Hagrid and McGonogall speak about Harry and the
> Potters at Godric's Hollow that night?
They open their mouths and make the appropriate noises ;-)
The problem with respect to the Fidelius Charm is that Hagrid was able
to find Harry in the first place -- the rest doesn't matter.
As for that we can suppose one of several things.
A) Harry wasn't really under the Fidelius Charm, and with the deaths of
his parents, he got 'released' from the charm.
B) The secret was akin to the later secret for the Order. Something
like "The hiding place of James and Lily Potter is their house in
Godric's Hollow". With the deaths of James and Lily and the
destruction of their house, the Fidelius Charm is void (the secret
doesn't exist any longer).
C) Dumbledore had been given a paper (much as Harry was), purportedly
written by Sirius (in order to keep the secret of whom the Secret-
Keeper was), but actually written by Wormtail, that revealed the
secret. Dumbledore showed that paper to Hagrid before sending him
to Godric's Hollow (whether before or after the attack). This would,
of course, alse explain why Hagrid couldn't tell McGonagall to look
for Dumbledore there.
> No matter how you slice it, it's not possible for the secret to be
> the existence of the Godric's Hollow
Of course not -- Godric's Hollow is a /village/ for God's sake! A lot
of people lived there.
> or the fact that the Potter's were hiding in Godric's Hollow.
That, of course, was the secret, yes.
> The location of Godric's Hollow must be secret.
Can't be -- you can't have a whole village secret. Not even of the
Potters' house in Godric's Hollow, would work, IMO. The secret would
have been parallel to the secret on the Headquarters, and the effect of
it was the same.
> (Of course, the backfired curse could have had all sorts of
> repurcussion including the removal of the Fidelius Charm.
Naturally that could also have been the case.
<snip>
> 5) If muggles are swarming about Godric's Hollow then why aren't
> Ministry of Magic staffers there to hush the incident?
Why should they? As far as they know nothing has happened to alert them
-- a house in some village has blown up, but what's that to them?
> Conclusion 3: You cannot apparate at Godric's Hollow.
Very unlikely. Not only do we see the twins Apparate inside the
Headquarters in OotP, but Mr Weasley tells Harry (as they go to Harry's
hearing) that he usually Apparated to work (though, obviously, we can't
know if he has to step outside the house to do that).
The social ban on Apparation into a house would of course apply, but of
course there couldn't be any general protections against Apparation in
the whole village and surrounding areas -- that would be a dead
giveaway.
> In fact, the location of Godric's Hollow is the secret of the
> Secret Keeper.
As said before, I don't think so. And I think it very unlikely that
Hagrid used a Thestral, as it would take too long to get there from
Hogwarts (he might, of course, have been stationed nearby, but that's
another discussion, I'd say).
> Given the above and:
Well, basically I find the above to be, in combination, nigh
impossible.
<snip>
> Conclusion 4: Most likely, none of the following knew the secret
> location of Godric's Hollow: Dumbledore, Hagrid, McGonogall,
> Lupin, Snape, anyone at the Ministry of Magic.
I've already demonstrated how Dumbledore and Hagrid could have known
the secret without knowing who the Secret-Keeper was, but the secret
had only been in place for about a week, so it's probably very limited
how many people could have been told (i.e. shown the hypothetical
letter).
> Prediction 1: Hagrid will tell Harry that he needs to take a
> Thestral to Godric's Hollow in book 7.
Harry has already expressed his wish to go there, so he doesn't need
Hagrid's encouragement. As Harry (as far as we know) doesn't know how
to find Godric's Hollow, and since he (again as far as we know) hasn't
had any classes in aerial navigation, he might need the navigational
talents of a Thestral, but not because of any Fidelius Charms or anti-
apparating barriers.
> Given the above and:
I'm sorry, but as far as I am concerned, anything that relies on your
above conclusions must by default be false, as the house of cards has
not only grown shaky, but has already fallen.
> 1) How did whole wizarding world know what happened at Godric's
> Hollow given that it took Hagrid a day of flying to and from
> Godric's Hollow?
You are mistakenly assuming that Hagrid spent a lot of time en route,
but his fast arrival (/before/ Sirius and any Muggles) proves
otherwise. And, knowing Hagrid (and his wagging tongue), it wouldn't
last long before the rumour got started -- enough to have the wizard
world out on the streets the next morning.
> 2) We can suppose that Hagrid met no one other than Sirius
> after leaving Hogwarts.
I see no reason to suppose any such thing. He definitely spoke with
McGonagall, and, given Hagrid's nature, it would even seem unlikely
that he didn't meet anyone else (pining for a small one -- "I on'y had
one gallon, I swear!")
> We can suppose that Pettigrew went into hiding after the curse
> backfired.
Of course -- as is stated abundantly in PoA he knew that he would be
hunted by both Death Eaters and the Order of the Phoenix (he must have
counted on Sirius telling the others).
> And we can suppose that Sirius went undercover after leaving his
> bike with Hagrid.
No. Sirius went after Peter and caught up with him at some point the
next day (PoA) while there was still many Muggles in the streets, so
definitely /before/ Harry was given to the Dursleys.
But Sirius didn't have any reason to stay away from other wizards at
that point, even if he didn't want to announce his arrival to Peter by
using his motorbike.
> So the wizarding world did not here the news from Hagrid, Pettigrew
> or Sirius.
Not Pettigrew, anyway. For the other two the conclusion is without
basis, IMO.
> 3) The Death Eater's continue operating after Godric's Hollow.
Yes, obviously. You cannot, however, assume that they operated as a
coherent organisation any more. More likely it was smaller groups of
people who did know each other as Death Eaters (remember that they
didn't all know each other).
> They torture the Longbottoms at least two day's after Godric's
> Hollow. So we can assume that they are not sure of what events
> took place at Godric's Hollow.
Of course not -- the majority of the magical community had it wrong,
didn't they. They believed that Voldemort was dead, but the Death
Eaters had reasons to believe otherwise (and then, many among them
apparently also believed him dead).
> 4) We know that Dumbledore told Hagrid who told McGonogall. So
> Dumbledore knew about it first. But how did he know?
That is anybody's guess. As far as I know, there is no indication of
how Dumbledore would know, unless he had a spy installed in Godric's
Hollow to watch over the Potters (whom he obviously knew were staying
in the village).
> 5) Dumbledore did not go to Godric's Hollow or he would have
> picked up Harry.
I don't agree with that. Dumbledore would not pick up Harry himself if
carrying a baby around was likely to become cumbersome. As I have said
earlier, I find it very difficult to believe that Dumbledore did /not/
go to Godric's Hollow -- his knowledge of the events is too complete
for him not to have gone there himself to investigate the crime scene
(remember the scenes in the cave in HBP, how Dumbledore is capable of
finding and analysing traces of magic).
<snip rest>
The remainder, building upon an already fallacious (IMO) foundation
doesn't contain anything real to build upon. It is quite possibly that
Dumbledore had a spy in Godric's Hollow, but either that spy must have
known the secret, or he cannot have known what happened prior to the
explosion. It is, IMO, more likely that Dumbledore reached his
conclusions through a careful investigation of the scene (heavily aided
by the author).
--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail is <t.forch(a)email.dk>
To make a name for learning
when other roads are barred,
take something very easy
and make it very hard.
- Piet Hein, /Wide Road/
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| Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers *** [message #300143 ] |
Fr, 14 Juli 2006 03:27 |
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Troels Forchhammer wrote:
> > 4) Then how did Hagrid plan on getting the baby to Privet Drive
> > in time to meet Dunbledore? Flying on Sirius' bike he hardly
> > got there on time.
>
> That is not, IMO, the interesting question...It is not important
> how he had planned to get from Godric's Hollow to Surrey, but rather
> what he did in the time when he was not travelling.
It's not necessarily an important question but just how did he plan to
go back?
> > Conclusion 1: Hagrid went to Godric's Hollow with some means of
> > transport, most likely a flying transport.
>
> Or he was taken there by side-along Apparation (e.g. by Dumbledore, who
> would then have moved on immediately).
Then why didn't Dumbledore go himself?
> Or he used the Floo network to Godrics Hollow, and chose to accept
> Sirius' offer in order not to have to take the baby to an outsider
> wizard home.
If the Floo network was operating to GH why didn't Lilly and Harry Floo
out of there? OK maybe there is no Floo network IN GH or you can't Floo
with a baby? Why didn't Sirius Floo to GH? Floo is certainly faster
than his bike.
> Or he was visiting (or stationed) somewhere in Godric's Hollow to look
> out for the Potters. In that scenario he had a message from Dumbledore
> (possibly by Floo).
If Hagrid was near GH then we must suppose McGonogall was near GH too.
Otherwise, he could not tell McGonogall. Why would both Hagrid and
McGonogall be near GH? Or maybeHagrid was near GH, goes to Hogwarts,
tells McG, then goes back to GH. Simple, no? Regardless, DD has to send
a message to Hagrid (no supposedly stationed near GH) to pick up Harry
and go to Privet Drive? How does DD now Harry is alive without going to
GH himself? Hagrid at that point cannot know Harry is alive (stationed
near GH and before DD's message). And, again, what means is Hagrid
going to use to get from GH to Privet Drive (before he meets unintendly
with Sirius)?
> Don't forget that Hagrid arrived before anyone else, and any flying
> transport would take hours getting there, at which point it would be
> too late.
Good point. Sirius Black probably thought the same when he discovered
to fly on his bike to GH after discovering Pettigrew is not where he is
supposed to be. Yet Sirius flies to GH getting there only moments after
Hagrid.
> Now you're basing further speculations on your previous conclusion
> although these have some consistency problems. It is always risky to
> base further speculation on prior conclusions without checking the
> first step beforehand.
That is, admittedly, a problem with the conclusions I posted. But any
reconstruction must involve deductions from what is written and then
further deductions after that.
> > 1) Sirius was worried about the Potters but chooses to fly to
> > Godric's Hollow rather than apparate. The logical choice
> > would be to leave the bike somewhere and apparate, apparating
> > back to the bike if needed.
>
> Sirius wasn't /that/ worried. He had been to check on Peter, and then
> went to check on the Potters. He was a flamboyant sort, and thus
> preferred his motorbike as his standard means of transport.
Sirius is flamboyant but this is a life and death matter. Sirius'
flamboyance may have cost the lives of James and Lilly. That's not
explored much in the guilt that the major character have over the death
of the Potters. Rather, most worry about misplaced trust (Sirius on
Pettigrew, James and Sirius against Lupin, Snape on Voldemort, etc.)
> > 2) Dumbledore does not go to Godric's Hollow himself to pick up
> > Harry but sends Hadrig by Thestral (we conclude).
>
> Shall we not just say that he sent Hagrid . . .
That leaves a lot to be explained. Hagrid is a much worse choice to
pick up Harry and would could be more important than picking up Harry
and going to the scene of the crime to see what happened. Hagrid can't
perform any serious magic. Hagrid can't fly or apparate by himself.
Hagrid can't explore GH for clues as to what happened.
> Incidentally I find it difficult to believe that Dumbledore was nowhere
> near Godric's Hollow that day, but for reasons unaccounted for he chose
> to have Hagrid pick up Harry (what did he want to be unencumbered for?)
Yes it is hard to believe that DD was not near GH but according to the
canon there is no evidence (of course this does not mean he wasn't as
you suppose). And curiously we are left, as you say, with "unaccounted"
for why he did not pick up Harry himself. My attempt (however weak) is
to explain that DD could not be at GH (because the location of GH is
the secret).
> > 3) McGonogall goes to Privet Drive and waits the whole day for
> > Hagrid.
> For Dumbledore, actually ("the real reason she had been waiting on a
> could hard wall all day"). She wanted confirmation of the rumours
> regarding Voldemort and the Potters.
Well actually I meant "waist the whole day for DD (or for Hagrid if McG
is evil)"
> > If she was really worried (or if she was evil) then she would
> > have gone to Godric's Hollow herself.
>
> If she knew to look there.
Yes or if she knew how to get there. But if she did not know to look
there then we must suppose that Hadrig spilled the beans (as he is apt
to do) about everything except that he was first going to GH. How
convenient for the plot.
> > If Hagrid told her where he was meeting Dumbledore later, why
> > wouldn't he tell her about Godric's Hollow?
>
> Because she wanted Dumbledore and Hagrid didn't know where Dumbledore
> would be later. Obviously McGonagall spoke to Hagrid after Hagrid had
> been told where to take Harry (at some time during the night).
She waited the whole day at one spot to find her headmaster and fellow
member of the OotP? She had no way to find or communicate with DD? She
could not send him an owl?
I will admit that my logic works better if McG is evil. (But it's not
necessary that McG be evil.)
> > It's not because of the Fidelius Charm. After Hagrid delivers
> > Harry, they all talk about finding Harry at Godric's Hollow.
>
> That doesn't matter.
>
> You don't think that Narcissa and Bellatrix were unable to speak of the
> old Black town-house after Dumbledore put the Fidelius charm over it?
> Narcissa communicated with Kreacher, and of course she knew where he
> was from etc. Had they tried to go there, however, they would not have
> found the house.
Thanks for agreeing. The secret is not the hiding place but the
location of the hiding place. (Yes this means exceptionally powerful
Fidelius charm can hide the location of the well-known GH from the
entire wizarding world)
> > 4) If Sirius and Peter Pettigrew are still alive, then how can
> > Dumbledore, Hagrid and McGonogall speak about Harry and the
> > Potters at Godric's Hollow that night?
>
> They open their mouths and make the appropriate noises ;-)
>
> The problem with respect to the Fidelius Charm is that Hagrid was able
> to find Harry in the first place -- the rest doesn't matter.
>
> As for that we can suppose one of several things.
Yes that is a problem. Certainly other things can be supposed. Like for
example, the Hagrid was in on the secret. But that seems unlikely to
me. If Hagrid knew the location then certainly DD would have known. But
if DD knew how to get to GH then why did he not go himself?
> A) Harry wasn't really under the Fidelius Charm, and with the deaths of
> his parents, he got 'released' from the charm.
That seems a strange secret don't it, hiding only James and Lilly but
not Harry.
> B) The secret was akin to the later secret for the Order. Something
> like "The hiding place of James and Lily Potter is their house in
> Godric's Hollow". With the deaths of James and Lily and the
> destruction of their house, the Fidelius Charm is void (the secret
> doesn't exist any longer).
That's the same as A. It would be strange to hide the location of James
and Lilly bt not Harry (Voldemort's ultimate target).
> C) Dumbledore had been given a paper (much as Harry was), purportedly
> written by Sirius (in order to keep the secret of whom the Secret-
> Keeper was), but actually written by Wormtail, that revealed the
> secret. Dumbledore showed that paper to Hagrid before sending him
> to Godric's Hollow (whether before or after the attack). This would,
> of course, alse explain why Hagrid couldn't tell McGonagall to look
> for Dumbledore there.
That would work to let Hagrid get to GH. But then that would mean the
secret is known by DD. Which raises again of why DD didn't go himself.
Actually, it has been supposed (I think on mugglenet) that Sirius
handed out the papers (to DD and others) thereby perpetuating the false
impression that he, Sirius, was the secret keeper.
> > No matter how you slice it, it's not possible for the secret to be
> > the existence of the Godric's Hollow
>
> Of course not -- Godric's Hollow is a /village/ for God's sake! A lot
> of people lived there.
Right.
> > or the fact that the Potter's were hiding in Godric's Hollow.
>
> That, of course, was the secret, yes.
If that is the secret (the fact that Harry was hidden in GH) then
people could not talk about the fact that the Harry was hidden in GH
unless we suppose that the secret is that Harry's parents were hiding
in GH and their (Harry's parents) death broke the charm - a very
strange secret as I have said. Or you have to suppose that the secret
did protect the fact the Harry was hidden in GH but the secret is
broken by the backfired curse. But then we would not have to suppose
that Hagrid would have to be shown a piece of paper or that McG could
not be told about GH by Hagrid or that DD could not travel to GH
himself.
> > The location of Godric's Hollow must be secret.
>
> Can't be -- you can't have a whole village secret. Not even of the
> Potters' house in Godric's Hollow, would work, IMO. The secret would
> have been parallel to the secret on the Headquarters, and the effect of
> it was the same.
It does parallel 12 Grimaud. If you try to go to GH, you can't find it.
> > (Of course, the backfired curse could have had all sorts of
> > repurcussion including the removal of the Fidelius Charm.
>
> Naturally that could also have been the case.
But if it was it still does not explain why DD then did not got to GH
or why McG did not go to GH herself. If she had gone to GH herself, she
could have confirmed at least some of the things that DD tells her
hours later.
> > 5) If muggles are swarming about Godric's Hollow then why aren't
> > Ministry of Magic staffers there to hush the incident?
>
> Why should they? As far as they know nothing has happened to alert them
> -- a house in some village has blown up, but what's that to them?
The Ministry seems to know right away when anyone uses magic in front
of muggles (Harry for instance). The house blew up becuase of magic.
Muggles saw something (what exactly we don't know). The ministry should
be there to cast some memory charms at least.
> > Conclusion 3: You cannot apparate at Godric's Hollow.
>
> Very unlikely. Not only do we see the twins Apparate inside the
> Headquarters in OotP, but Mr Weasley tells Harry (as they go to Harry's
> hearing) that he usually Apparated to work (though, obviously, we can't
> know if he has to step outside the house to do that).
>
> The social ban on Apparation into a house would of course apply, but of
> course there couldn't be any general protections against Apparation in
> the whole village and surrounding areas -- that would be a dead
> giveaway.
Exactly. Wizards apparate everywhere except in protected locations like
Hogwarts. If the secret was that Harry and the Potters were hidden in
GH, then why can't DD, Hagrid, Sirius or others apparate there
instantly.
> > In fact, the location of Godric's Hollow is the secret of the
> > Secret Keeper.
>
> As said before, I don't think so. And I think it very unlikely that
> Hagrid used a Thestral, as it would take too long to get there from
> Hogwarts (he might, of course, have been stationed nearby, but that's
> another discussion, I'd say).
Like I said, my reconstruction is an attempt to explain. I'm not saying
it is the only explanation. Yet I find it more likely than others.
Hagrid, whereever he was, must have been sent to GH with some means of
getting to Privet Drive that was not meeting up with Sirius accidently
and getting his bike.
> > Conclusion 4: Most likely, none of the following knew the secret
> > location of Godric's Hollow: Dumbledore, Hagrid, McGonogall,
> > Lupin, Snape, anyone at the Ministry of Magic.
>
> I've already demonstrated how Dumbledore and Hagrid could have known
> the secret without knowing who the Secret-Keeper was, but the secret
> had only been in place for about a week, so it's probably very limited
> how many people could have been told (i.e. shown the hypothetical
> letter).
You're right. DD and Hagrid COULD have know. That does not mean that
they DID. But let us suppose they did. Then why did DD not go to GH
himself?
> > Prediction 1: Hagrid will tell Harry that he needs to take a
> > Thestral to Godric's Hollow in book 7.
>
> Harry has already expressed his wish to go there, so he doesn't need
> Hagrid's encouragement. As Harry (as far as we know) doesn't know how
> to find Godric's Hollow, and since he (again as far as we know) hasn't
> had any classes in aerial navigation, he might need the navigational
> talents of a Thestral, but not because of any Fidelius Charms or anti-
> apparating barriers.
I was not saying that Hagrid will encourage Harry to got GH. Hagrid
will give him a way to get to GH.
> > Given the above and:
>
> I'm sorry, but as far as I am concerned, anything that relies on your
> above conclusions must by default be false, as the house of cards has
> not only grown shaky, but has already fallen.
Not so. You have not disproved any. You have simply given alternatives
that could have happened. Alternatives that could have happened do not
disprove what I have said. Yet the alternatives raise more puzzling
questions than what I have proposed.
> > 1) How did whole wizarding world know what happened at Godric's
> > Hollow given that it took Hagrid a day of flying to and from
> > Godric's Hollow?
>
> You are mistakenly assuming that Hagrid spent a lot of time en route,
> but his fast arrival (/before/ Sirius and any Muggles) proves
> otherwise. And, knowing Hagrid (and his wagging tongue), it wouldn't
> last long before the rumour got started -- enough to have the wizard
> world out on the streets the next morning.
Let us assume that Hagrid's trip takes the lesser part of the missing
day. The exact length time does not matter. Then this means that for
hours (more than 12) DD is aware that something happened at GH but does
not go himself and send Hagrid instead hours later. Or, for hours (more
than 12) DD is not aware of what happened at GH, then when he finds out
he sends the much slower (travel speed-wise) Hagrid to retrieve Harry.
But if Hagrid was stationed near GH (as you suppose) and knew the
secret (as you supposed) would not he alert DD and go to the house on
his own? Then upon finding Harry would not he take the baby and travel
to some safe place (like Hogwarts)? The house of cards is the one you
are building with your assumptions and deductions. ANY reconstruction
of the missing day must be built on assumptions and deduction because
JK has not given us the full picture.
> > 2) We can suppose that Hagrid met no one other than Sirius
> > after leaving Hogwarts.
>
> I see no reason to suppose any such thing. He definitely spoke with
> McGonagall, and, given Hagrid's nature, it would even seem unlikely
> that he didn't meet anyone else (pining for a small one -- "I on'y had
> one gallon, I swear!")
So Sirius possibly costs the Potters their lives by flying to GH on his
bike when he could have apparated there. And Hagrid risks harm coming
to a one year old because he's not responsible. And the great DD, who
trusts Hagrid with his life, is foolish enough to send Hagrid on this
critical mission. Who's builing a house of cards again?
> > And we can suppose that Sirius went undercover after leaving his
> > bike with Hagrid.
>
> No. Sirius went after Peter and caught up with him at some point the
> next day (PoA) while there was still many Muggles in the streets, so
> definitely /before/ Harry was given to the Dursleys.
That is what I said. Are you arguing for arguments sake? Sirius goes
undercover after Pettigrew right away.
> But Sirius didn't have any reason to stay away from other wizards at
> that point, even if he didn't want to announce his arrival to Peter by
> using his motorbike.
Wrong. He was the only one who knew that Pettigrew was the secret
keeper.
> > So the wizarding world did not here the news from Hagrid, Pettigrew
> > or Sirius.
>
> Not Pettigrew, anyway. For the other two the conclusion is without
> basis, IMO.
Hagrid is off babbling at the bar. And Sirius is walking around talking
to people instead of asking if they have seen Pettigrew. Your picture
is weirder than mine.
> > 3) The Death Eater's continue operating after Godric's Hollow.
>
> Yes, obviously. You cannot, however, assume that they operated as a
> coherent organisation any more. More likely it was smaller groups of
> people who did know each other as Death Eaters (remember that they
> didn't all know each other).
I made no such assumption. You should read more carefully. It is
possible, for example, that the DE's knew something happened because
the Dark Mark disappears. And maybe Snape shows that DD that the Dark
Mark disappeared. But this itself cannot explain how DD knew all the
details he knew within 24 hours. And if he did not got to GH how did he
know what he knew. If he did go to GH, why did he not pick up Harry
himself?
> > 4) We know that Dumbledore told Hagrid who told McGonogall. So
> > Dumbledore knew about it first. But how did he know?
>
> That is anybody's guess. As far as I know, there is no indication of
> how Dumbledore would know, unless he had a spy installed in Godric's
> Hollow to watch over the Potters (whom he obviously knew were staying
> in the village).
Good conclusion. Thanks for agreeing with one of my conclusions in my
"house of cards".
> > 5) Dumbledore did not go to Godric's Hollow or he would have
> > picked up Harry.
>
> I don't agree with that. Dumbledore would not pick up Harry himself if
> carrying a baby around was likely to become cumbersome.
LOL
> As I have said earlier, I find it very difficult to believe that Dumbledore
> did /not/ go to Godric's Hollow -- his knowledge of the events is too
> complete for him not to have gone there himself to investigate the crime
> scene (remember the scenes in the cave in HBP, how Dumbledore is capable of
> finding and analysing traces of magic).
Excellent analysis again. DD had to go to GH to know all he knew - wait
why didn't he go to GH and pick up Harry at the same time? Oh yeah,
baby, cumbersome.
> The remainder, building upon an already fallacious (IMO) foundation
> doesn't contain anything real to build upon. It is quite possibly that
> Dumbledore had a spy in Godric's Hollow, but either that spy must have
> known the secret, or he cannot have known what happened prior to the
> explosion. It is, IMO, more likely that Dumbledore reached his
> conclusions through a careful investigation of the scene (heavily aided
> by the author).
Well your foundations are now less fallacious than mine since you have
to make deductions too. The cumbersome baby theory makes sense to you,
but not to me
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| Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers *** [message #300147 ] |
Fr, 14 Juli 2006 05:02 |
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On 13 Jul 2006 14:38:25 -0700, ag30476 [at] gmail.com wrote:
>Fawkes is the only one that could have been at Godric's
>Hollow and told Dumbledore everything.
The last time I looked, Fawkes was a large, brightly-feathered bird.
Do we have any indication in the books that Fawkes can TALK ??
["Just when I think I’m out, they pull me back in again." - Michael
Corleone ]
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| Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers *** [message #300154 ] |
Fr, 14 Juli 2006 05:19 |
|
ag30476 [at] gmail.com escribió:
> Probably the conclusions here have been posted before. But I've been
> thinking about the events that happened at Godric's Hollow and Privet
> Drive and have come to some conclusions.
OK... put glasses on, prepare to read...
> Given:
> 1) There is a day between the incident at Godric's Hollow and the time
> Hadrig delivers baby Harry to Privet Drive. (This is widely accepted as
> per http://www.hp-lexicon.org/timelines/essays/timeline_potters. html)
>
> 2) Hagrid can't apparate or you can't apparate with a baby.
> 3) Hagrid did not plan on meeting Sirius and getting his bike.
> 4) Then how did Hagrid plan on getting the baby to Privet Drive in time
> to meet Dunbledore? Flying on Sirius' bike he hardly got there on time.
> Conclusion 1: Hagrid went to Godric's Hollow with some means of
> transport, most likely a flying transport.
What about a Portkey?
> Given the above and:
> 1) Hagrid does not use or does not prefer to use brooms. And he did not
> possess a gryphon or a dragon at the time.
IICR, he told Umbridge that he wasn't skilled with brooms because of his
size. He might be joking but it makes sense.
> 2) He left the means he intended to use at Godric's Hollow at Godric's
> Hollow or somehow that is inconsequential.
Jo hasn't given a direct answer about whether there was someone else
besides the Potters and LV the night they died but I wouldn't doubt that
Dumbledore put someone there in order to check the place. Whatever
happened to this supposedly person that didn't showed up first than
Hagrid? Who knows. Perhaps some DE were there as well.
> Conclusion 2: Hagrid went to Godric's Hollow on a Thestral. Upon
> burrowing Sirius' bike, the Thestral returned to Hogwarts by itself.
Again, it might be a portkey.
> Given the above and the following observations:
> 1) Sirius was worried about the Potters but chooses to fly to Godric's
> Hollow rather than apparate. The logical choice would be to leave the
> bike somewhere and apparate, apparating back to the bike if needed.
> 2) Dumbledore does not go to Godric's Hollow himself to pick up Harry
> but sends Hadrig by Thestral (we conclude).
>
> 3) McGonogall goes to Privet Drive and waits the whole day for Hagrid.
> If she was really worried (or if she was evil) then she would have gone
> to Godric's Hollow herself. If Hagrid told her where he was meeting
> Dumbledore later, why wouldn't he tell her about Godric's Hollow? It's
> not because of the Fidelius Charm. After Hagrid delivers Harry, they
> all talk about finding Harry at Godric's Hollow.
>
> 4) If Sirius and Peter Pettigrew are still alive, then how can
> Dumbledore, Hagrid and McGonogall speak about Harry and the Potters at
> Godric's Hollow that night?
Could it be that the Fidelius Charm gets broken once the secret is
revealed?
> Conclusion 3: You cannot apparate at Godric's Hollow. In fact, the
> location of Godric's Hollow is the secret of the Secret Keeper. But a
> Thestral, a magical creature, can bypass wizard protections (much like
> elves can apparate in Hogwarts ground) if the Thestral had been to
> Godric's Hollow before.
The secret is not the house or the location but the information that
'the Potters were hiding at Godric's Hollow'. You can get there in
Thestral, but there is no way you might know that the Potters are inside
the house. How? No idea how that charm works: it might be like the
anti-muggle charm; you forget why were you there or simply James and
Lily might be in front of you but you can't see them.
> Given the above and:
> 1) Only Sirius knew that Pettigrew was the Secret Keeper.
> 2) Only Sirius and Hagrid (on a Thestral) show up at Godric's Hollow
> that night.
> Conclusion 4: Most likely, none of the following knew the secret
> location of Godric's Hollow: Dumbledore, Hagrid, McGonogall, Lupin,
> Snape, anyone at the Ministry of Magic.
There is not secret Location of Godric's Hollow. Another theory might be
that Hagrid or any member of the Order where supposed to be watching the
place by turns but not knowing the reason (kinda like in OotP and the
prophecy): and it happened that that night was Hagrid's turn. We know
that Harry received orders from DD that involved Harry, so, he get them
after the attack. If he wasn't there, he probably was the closest person
DD had at the moment.
> Prediction 1: Hagrid will tell Harry that he needs to take a Thestral
> to Godric's Hollow in book 7.
Harry wants to be there. He can use several ways to get there:
Apparition, broomstick, floo, Knight Bus, Portkey and his own
Hippogryff. And muggle ways too.
> Given the above and:
> 1) How did whole wizarding world know what happened at Godric's Hollow
> given that it took Hagrid a day of flying to and from Godric's Hollow?
> Dumbledore and McGonogall speak of the celebrations taking place during
> the intervening day.
But Hagrid must have been meeting people in the way. He was a baby,
wasn't he? He needed to stop to feed him, change him. Also, he probably
took the baby to a place where he could be checked for injuries,
considering he was the survivor of an explosion. Knowing Hagrid, he
probably stormed in St. Mungo yelling 'I need attention for Harry Potter
who has survived the attack of You-Know-Who at his own house!!!!!'
> 2) We can suppose that Hagrid met no one other than Sirius after
> leaving Hogwarts.
If we first assume he was there before he arrived GH.
> 3) The Death Eater's continue operating after Godric's Hollow. They
> torture the Longbottoms at least two day's after Godric's Hollow. So we
> can assume that they are not sure of what events took place at Godric's
> Hollow.
>
> 4) We know that Dumbledore told Hagrid who told McGonogall. So
> Dumbledore knew about it first. But how did he know?
He was around? He had a spy who was ordered to be around but not
interfering? A muggle or a squib?
> 5) Dumbledore did not go to Godric's Hollow or he would have picked up
> Harry.
>
> 6) Dumbledore knew details about what happened when he was at Privet
> Drive (Lilly's sacrifice for example) without having been at Godric's
> Hollow or having seen Harry before Privet Drive (if he had seen Harry
> before Privet Drive, why didn't he take Harry to Privet Drive). How did
> Dumbledore know so much?
1. He "read" Harry's mind. We know Harry was a baby, but see what Jo
says about Pensieves: "[pensieves] recreates a moment for you, so you
could go into your own memory and relive things that you didn't notice
the time. It's somewhere in your head, which I'm sure it is, in all of
our brains. I'm sure if you could access it, things that you don't know
you remember are all in there somewhere."
Also, notice that DD seemed to know better what happened when Lily's
faced LV but not what happened when James did. Perhaps because Harry was
with Lily all the time?
or
2. The Potters had a house-elf.
> Conclusion 5: Someone was at Godric's hollow who told Dumbledore all
> that happened.
The house-elf? :S
> Given the above and:
> 1) The person or creature who told Dumbledore what happened at Godric's
> Hollow had to know the secret or had to be able to bypass Godric's
> Hollow secret location.
If it was the elf, then he/she was also inside the house.
> 2) Certainly Sirius did not tell Dumbledore, he got there at the same
> time as Hagrid because Sirius went undercover to search for Pettigrew.
> Pettigrew was probably at Godric's Hollow
> ( http://www.hp-lexicon.org/timelines/essays/timeline_potters. html).
> Certainly Pettigrew did not tell Dumbledore because Pettigrew was in
> hiding (or if he had gone to Dumbledore then he either would have had
> no fear of Sirius or Dumbledore would have known the truth). If Lupin
> had been there and told Dumbledore, why didn't he rescue Harry? The
> same logic applies to Snape. If Snape had been there why didn't he
> rescue Harry (if Snape is good) or take Harry to the Death Eaters (if
> Snape is bad)?
Because none of them was there. If Dumbledore knew first than then what
happened there, the house must have been under some vigilance. If
Dumbledore was told by someone, this someone was somehow ordered to stay
aside no matter what (a muggle? a squib?). If, he knew it by magical
means, then he send the first person he had at the moment. Yet, I think
he knew exactly what happened, as he sent Hagrid. If he got the
information that LV had arrived at the house and it had been a fight,
why sending Hagrid when it existed the option that LV had killed the 3
Potters and survived?
> 3) That someone could have been a house-elf, a portrait or Fawkes. All
> have the required abilities. But no house-elf or portrait seems likely.
>
House-elves sound likely to me.
> Conclusion 6: Fawkes is the only one that could have been at Godric's
> Hollow and told Dumbledore everything. Fawkes is magical and
> exceptional enough to bypass the protections at Godric's Hollow. Fawkes
> is intelligent enough to understand everything that happened that
> night. Lastly, Fawkes was trusted by Dumbledore.
OK, that I agree.
>
[snip]
OK, I agree with almost everything except some minor details I won't
write :S
> Meta-considerations:
> This reconstruction also has the added benefit that it explains some
> previously unexplained things. For one thing, Thestral's. Why did JK
> introduce Thestrals? They really don't add anything to the plot or
> characters or flavor unless they are to be used in book 7.
They were used plenty in book 5, and for some lightly good reasons.
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| Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers *** [message #300155 ] |
Fr, 14 Juli 2006 05:21 |
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gjw escribió:
> On 13 Jul 2006 14:38:25 -0700, ag30476 [at] gmail.com wrote:
>
>> Fawkes is the only one that could have been at Godric's
>> Hollow and told Dumbledore everything.
>
>
> The last time I looked, Fawkes was a large, brightly-feathered bird.
> Do we have any indication in the books that Fawkes can TALK ??
How do we know that Dumbledore has his ways to communicate with Fawkes?
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| Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers *** [message #300157 ] |
Fr, 14 Juli 2006 05:29 |
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To be clearer because on reading it seems that I wasn't...
First, many have supposed that DD must have had some means of finding
out about what happened in GH before sending Hagrid there (or at least
before arring at Privet Drive). For example, some have supposed that
Snape was at GH. Others have supposed that Lupin was there, or that
Lupin switched bodies with James, or that a time-travelled future Harry
was there. Hopefully, my modest proposal won't be lumped with such
fanciful claims.
I'm supposing DD did have a spy in GH. Nothing new here.
I'm just supposing that this spy could again bypass the secret without
giving away the secret to DD or anyone else. Magical creatures like an
elf can bypass wizard protections. I'm supposing the spy was Fawkes.
Second, we know that the Potters were hiding in GH. In fact, that as
specific as it gets in the text. (Perhaps DD and other can only say GH
because they cannot be more specific - meaning that the secret is
still in effect.)
We don't know what the secret was exactly but I'm supposing the secret
was the location of the hiding place not the fact that the Potters were
hiding in that location.
Whether the location kept by the secret is the location of the entire
village of GH, or the street in GH, or a building on GH, or a room in a
building in GH does not matter. My point is the secret is the location
of the hiding place. You can talk about the hiding place but not about
how to get there. And you can't get there if you don't know the secret
just like with 12 Grimaud.
Further, originally only 4 people knew the secret (James, Lilly, Sirius
and Pettigrew - baby Harry does no count as "knowing the location).
Pettigrew then tells V so V knows.
Again, nothing new here so far.
It has been supposed that DD and/or Hagrid also knew the location of
the hiding place because DD sent Hagrid went and DD knew what went on
there to some detail.
I'm supposing that DD and/or Hagrid did NOT know the location but yet
DD had a means to send Hagrid there bypassing the secret. The means he
had is the use of Thestral that had been to the hiding place before.
(We could have used Fawkes for double-duty here but I like the idea of
a Thestral.)
The third thing I'm proposing that these two suppositions (Fawkes spy
and Thestral to GH hiding spot) explain the missing day and help
explain why DD did not go to GH himself.
Fawkes flies from GH to Hogwarts. Fawkes let's DD know what happened
without going to GH himself. DD can then go to GH by some means which
bypasses the secret which is still in effect. This means is slow
(compared to apparation). So he sends Hagrid by this means, the
Thestral, because there is no time saved by DD going to GH himself.
Hagrid takes the Thestral from Hogwarts to GH. From GH to Privet Drive
he takes Sirius' bike. The three (relatively) slow flights explain why
it takes a day from the time the curse backfires to the time Harry
arrives at Privet Drive.
Lastly, all this implies that the secret is still in effect and that
Harry must use use some means to bypass the secret which is still in
effect. The only living person who knows the secret is Pettigrew which
means Harry has to find Pettigrew...or there is some other means.
Fortunately for Harry, Hagrid tells him about the Thestral or the trio
figure this out on their own...and this seems very Rowing like to me.
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| Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers *** [message #300158 ] |
Fr, 14 Juli 2006 05:30 |
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drusilla wrote:
> gjw escribi=F3:
> > On 13 Jul 2006 14:38:25 -0700, ag30476 [at] gmail.com wrote:
> >
> >> Fawkes is the only one that could have been at Godric's
> >> Hollow and told Dumbledore everything.
> >
> >
> > The last time I looked, Fawkes was a large, brightly-feathered bird.
> > Do we have any indication in the books that Fawkes can TALK ??
>
> How do we know that Dumbledore has his ways to communicate with Fawkes?
That's true, Drusilla. IMO, there seems to be some kind of silent
communication between Dumbledore and Fawkes.
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| Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers *** [message #300159 ] |
Fr, 14 Juli 2006 05:32 |
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gjw wrote:
> On 13 Jul 2006 14:38:25 -0700, ag30476 [at] gmail.com wrote:
>
> >Fawkes is the only one that could have been at Godric's
> >Hollow and told Dumbledore everything.
>
>
> The last time I looked, Fawkes was a large, brightly-feathered bird.
> Do we have any indication in the books that Fawkes can TALK ??
Fawkes does not necessarily have to talk to communicate with DD. How DD
communicates with Fawkes, I can't say except it's magic.
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| Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers *** [message #300165 ] |
Fr, 14 Juli 2006 06:13 |
|
drusilla wrote:
> > Conclusion 1: Hagrid went to Godric's Hollow with some means of
> > transport, most likely a flying transport.
>
> What about a Portkey?
Possible but then Portkeys seems like apparation - something that would
be hard on a 1 year old. Still OK. Hagrid uses a portkey to get to GH?
Why doesn't he use it to get out with Harry? Instead he uses Sirius'
bike. There's no reason to use Siriu's bike unless it's no worse than
what he planned to get out of GH with.
> > Conclusion 2: Hagrid went to Godric's Hollow on a Thestral. Upon
> > burrowing Sirius' bike, the Thestral returned to Hogwarts by itself.
>
> Again, it might be a portkey.
Like I say above, Hagrid might have gotten there by portkey (or Floo or
whatever) but conclusion 2 is about what he planned to get out of GH
with. Since Hagrid doesn't broom, he probably planned on using
something else: flying car, flying carpet, gryphon, dragon, Thestral.
Thestral's are conveniently located in Hogwarts so they are my choice.
> > 4) If Sirius and Peter Pettigrew are still alive, then how can
> > Dumbledore, Hagrid and McGonogall speak about Harry and the Potters at
> > Godric's Hollow that night?
>
> Could it be that the Fidelius Charm gets broken once the secret is
> revealed?
Yes but that brings its own problems, most conspicously why did DD then
not go to GH and pick up Harry?
> > Conclusion 3: You cannot apparate at Godric's Hollow. In fact, the
> > location of Godric's Hollow is the secret of the Secret Keeper. But a
> > Thestral, a magical creature, can bypass wizard protections (much like
> > elves can apparate in Hogwarts ground) if the Thestral had been to
> > Godric's Hollow before.
>
> The secret is not the house or the location but the information that
> 'the Potters were hiding at Godric's Hollow'. You can get there in
> Thestral, but there is no way you might know that the Potters are inside
> the house. How? No idea how that charm works: it might be like the
> anti-muggle charm; you forget why were you there or simply James and
> Lily might be in front of you but you can't see them.
That might be how the charm works. If the secret is still in effect
after the curse backfires, then how can people talk about the fact that
the potters were hiding in GH? If the secret is not in effect after the
curse backfires then how come we don't hear about anyone other than
Hagrid and Sirius going to GH that night. DD doesn't go. McG doesn't go
(even though she is curious about what went on there). Ministry
officials don't go (not before Hagrid leaves GH). DE's don't go (again
at least not before Hagrid leaves GH).
> > Conclusion 4: Most likely, none of the following knew the secret
> > location of Godric's Hollow: Dumbledore, Hagrid, McGonogall, Lupin,
> > Snape, anyone at the Ministry of Magic.
>
> There is not secret Location of Godric's Hollow. Another theory might be
> that Hagrid or any member of the Order where supposed to be watching the
> place by turns but not knowing the reason (kinda like in OotP and the
> prophecy): and it happened that that night was Hagrid's turn. We know
> that Harry received orders from DD that involved Harry, so, he get them
> after the attack. If he wasn't there, he probably was the closest person
> DD had at the moment.
That is possible but that supposition has it's own problems. First,
supposing Hagrid is near GH, then Hagrid sends an message to DD and
waits for DD's reply before going to GH. I think rather would more
likely rush to GH yelling "Harry!" then send a message to DD. Second,
how does Hagrid tell McG he is going to Privet Drive. We can suppose
she is near GH too but then why doesn't she got to GH. Or we can
suppose Hagrid is near GH, then goes to Hogwarts, meets with McG, then
goes back to GH. I think it's simpler to assume that Hagrid was not
near GH.
> > Prediction 1: Hagrid will tell Harry that he needs to take a Thestral
> > to Godric's Hollow in book 7.
>
> Harry wants to be there. He can use several ways to get there:
> Apparition, broomstick, floo, Knight Bus, Portkey and his own
> Hippogryff. And muggle ways too.
It seems Rowling like to me to put obstacles in Harry's path. Anything
that Harry wants, Harry has to work for. But we'll have to wait and
see...
> > Given the above and:
> > 1) How did whole wizarding world know what happened at Godric's Hollow
> > given that it took Hagrid a day of flying to and from Godric's Hollow?
> > Dumbledore and McGonogall speak of the celebrations taking place during
> > the intervening day.
>
> But Hagrid must have been meeting people in the way. He was a baby,
> wasn't he? He needed to stop to feed him, change him. Also, he probably
> took the baby to a place where he could be checked for injuries,
> considering he was the survivor of an explosion. Knowing Hagrid, he
> probably stormed in St. Mungo yelling 'I need attention for Harry Potter
> who has survived the attack of You-Know-Who at his own house!!!!!'
Yes this are plausible suppositions and they have been used to explain
the passage of time. However, I think on close (or perhaps over-)
analysis, they don't add up. Hagris is instructed to take Harry to
Privet Drive and we learn that it's because it is (thanks to the blood
charm) the safest place for Harry. That means, DD, wants Harry safe,
naturally with all the DE's still around. And at that time, DE's were
hidden everywhere. It seems the most logical instruction for DD to give
Hagrid is "Get the baby and take it straight to Privet Drive." That
means no talking to anyone. Hagrid meets up with Sirius and talks to
him. Later Sirius is falsely accused of working with Voldemort. This
only highlights how dangerous the situation was for Harry. Of course,
Harry had nothing to fear from Sirius, but Hagrid did not know that at
the time. Lastly, DD does not go get the baby himseld because he judges
he, DD, cannot do it in a safer (that is faster) time than Hagrid can
(that is DD too must at least fly from GH with Harry).
> > 2) We can suppose that Hagrid met no one other than Sirius after
> > leaving Hogwarts.
>
> If we first assume he was there before he arrived GH.
Yes. But it sounds better than saying "We can suppose that Hagrid met
no one other than Sirius after Hagrid left wherever was that he was at
at the time.
> > 4) We know that Dumbledore told Hagrid who told McGonogall. So
> > Dumbledore knew about it first. But how did he know?
>
> He was around? He had a spy who was ordered to be around but not
> interfering? A muggle or a squib?
Possible.
> > 6) Dumbledore knew details about what happened when he was at Privet
> > Drive (Lilly's sacrifice for example) without having been at Godric's
> > Hollow or having seen Harry before Privet Drive (if he had seen Harry
> > before Privet Drive, why didn't he take Harry to Privet Drive). How did
> > Dumbledore know so much?
>
> 1. He "read" Harry's mind. We know Harry was a baby, but see what Jo
> says about Pensieves: "[pensieves] recreates a moment for you, so you
> could go into your own memory and relive things that you didn't notice
> the time. It's somewhere in your head, which I'm sure it is, in all of
> our brains. I'm sure if you could access it, things that you don't know
> you remember are all in there somewhere."
Possible. But from the famous Harry/Lupin PoA scene we know Harry's
earliest memory is a little clouded. Still it's possible as you say.
However, DD tells McG details before Harry arrives in Privet Drive. And
if DD had seen Harry before Privet Drive (either at GH or because
Hagrid takes Harry to DD) why didn't DD take charge of the baby from
that point?
> Also, notice that DD seemed to know better what happened when Lily's
> faced LV but not what happened when James did. Perhaps because Harry was
> with Lily all the time?
That's a good observation.
> or
>
> 2. The Potters had a house-elf.
>
> > Conclusion 5: Someone was at Godric's hollow who told Dumbledore all
> > that happened.
>
> The house-elf? :S
That's another possibility. A house-elf at GH would make an excellent
spy for DD. However, said house-elf is conspicously absent from books
1-6.
> > Given the above and:
> > 1) The person or creature who told Dumbledore what happened at Godric's
> > Hollow had to know the secret or had to be able to bypass Godric's
> > Hollow secret location.
>
> If it was the elf, then he/she was also inside the house.
Like I said an elf is possible but ultimately dissapointing. "Don'ts be
mad with us Master Harry, sir. We did not talks to your honors before
because we was...um would you like us to make a nice cup'o butterbeer
for you sirs?"
> > 2) Certainly Sirius did not tell Dumbledore, he got there at the same
> > time as Hagrid because Sirius went undercover to search for Pettigrew.
> > Pettigrew was probably at Godric's Hollow
> > ( http://www.hp-lexicon.org/timelines/essays/timeline_potters. html).
> > Certainly Pettigrew did not tell Dumbledore because Pettigrew was in
> > hiding (or if he had gone to Dumbledore then he either would have had
> > no fear of Sirius or Dumbledore would have known the truth). If Lupin
> > had been there and told Dumbledore, why didn't he rescue Harry? The
> > same logic applies to Snape. If Snape had been there why didn't he
> > rescue Harry (if Snape is good) or take Harry to the Death Eaters (if
> > Snape is bad)?
>
> Because none of them was there...
Well Pettigrew had to be there to rescue the V's wand but that's
another thread...
> ...If Dumbledore knew first than then what
> happened there, the house must have been under some vigilance. If
> Dumbledore was told by someone, this someone was somehow ordered to stay
> aside no matter what (a muggle? a squib?). If, he knew it by magical
> means, then he send the first person he had at the moment. Yet, I think
> he knew exactly what happened, as he sent Hagrid. If he got the
> information that LV had arrived at the house and it had been a fight,
> why sending Hagrid when it existed the option that LV had killed the 3
> Potters and survived?
And surely there existed the possibility that someone was alive. If DD
can get in and out faster than Hagrid, then it is not logical for DD to
send Hagrid.
> > 3) That someone could have been a house-elf, a portrait or Fawkes. All
> > have the required abilities. But no house-elf or portrait seems likely.
> >
>
> House-elves sound likely to me.
Like I said, I though of them too. Except it would be disappointing to
meet an elf-ex-machina in book 7 who explains all.
> > Conclusion 6: Fawkes is the only one that could have been at Godric's
> > Hollow and told Dumbledore everything. Fawkes is magical and
> > exceptional enough to bypass the protections at Godric's Hollow. Fawkes
> > is intelligent enough to understand everything that happened that
> > night. Lastly, Fawkes was trusted by Dumbledore.
>
> OK, that I agree.
You agree that Fawkes is a good spy candidate? If so, thanks.
> OK, I agree with almost everything except some minor details I won't
> write :S
But what about the flames...I want more flame BWAHAHAHAHA.
> > Meta-considerations:
> > This reconstruction also has the added benefit that it explains some
> > previously unexplained things. For one thing, Thestral's. Why did JK
> > introduce Thestrals? They really don't add anything to the plot or
> > characters or flavor unless they are to be used in book 7.
>
> They were used plenty in book 5, and for some lightly good reasons.
I think she could have done without Thestrals. My feeling is that they
will be used again in book 7.
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| Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers *** [message #300174 ] |
Fr, 14 Juli 2006 06:45 |
|
ag30476 [at] gmail.com escribió:
> drusilla wrote:
>>> Conclusion 1: Hagrid went to Godric's Hollow with some means of
>>> transport, most likely a flying transport.
>> What about a Portkey?
> Possible but then Portkeys seems like apparation - something that would
> be hard on a 1 year old. Still OK. Hagrid uses a portkey to get to GH?
> Why doesn't he use it to get out with Harry? Instead he uses Sirius'
> bike. There's no reason to use Siriu's bike unless it's no worse than
> what he planned to get out of GH with.
Hagrid's main priority was to get there. Perhaps he would worry about
get out there later. It seems to me (I don't have my HP books at hand)
that Sirius left the scene first. Also, DD surely could have sent some
help later that eventually realised that Hagrid had found his way to
leave with Harry. As Hogsmeade is, as said by Hermione, the only
completely wizard village, GH was not. At some point, ministry people
arrived to check the scene and get ride of curious muggles; DD should
have known this. All of these is actually speculation of course.
>>> 4) If Sirius and Peter Pettigrew are still alive, then how can
>>> Dumbledore, Hagrid and McGonogall speak about Harry and the Potters at
>>> Godric's Hollow that night?
>> Could it be that the Fidelius Charm gets broken once the secret is
>> revealed?
> Yes but that brings its own problems, most conspicously why did DD then
> not go to GH and pick up Harry?
He was busy doing something way more important than that :S
> That might be how the charm works. If the secret is still in effect
> after the curse backfires, then how can people talk about the fact that
> the potters were hiding in GH? If the secret is not in effect after the
> curse backfires then how come we don't hear about anyone other than
> Hagrid and Sirius going to GH that night. DD doesn't go. McG doesn't go
> (even though she is curious about what went on there). Ministry
> officials don't go (not before Hagrid leaves GH). DE's don't go (again
> at least not before Hagrid leaves GH).
No one goes because no one knows the importance of the place or what is
inside. Even when the secret is revealed (if), why would people
associated the destruccion of a house with LV's 'dead'. There were other
attacks before that, they don't go to check every one of them. Why would
they?
>>> Conclusion 4: Most likely, none of the following knew the secret
>>> location of Godric's Hollow: Dumbledore, Hagrid, McGonogall, Lupin,
>>> Snape, anyone at the Ministry of Magic.
>> There is not secret Location of Godric's Hollow. Another theory might be
>> that Hagrid or any member of the Order where supposed to be watching the
>> place by turns but not knowing the reason (kinda like in OotP and the
>> prophecy): and it happened that that night was Hagrid's turn. We know
>> that Harry received orders from DD that involved Harry, so, he get them
>> after the attack. If he wasn't there, he probably was the closest person
>> DD had at the moment.
> That is possible but that supposition has it's own problems. First,
> supposing Hagrid is near GH, then Hagrid sends an message to DD and
> waits for DD's reply before going to GH. I think rather would more
> likely rush to GH yelling "Harry!" then send a message to DD. Second,
> how does Hagrid tell McG he is going to Privet Drive. We can suppose
> she is near GH too but then why doesn't she got to GH. Or we can
> suppose Hagrid is near GH, then goes to Hogwarts, meets with McG, then
> goes back to GH. I think it's simpler to assume that Hagrid was not
> near GH.
There is a chance, and I've read that here, that Hagrid took Harry to
Hogwarts, where there is a nurse who could have helped. Yet, it seems
that when MG talks with Hagrid, he is Harry-less. He might have talked
with her before he went to GH unless he was separated from Harry at some
moment.
> It seems Rowling like to me to put obstacles in Harry's path. Anything
> that Harry wants, Harry has to work for.
Except money ;)
I think on close (or perhaps over-)
> analysis, they don't add up. Hagris is instructed to take Harry to
> Privet Drive and we learn that it's because it is (thanks to the blood
> charm) the safest place for Harry. That means, DD, wants Harry safe,
> naturally with all the DE's still around. And at that time, DE's were
> hidden everywhere. It seems the most logical instruction for DD to give
> Hagrid is "Get the baby and take it straight to Privet Drive."
He could have taken Harry to Hogwarts, where is also safe.
That
> means no talking to anyone. Hagrid meets up with Sirius and talks to
> him. Later Sirius is falsely accused of working with Voldemort. This
> only highlights how dangerous the situation was for Harry. Of course,
> Harry had nothing to fear from Sirius, but Hagrid did not know that at
> the time. Lastly, DD does not go get the baby himseld because he judges
> he, DD, cannot do it in a safer (that is faster) time than Hagrid can
> (that is DD too must at least fly from GH with Harry).
I think is important to know what was DD doing at that time. Perhaps he
was working on a spell over Privet Drive (not possible as MG didn't see
him) or looking for LV himself. Who knows?
>>> 2) We can suppose that Hagrid met no one other than Sirius after
>>> leaving Hogwarts.
>> If we first assume he was there before he arrived GH.
> Yes. But it sounds better than saying "We can suppose that Hagrid met
> no one other than Sirius after Hagrid left wherever was that he was at
> at the time.
OK.
> However, DD tells McG details before Harry arrives in Privet Drive. And
> if DD had seen Harry before Privet Drive (either at GH or because
> Hagrid takes Harry to DD) why didn't DD take charge of the baby from
> that point?
Might be that DD is not good carrying a baby all over the country.
Hagrid, clumsy as he is, looks to be extremely careful with his 'pets'.
A baby is way closer to that so, DD could have thought that Hagrid was
better for interact with a baby than himself.
>>> Conclusion 5: Someone was at Godric's hollow who told Dumbledore all
>>> that happened.
>> The house-elf? :S
> That's another possibility. A house-elf at GH would make an excellent
> spy for DD. However, said house-elf is conspicously absent from books
> 1-6.
If the elf belongs to the Potters, perhaps it's still at GH waiting for
Harry to appear. Or Dumbledore managed to get him/her another job.
(Someone will ever say Dobby? No one?)
>> Because none of them was there...
> Well Pettigrew had to be there to rescue the V's wand but that's
> another thread...
OK :)
> And surely there existed the possibility that someone was alive. If DD
> can get in and out faster than Hagrid, then it is not logical for DD to
> send Hagrid.
Yes, I think DD had been more helpfull if someone was alive, and even
more if none of them had. He knew exactly what had happened and that it
was safe, so he sent Hagrid.
> Like I said, I though of them too. Except it would be disappointing to
> meet an elf-ex-machina in book 7 who explains all.
There is not much to explain, actually. If this happens, I give it half
of a chapter to happen.
> You agree that Fawkes is a good spy candidate? If so, thanks.
You're welcome. But in fact, Fawkes had been seen as a messenger, so,
why not a spy?
>> OK, I agree with almost everything except some minor details I won't
>> write :S
> But what about the flames...I want more flame BWAHAHAHAHA.
HEHE
>>> Meta-considerations:
>>> This reconstruction also has the added benefit that it explains some
>>> previously unexplained things. For one thing, Thestral's. Why did JK
>>> introduce Thestrals? They really don't add anything to the plot or
>>> characters or flavor unless they are to be used in book 7.
>> They were used plenty in book 5, and for some lightly good reasons.
> I think she could have done without Thestrals. My feeling is that they
> will be used again in book 7.
I think she's going to use lots of stuff from previous books.
I also thought something: why so little communication between DD and
Sirius? He was supposedly the secret keeper, if DD was indeed watching
somehow the house, how is that he didn't watched Sirius as well? Just
wondering.
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| Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers *** [message #300185 ] |
Fr, 14 Juli 2006 09:59 |
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On 13 Jul 2006 14:38:25 -0700, ag30476 [at] gmail.com wrote:
>1) Sirius was worried about the Potters but chooses to fly to Godric's
>Hollow rather than apparate. The logical choice would be to leave the
>bike somewhere and apparate, apparating back to the bike if needed.
If he ever got his license.
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| Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers *** [message #300186 ] |
Fr, 14 Juli 2006 10:02 |
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On 13 Jul 2006 14:38:25 -0700, ag30476 [at] gmail.com wrote:
>Conclusion 3: You cannot apparate at Godric's Hollow. In fact, the
>location of Godric's Hollow is the secret of the Secret Keeper. But a
>Thestral, a magical creature, can bypass wizard protections (much like
>elves can apparate in Hogwarts ground) if the Thestral had been to
>Godric's Hollow before.
That can't be the secret. we're told Vodlemort could look in their
window and never see them. That means they are the secret somehow.
And nothing gets by the FC unless the SK tells. Peter probably
performed the FC Break spell.
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| Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers *** [message #300189 ] |
Fr, 14 Juli 2006 10:48 |
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drusilla wrote:
> Hagrid's main priority was to get there. Perhaps he would worry about
> get out there later...
Granted. Hagrid is act first, think later. But DD never acts without
thinking. And it was DD who sent Hagrid. It only makes sense to me if
DD sent Hagrid with explicit instructions. Even so Hagrid could be
expected to tell the secret to someone else...he often does...and he
did (to McG)...and McG is someone DD did not tell anything to...but now
I'm getting into another thread ;)
> ...It seems to me (I don't have my HP books at hand)
> that Sirius left the scene first...
Not sure of the import of that other than the fact that it enables
Hagrid to be the witness.
> ..Also, DD surely could have sent some
> help later that eventually realised that Hagrid had found his way to
> leave with Harry...
Surely, IF he could, then he would.
> ...As Hogsmeade is, as said by Hermione, the only
> completely wizard village, GH was not. At some point, ministry people
> arrived to check the scene and get ride of curious muggles; DD should
> have known this. All of these is actually speculation of course.
Yes they should have done that IF they could have. We can suppose they
eventually got around to it after Hagrid went to GH, found Harry and
talked with Sirius. Perhaps DD conveniently forgot to tell the Ministry
right away long enough for Hagrid to go there undisturbed...see this is
the problem...The easier it is for more people to get to GH, the more
convoluted the story has to become. But if we assume that the secret is
still in place after the curse backfires and only the bare minimum
(James, Lilly, Sirius, Pettigrew, V) know anything then many questions
are explained away. The only thing we need is a way for Hagrid to get
there around the curse. Conveniently, the Harry Potter world is full of
exceptional things that break the rules (elves, Fawkes, etc.).
> > Yes but that brings its own problems, most conspicously why did DD then
> > not go to GH and pick up Harry?
>
> He was busy doing something way more important than that :S
And that was? Seriously, someone could still have been alive in GH and
we know the value DD puts on life. And if it is Harry, it is even more
important because I think by the time of the events at GH, DD knows the
prophecy and it's implication: Harry must live. Again, I ask what was
more important than Harry's safety IF DD could get to GH QUICKLY? (If
DD can get to GH by appartaion, we are talking about a few minutes of
DD's time.)
> > That might be how the charm works. If the secret is still in effect
> > after the curse backfires, then how can people talk about the fact that
> > the potters were hiding in GH? If the secret is not in effect after the
> > curse backfires then how come we don't hear about anyone other than
> > Hagrid and Sirius going to GH that night. DD doesn't go. McG doesn't go
> > (even though she is curious about what went on there). Ministry
> > officials don't go (not before Hagrid leaves GH). DE's don't go (again
> > at least not before Hagrid leaves GH).
>
> No one goes because no one knows the importance of the place or what is
> inside. Even when the secret is revealed (if), why would people
> associated the destruccion of a house with LV's 'dead'. There were other
> attacks before that, they don't go to check every one of them. Why would
> they?
McG asks DD in book 1, chapter 1:
'"What they're saying," she pressed on, "is that last
night Voldemort turned up in Godric's Hollow. He went to
find the Potters. The rumor is that Lily and James Potter
are -- are -- that they're -- dead. "'
Who are 'they'? How can 'they' not know the importance of GH?
> I think on close (or perhaps over-)
> > analysis, they don't add up. Hagris is instructed to take Harry to
> > Privet Drive and we learn that it's because it is (thanks to the blood
> > charm) the safest place for Harry. That means, DD, wants Harry safe,
> > naturally with all the DE's still around. And at that time, DE's were
> > hidden everywhere. It seems the most logical instruction for DD to give
> > Hagrid is "Get the baby and take it straight to Privet Drive."
>
> He could have taken Harry to Hogwarts, where is also safe.
OK, let's assume that. Hagrid is somewhere. DD tells him pick up Harry
and go to Hogwarts then go to Privet Drive. Hagrid tells McG the plan
or part of the plan at some time and at some place before he goes to
GH. DD is somewhere when he sends this. DD does not go to GH to pick up
Harry. DD does not go to Hogwarts to meet Harry. McG does not got to
Hogwarts to check on Harry (for good or ill). And then in book 1
chapter 1 McG says:
'"Yes -- yes, you're right, of course. But how is the boy
getting here, Dumbledore?"
She eyed his cloak suddenly as though she thought he
might be hiding Harry underneath it.
"Hagrid's bringing him."
"You think it -- wise -- to trust Hagrid with something
as important as this?"
I would trust Hagrid with my life," said Dumbledore.'
I'm glad DD trusts Hagrid with HIS life because after the
fly-Harry-to-Hogwarts-and-then-to-Privet-Drive, I wouldn't trust the
lot of them to deliver a postcard.
And then DD has the NERVE to say:
'"Hagrid," said Dumbledore, sounding relieved. "At last.
And where did you get that motorcycle?"'
If I was Hagrid I would not have said:
"Borrowed it, Professor Dumbledore, sir,"'
but rather "If you bloody'ell wanted him so fast you old git why didn't
you pick him yerfelf or meet me at Hogwarts!"
> I think is important to know what was DD doing at that time. Perhaps he
> was working on a spell over Privet Drive (not possible as MG didn't see
> him) or looking for LV himself. Who knows?
We're talking minutes, mere minutes, for DD to go pick up Harry IF he
can do it. And is DD looking for V? Gee, I wonder where is a good place
to start looking? The scene of the crime? Nah...that's not how we do it
her at CSI:Hogwarts.
And as for casting the spell on Privet Drive...that reverses
priorities. Imagine that DD spends a good part of the day researching
and preparing the blood charm. He meets McG, waits for Hagrid and
then...
Hagrid: "Well you sees sir when I got there I was too to late..."
DD: "Oh bother"
Oh, and lest we forget, 'Nothing like this man had ever been seen on
Privet
Drive.' DD had not been in Privet Drive before he got there that night
(at least to the narrator's knowledge). So, if DD was casting the blood
charm, he was casting without Harry and without Privet Drive and the
Dursely's. Or if he was researching/preparing the blood charm, then he
was doing it away from Hogwarts or he was at Hogwarts except for when
Harry was possibly taken to Hogwarts or when McG was looking for him.
If we assume that DD COULD have picked up GH or gone to GH, then the
questions just mount. Because if DD could have picked up Harry or gone
to GH, the he SHOULD have.
> > However, DD tells McG details before Harry arrives in Privet Drive. And
> > if DD had seen Harry before Privet Drive (either at GH or because
> > Hagrid takes Harry to DD) why didn't DD take charge of the baby from
> > that point?
>
> Might be that DD is not good carrying a baby all over the country.
> Hagrid, clumsy as he is, looks to be extremely careful with his 'pets'.
> A baby is way closer to that so, DD could have thought that Hagrid was
> better for interact with a baby than himself.
DD does not have to carry Harry all over the country. He has to pick
him up and take him to a safe place. He could, for ex, have taken him
to Privet Drive in the middle of the night and woken up the Duresly's,
cast the blood charm and left. Or he could have taken Harry to Hogwarts
and had Hagrid, the OotP, and Fawkes guard him. Instead, Hagrid (less
capable) has to take the baby either to a safe location (Privet Drive)
or all over the country (e, first Hogwarts, then Privet Drive). That
is, Hagrid has to do a job that is best suited for DD. And IF DD is
better suited than he SHOULD do it. Either that or picking up Haryy was
LESS important than something else.
No matter how you cut it, it's always the worse choice to have Hagrid
pick up Harry IF DD can do more quickly and safely instead.
> > That's another possibility. A house-elf at GH would make an excellent
> > spy for DD. However, said house-elf is conspicously absent from books
> > 1-6.
>
> If the elf belongs to the Potters, perhaps it's still at GH waiting for
> Harry to appear. Or Dumbledore managed to get him/her another job.
> (Someone will ever say Dobby? No one?)
I agree, a house-elf could have been the spy. And maybe it was Dobby.
But it's just so unsatisfying an explanation, at least for me.
> > And surely there existed the possibility that someone was alive. If DD
> > can get in and out faster than Hagrid, then it is not logical for DD to
> > send Hagrid.
>
> Yes, I think DD had been more helpfull if someone was alive, and even
> more if none of them had. He knew exactly what had happened and that it
> was safe, so he sent Hagrid.
YES! DD knew it was safe. How did he know it was safe? How did he know
that noone else could get to the GH hiding spot quickly and get there
before Hagrid? How did he know that there was no-one left at GH to pose
a danger? How did he know that he could trust Hagrid to bring Harry
from GH to Privet Drive safely? If you can answer that then I think you
have a good reconstruction of events. I'm not saying my reconstruction
is the only possibility but it answers the safety questions.
Q: How did he know that noone else could get to the GH hiding spot
quickly and get there before Hagrid? A: Because the secret was still in
effect and even he, DD, could not break it.
Q: How did he know that there was no-one left at GH to pose a danger?
A: Because he had a spy who told him what happened, Fawkes IMO (but a
house-elf is also a possibility).
Q: How did he know that he could trust Hagrid to bring Harry from GH to
Privet Drive safely? A: Becuase it was a direct flight from GH to
Privet Drive.
> > Like I said, I though of them too. Except it would be disappointing to
> > meet an elf-ex-machina in book 7 who explains all.
> There is not much to explain, actually. If this happens, I give it half
> of a chapter to happen.
JK can write half a paragraph or several chapters, I'm still not going
to like it. It's just not palatable to me to find out that the spy and
the things that explains the goings on that night is a character not
seen until the last moment. This is a matter of taste of course.
> I also thought something: why so little communication between DD and
> Sirius? He was supposedly the secret keeper, if DD was indeed watching
> somehow the house, how is that he didn't watched Sirius as well? Just
> wondering.
Supposedly Sirius himself went into hiding, to promote the idea that he
is the Secret Keeper. Perhaps DD was watching Sirius. But if he was, it
was no help because the one to watch was Pettigrew.
Overall, the theme of secrecy and whom to trust seems to be a central
part of the series.
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| Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers *** [message #300190 ] |
Fr, 14 Juli 2006 10:59 |
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Toon wrote:
> On 13 Jul 2006 14:38:25 -0700, ag30476 [at] gmail.com wrote:
>
> >1) Sirius was worried about the Potters but chooses to fly to Godric's
> >Hollow rather than apparate. The logical choice would be to leave the
> >bike somewhere and apparate, apparating back to the bike if needed.
>
> If he ever got his license.
LOL. True. We can't assume that he can apparate. (Of course this does
not mean that he can't.)
But then we haven't seen many other characters apparate, McGonogall,
Pettigrew...The point is that in order to reconstruct the timeline of
events before book 7 (to do it after would be pointless of course), you
have to make assumptions/deduction regardless of which theory you
favor.
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| Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers *** [message #300192 ] |
Fr, 14 Juli 2006 11:19 |
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Toon wrote:
> On 13 Jul 2006 14:38:25 -0700, ag30476 [at] gmail.com wrote:
>
> >Conclusion 3: You cannot apparate at Godric's Hollow. In fact, the
> >location of Godric's Hollow is the secret of the Secret Keeper. But a
> >Thestral, a magical creature, can bypass wizard protections (much like
> >elves can apparate in Hogwarts ground) if the Thestral had been to
> >Godric's Hollow before.
>
> That can't be the secret. we're told Vodlemort could look in their
> window and never see them. That means they are the secret somehow.
IF he could look in the window, THEN he could never see them...wouldn't
put it past JK to mean it that way. But I think it's more of a figure
of speech as in "You could be right in front of 12 Grimaud and never
see it."
> And nothing gets by the FC unless the SK tells. Peter probably
> performed the FC Break spell.
Again, another assumption. Yes, nothing says there is no FC Break
spell. But nothing syas there is an FC break spell. Nothing says Sirius
can apparate. Nothing says he can't either.
But it's funny, that regarding the FC, JK has said in an interview that
the FC dies with the SK, that the secret is bound to the soul of the
SK. What I take from this is that the FC is a very strong charm that is
nearly impossible break.
If you look at my timeline, it is based on only 4 assumptions:
- The secret is still in effect.
- Only James, Lilly, Sirius, Pettigre, and LV knew the secret.
- DD had a spy in GH not bound by the secret (Fawkes or a house-elf, I
favor the former).
- DD had a means of bypassing the secret and getting himself or someone
else to GH (Fawkes again or a Thestral, I favor the latter).
If you assume either
- The secret is broken.
- DD and/or Hagrid knew the secret.
Then you have to come up with many more assumptions to cover the
questions that come up:
Q: Why didn't Sirus apparate to GH? A: He can't.
Q: How did DD know what happened? A: Someone like Snape or Lupin was
there, told DD, but did not take the baby. Or DD went to GH but did not
pick up Harry. Or DD met Harry at some time between GH and Privet
Drive.
Q: Why did DD not pick up Harry himself? A: He was doing something more
important.
Q: Why did it take so long for Hagrid to bring Harry to Privet Drive?
A: It didn't. Hagrid took Harry somewhere else first.
Q: Why didn't McG go to GH? She wanted confirmation from DD himself,
she did not want to confirm things for herself.
....
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| Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers *** [message #300209 ] |
Fr, 14 Juli 2006 23:11 |
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<ag30476 [at] gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1152826705.026819.109060 [at] m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
> Probably the conclusions here have been posted before. But I've been
> thinking about the events that happened at Godric's Hollow and Privet
> Drive and have come to some conclusions.
>
> Given:
[lots of complex arguments cut]
Gosh - book 7's going to be awfully complicated if it's going to come close
to covering that sort of back story!!!
(Well done - whether you're right or not, that took some figuring out, lol)
DaveD
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| Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers *** [message #300212 ] |
Fr, 14 Juli 2006 23:48 |
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DaveD wrote:
> Gosh - book 7's going to be awfully complicated if it's going to come close
> to covering that sort of back story!!!
I don't think the story is complicated. JK wrote a consistent story and
then just left out certain key parts. Naturally our guesses as to what
that story is will sound strange (or will be downright strange in some
cases).
I figure, we will get a flashback or expository scene where the events
at GH will be explained. (Of course, JK could get artsy and show
multiple POV flashbacks so that we never know what really happened but
I doubt that.)
> (Well done - whether you're right or not, that took some figuring out, lol)
Thanks!
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| Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers *** [message #300213 ] |
Sa, 15 Juli 2006 00:12 |
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On 13 Jul 2006 20:32:09 -0700, ag30476 [at] gmail.com wrote:
>
>gjw wrote:
>> On 13 Jul 2006 14:38:25 -0700, ag30476 [at] gmail.com wrote:
>>
>> >Fawkes is the only one that could have been at Godric's
>> >Hollow and told Dumbledore everything.
>>
>>
>> The last time I looked, Fawkes was a large, brightly-feathered bird.
>> Do we have any indication in the books that Fawkes can TALK ??
>Fawkes does not necessarily have to talk to communicate with DD. How DD
>communicates with Fawkes, I can't say except it's magic.
Are there any indications in the books that Fawkes can communicate
complex ideas to anyone ? So far, my impression is that the bird is
incapable of communicating on any sophisticated level (beyond that of
a very bright pet, responding to its master's commands).
Without some evidence to suggest otherwise, it would seem unwise to
build a theory on the notion that the bird told Dumbledore what
happened at Godric's Hollow.
["Just when I think I’m out, they pull me back in again." - Michael
Corleone ]
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| Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers *** [message #300215 ] |
Sa, 15 Juli 2006 00:38 |
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gjw wrote:
> Are there any indications in the books that Fawkes can communicate
> complex ideas to anyone ? So far, my impression is that the bird is
> incapable of communicating on any sophisticated level (beyond that of
> a very bright pet, responding to its master's commands).
Yet Dumbledore uses her to warn him if Umbridge leaves her office. That
does imply that she can understand a complex idea (Umbridge leaving her
office) and act accordingly. And there are other signs of Fawkes
intelligence.
How does Fawkes communicate with DD? I don't know. But you can't say
that she doesn't. So yes, the fact that Fawkes can communicate with DD
is an assumption on my part but since we don't have all the facts, we
must make some assumptions and deductions.
> Without some evidence to suggest otherwise, it would seem unwise to
> build a theory on the notion that the bird told Dumbledore what
> happened at Godric's Hollow.
The "theory" has to employ deductions and assumptions like any other
reconstruction because we don't know all the facts. IMHO, I use less
deductions and assumptions than most.
Many have supposed that DD had a means to know what happened in GH.
Many have also supposed that this was a spy, a witness if you will, of
the goings on in GH. And many have supposed that this was some wizard
like Snape or Lupin. But if this is the case, then why would the wizard
have left the baby? It makes no sense. I'm just supposing as other have
that it was a magical creature, like a house-elf, that was the witness.
I think Fawkes is a good guess because he has the desired qualities,
he's an exceptional magical creature who seems intelligent and is
trusted by DD.
Notice that DD can use Fawkes to teleport away from the ministry which
is normally an impossible act. Fawkes can also take an AV curse and be
reborn. Sounds to me like the kind of remote spy you need at GH.
Why didn't Fawkes take Harry? Well the last time Fawkes carried Harry,
Harry held on to the tail feathers no? A baby can't do that.
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| Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers *** [message #300226 ] |
Sa, 15 Juli 2006 07:09 |
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On 14 Jul 2006 15:38:04 -0700, ag30476 [at] gmail.com wrote:
>
>gjw wrote:
>> Are there any indications in the books that Fawkes can communicate
>> complex ideas to anyone ? So far, my impression is that the bird is
>> incapable of communicating on any sophisticated level (beyond that of
>> a very bright pet, responding to its master's commands).
>Yet Dumbledore uses her to warn him if Umbridge leaves her office. That
>does imply that she can understand a complex idea (Umbridge leaving her
>office) and act accordingly. And there are other signs of Fawkes
>intelligence.
I would take that incident as the kind of literary exaggeration one
sees in an old episode of "Lassie", in which Timmy tells the dog to do
something and the dog responds as if it understands what Timmy is
saying. (Or when the same dog goes to get its master and barks, or
tugs on him, until he follows her somewhere.) That sort of thing is
an exaggeration of what most pets can do, but it isn't the same as
portraying an animal as capable of actual speech or other
sophisticated communication. I'd have nothing in particular against
the idea of Fawkes tugging at Dumbledore's cloak, or squawking loudly
when something bad happens. But it is highly unlikely that the bird
would be able to actually tell Dumbledore anything about what happened
at Godric's Hollow.
(And why do you refer to Fawkes as "she"? It's a male.)
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| Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers *** [message #300229 ] |
Sa, 15 Juli 2006 09:47 |
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On 14 Jul 2006 02:19:54 -0700, ag30476 [at] gmail.com wrote:
>> That can't be the secret. we're told Vodlemort could look in their
>> window and never see them. That means they are the secret somehow.
>IF he could look in the window, THEN he could never see them...wouldn't
>put it past JK to mean it that way. But I think it's more of a figure
>of speech as in "You could be right in front of 12 Grimaud and never
>see it."
No, she was describing the power of the spell. So powerful, that if a
secret is hidden from you, and you stumble upon it, you still can't
see it. So, the Potters are secretly in the GH House. Even if
Voldemort decides to check out this house, he'll never see them. So,
he can see/find the house. He'd just find and empty house.
>> And nothing gets by the FC unless the SK tells. Peter probably
>> performed the FC Break spell.
>Again, another assumption. Yes, nothing says there is no FC Break
>spell. But nothing syas there is an FC break spell. Nothing says Sirius
>can apparate. Nothing says he can't either.
Well, there has to be,e because a secret could no longer need to be
kept secret. Nobody expected the Potters to die. So, there has to be
a way to break the FC and let them be seen by anyone there. let alone
any number of secrets that are no longer needed to be kept.
Of course, it took 50 years from the invention of the can to invent
the can openers, so maybe the secret is permanent..
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| Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers *** [message #300241 ] |
Sa, 15 Juli 2006 15:36 |
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<ag30476 [at] gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1152850392.853107.182120 [at] m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
>
> drusilla wrote:
> > > Conclusion 1:
[suppositions and/or hypotheses and counter-hypotheses snipped]
There's lots of complex workings here (too many for my addled brain to
follow lol) but what is the overall point you're trying to show? Yes there
is a missing day to fill, but I don't see that filling it really adds to the
story: it doesn't show anyone as being a secret DE/traitor or undercover
agent of OoTP, or much about Harry's role in how he will destroy Voldy, for
example (or even if - shock horror - he's a horcrux!) apart from suggesting
he may have a bit of a problem finding GH - and somehow I suspect he'll have
lots of bigger (and more dramatic!) things to do such as finding and
destroying all the other horcruxes and then Voldy. The question of whether
he rides a broomstick or a thestral to get to GH seems pretty small beer by
comparison!
Sorry if I missed the point somewhere along the way after all the hard work
you've put into it :)
DaveD
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| Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers *** [message #300247 ] |
Sa, 15 Juli 2006 18:43 |
|
In message
<news:1152840454.187728.12670 [at] i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
ag30476 [at] gmail.com wrote:
>
> Troels Forchhammer wrote:
>>
>> In message
>> <news:1152826705.026819.109060 [at] m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com>
>> ag30476 [at] gmail.com wrote:
>>>
>> That is not, IMO, the interesting question...It is not important
>> how he had planned to get from Godric's Hollow to Surrey, but
>> rather what he did in the time when he was not travelling.
>
> It's not necessarily an important question but just how did he
> plan to go back?
The question is pointless. There are so many means of transport
available for wizards, that asking which one Hagrid was intending to
use is besides the point. He may not even have known -- for all we know
he could have been making it up as he went.
>>> Conclusion 1: Hagrid went to Godric's Hollow with some means of
>>> transport, most likely a flying transport.
>>
>> Or he was taken there by side-along Apparation (e.g. by
>> Dumbledore, who would then have moved on immediately).
>
> Then why didn't Dumbledore go himself?
Dumbledore, quite obviously, had weightier matters to attend to than
the caring for a baby child. Seeing to the future safety of said child
and divining what had actually happened, for instance.
> If the Floo network was operating to GH why didn't Lilly and Harry
> Floo out of there? OK maybe there is no Floo network IN GH or you
> can't Floo with a baby?
Of course there were fireplaces connected to the Floo network in
Godric's Hollow -- the village is named for a wizard and had at least
one wizard house and probably more.
The Potters' house may have been disconnected, made unreachable or
something when they hid there -- I doubt that the Fidelius Charm was
the only measure of security about the house.
> Why didn't Sirius Floo to GH? Floo is certainly faster than his
> bike.
As pointed out in the previous message, Sirius was not in any
particular hurry at that point.
>> Or he was visiting (or stationed) somewhere in Godric's Hollow to
>> look out for the Potters. In that scenario he had a message from
>> Dumbledore (possibly by Floo).
>
> If Hagrid was near GH then we must suppose McGonogall was near GH
> too.
No, we mustn't.
> Otherwise, he could not tell McGonogall.
Whoever said they actually met? McGonagall (note spelling) had been in
communication with Hagrid, but the books show enough means of
communication at a distance to provide some ideas of how it could be
managed.
Assuming that McGonagall was looking for Dumbledore at the time she
communicated with Hagrid, it would have been /after/ she had heard the
rumours (confirmation of those was the real reason why she sought
Dumbledore), and it is perfectly possible that Hagrid were no longer in
Godric's Hollow at that time. For all we know, he might have taken
Harry to the then Headquarters of the Order of the Phoenix (not,
obviously, 12 Grimmauld Place), and McGonagall, seeking Dumbledore
there, contacted whoever was there to learn Dumbledore's whereabouts.
You continuously fail to look at all the available information, and
present your propositions as if they were the only possibilities, but
they are not. The old Holmesian maxim is still correct, but you have to
take a /lot/ of care to be really sure that you've truly eliminated
/all/ other possibilities.
<snip>
> That is, admittedly, a problem with the conclusions I posted. But
> any reconstruction must involve deductions from what is written
> and then further deductions after that.
No.
If you have to base your hypothesizing on shaky hypotheses, then you
have nothing.
<snip>
> Sirius is flamboyant but this is a life and death matter.
No it is not! Sirius was worried, yes, but all he had to go on was the
fact that Peter was not in his hide-out. Not enough reason for panic or
to claim a life-and-death situation.
<snip>
> Thanks for agreeing.
Don't get excited -- I do, most certainly, /not/ agree, and I find
serious faults with your attempts at logic.
> The secret is not the hiding place but the location of the hiding
> place.
Try checking again in OotP what the secret is (hint: it is revealed to
Harry on a piece of paper) and what the effect is. 'The hiding-place of
James and Lily Potter may be found at the Potters' house in Godric's
Hollow' mirrors very closely the later secret (as invoked by Dumbledore
himself) and would obviously have the same effect.
Narcissa /knew/ that Sirius was hiding in Grimmauld Place, and she knew
all about the house, but because of the Fidelius Charm, the secret of
which was that the house was the Headquarters of the Order, she would
not have been able to find it, even though she knew perfectly well the
address and the location of it -- the house simply wouldn't have
appeared to her.
The same naturally would apply at Godric's Hollow -- a secret along the
lines I describe above would have the same effect: that even those who
knew perfectly well that the house is there will not be able to see it.
<snip rest>
You're too fond of your speculations and hence fails to see what
refutes them: a common trap to fall into (I've been there myself), but
nonetheless a fallacy.
I am not, in this case, forwarding any particular idea, but merely
listing alternatives (some of which may even be refutable). You base
your argumentation on a kind of 'this is the only idea I can come up
with to explain X', and showing that there are a number of other
possible explanations sort of makes that argument void. Some of it is,
naturally, entirely possible in the sense that it is not directly
contradicted by canon (as is the Thestral transport idea), but that
applies to quite a lot of things and is a /very/ bad way to argue your
case.
--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail is <t.forch(a)email.dk>
We're leaving WISDOM
to starve and thirst
when we cultivate
KNOWLEDGE as such.
The very best comes
to the very worst
WHEN IGNORANTS
KNOW TOO MUCH.
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| Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers *** [message #300277 ] |
So, 16 Juli 2006 01:55 |
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Troels Forchhammer wrote:
> > It's not necessarily an important question but just how did he
> > plan to go back?
>
> The question is pointless. There are so many means of transport
> available for wizards, that asking which one Hagrid was intending to
> use is besides the point.
OK so you have a lack of curiosity but the question is not pointless in
the conext of the story. Wizards may have many means of travel but
Hagrid has fewer, he doesn't fly by broom and he can't apperate.
further, I think JK has shown that you would not normally take a baby
by appartaion or portkey. The question is one which goes to the heart
of SOD in the story. How was Hagrid going to get Harry to Provet Drive
before Sirius showed up? That YOU don't care is meaningless. The
question is still important StORYWISE.
> He may not even have known -- for all we know
> he could have been making it up as he went.
Like you.
> > Then why didn't Dumbledore go himself?
>
> Dumbledore, quite obviously, had weightier matters to attend to than
> the caring for a baby child. Seeing to the future safety of said child
> and divining what had actually happened, for instance.
Obviously it was MORE important to make the final destination safer
than to get the child. Let's see: 1) Make final safe place 2) Bring
child (if still alive) by less safe mean (Hagrid). That's obvious to
YOU but not to me.
Obviously finding out what really happened does not involve going tothe
scene of the crime, i.e. Godric's Hollow. Again, obvious to YOU but not
to me.
> Of course there were fireplaces connected to the Floo network in
> Godric's Hollow -- the village is named for a wizard and had at least
> one wizard house and probably more.
Of course, naturally, OBVIOUSLY. Not obvious to Sirius. he flew. Oh
yeah, I forgot. He's flamboyant.
> The Potters' house may have been disconnected, made unreachable or
> something when they hid there -- I doubt that the Fidelius Charm was
> the only measure of security about the house.
That's true.
> > Why didn't Sirius Floo to GH? Floo is certainly faster than his
> > bike.
>
> As pointed out in the previous message, Sirius was not in any
> particular hurry at that point.
LV is planning to kill Harry. Pettigrew is the SK. He's supposed to be
at a certain place. No, no urgency is invloved. OBVIOUSLY not.
> > If Hagrid was near GH then we must suppose McGonogall was near GH
> > too.
>
> No, we mustn't.
We must or we must assume Hadrig was near GH, got the message from DD,
went to somewhere where McG was, told McG, and then finally went to GH.
Or, we must assume Hadrig was near GH, got the message from DD, McG
goes to where Hadrig is without hearing from DD, harry waits for McG to
arrive then tells McG, and then finally went to GH. Which story is more
OBVIOUS to you.
> > Otherwise, he could not tell McGonogall.
>
> Whoever said they actually met? McGonagall (note spelling) had been in
> communication with Hagrid, but the books show enough means of
> communication at a distance to provide some ideas of how it could be
> managed.
So now you want to assume that DD messages Hagrid, Hagrid unsolicitedly
communicates by some remote means with McG (why?) or McG inititaates
remote messages with Hagrid. It seems to me that your version has more
asumptions than mine.
> Assuming that McGonagall was looking for Dumbledore at the time she
> communicated with Hagrid, it would have been /after/ she had heard the
> rumours (confirmation of those was the real reason why she sought
> Dumbledore), and it is perfectly possible that Hagrid were no longer in
> Godric's Hollow at that time. For all we know, he might have taken
> Harry to the then Headquarters of the Order of the Phoenix (not,
> obviously, 12 Grimmauld Place), and McGonagall, seeking Dumbledore
> there, contacted whoever was there to learn Dumbledore's whereabouts.
For all we know <snip>...that seems an even more elaborate
reconstruction than mine. Anyway, the possibility that it happened that
way does not disprove that it happened the way I described. What we
have to determine here is which is more likely.
> You continuously fail to look at all the available information, and
> present your propositions as if they were the only possibilities,
No YOU continuously choose to take what I say is the most likely as
meaning that I say it is the only possibility. It is possible that DD
could go to GH and pick up Harry but sends Hahrid instead but it does
not make sense to me. It seems to me that IF DD could pick up Harry
then he would becuase IMHO he should because IMHO that asures Harry's
safety.
And by the way, all my conclusions are based on the available info. It
is YOU who continoualy explain away questiosn with what MIGHT have
happened.
> The old Holmesian maxim is still correct, but you have to
> take a /lot/ of care to be really sure that you've truly eliminated
> /all/ other possibilities.
I'm not trying to eliminate possibilities but simply give the MOST
likely explanation.
> > That is, admittedly, a problem with the conclusions I posted. But
> > any reconstruction must involve deductions from what is written
> > and then further deductions after that.
>
> No.
>
> If you have to base your hypothesizing on shaky hypotheses, then you
> have nothing.
Whose hypothesis are shaky? Who said Hagrid may have gobne to GH with
know way to get HArry to Pivet Drive. Who supposes that there are many
ways to GH? Who supposes that Hagrid took Harry to Hogwarts first?
> > Sirius is flamboyant but this is a life and death matter.
>
> No it is not! Sirius was worried, yes, but all he had to go on was the
> fact that Peter was not in his hide-out. Not enough reason for panic or
> to claim a life-and-death situation.
After 11 years of terror and a direct threat to Harry, James and Lilly
ar willing to go into hidin cast the "extremly powerfile" FC and have
Pettigrew, the SK, go into hiding, but the gact the Pettigrew is
unacounted for is NOT a life or death matter. That blows my SOD. Of
course you can believe what you want.
> > Thanks for agreeing.
>
> Don't get excited -- I do, most certainly, /not/ agree, and I find
> serious faults with your attempts at logic.
Ditto.
> > The secret is not the hiding place but the location of the hiding
> > place.
>
> Try checking again in OotP what the secret is (hint: it is revealed to
> Harry on a piece of paper) and what the effect is. 'The hiding-place of
> James and Lily Potter may be found at the Potters' house in Godric's
> Hollow' mirrors very closely the later secret (as invoked by Dumbledore
> himself) and would obviously have the same effect.
Try re-reading the same again. When Harry reads, then house appears.
Without being told, he cannot find the house. How is that different
from what I am saying. If Pettigrew does not tell you in some way, then
you can't find where the Potter's are hiding, in other word you can't
LOCATE the place or in other words, the LOCATION is secret.
> Narcissa /knew/ that Sirius was hiding in Grimmauld Place, and she knew
> all about the house, but because of the Fidelius Charm, the secret of
> which was that the house was the Headquarters of the Order, she would
> not have been able to find it, even though she knew perfectly well the
> address and the location of it -- the house simply wouldn't have
> appeared to her.
Exactly waht I said. Try to understand what I said before disagreeing
(or agreeing in this case).
> The same naturally would apply at Godric's Hollow -- a secret along the
> lines I describe above would have the same effect: that even those who
> knew perfectly well that the house is there will not be able to see it.
Correct.
> You're too fond of your speculations and hence fails to see what
> refutes them: a common trap to fall into (I've been there myself), but
> nonetheless a fallacy.
You're too fond of hand waving away pertinent questions.
> I am not, in this case, forwarding any particular idea, but merely
> listing alternatives (some of which may even be refutable).
Again, alternatives do not refute other alternatives. You have not
shown my alternatives are impossible. You have merely shown (correclty)
that my version of events is not the only possibility. I arguing that
mine is the most likely, that is the one that makes the most sense.
Only one version is the absolute truth and JK has it,
> You base your argumentation on a kind of 'this is the only idea I can come up
> with to explain X',
No. I am saying that the other alternatives make less sense. For ex,
yes, GH could have been protecting Privet Drive. But why protect Privet
Drive before making sure Harry is safe?
> and showing that there are a number of other
> possible explanations sort of makes that argument void.
No it does not. Again, we should be arguing probabilities not
possibilities.
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| Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers *** [message #300279 ] |
So, 16 Juli 2006 02:02 |
|
gjw wrote:
> But it is highly unlikely that the bird
> would be able to actually tell Dumbledore anything about what happened
> at Godric's Hollow.
OK let me get this straight...you are willing to believe that a 150
year old wizard has a legendary creature called a phoenix as a
companinion and said creature can flay carrying 4 people despite it's
size, cry tears that heal, attack a much larger and dangerous opponent
(another legendary creature, a basilisk), apparate where wizards cannot
apparate (the Ministry), "swallow" an Aveda Kadevera curse and get
reborn, serve as a lookout, and sing a song of morurning ofr the dead
wizard...but NOT that it can communicate with DD? Oh no, NO!! That's
just crazy. Communicating with DD, what nonesense!
> (And why do you refer to Fawkes as "she"? It's a male.)
That was an oops on my part. We don't know if Fawkes is male, female,
neuter or tansgender...but let me not get into slashfic terroritory
here.
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| Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers *** [message #300283 ] |
So, 16 Juli 2006 04:04 |
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ag30476 [at] gmail.com wrote:
> Probably the conclusions here have been posted before. But I've been
> thinking about the events that happened at Godric's Hollow and Privet
> Drive and have come to some conclusions.
>
> Given:
> 1) There is a day between the incident at Godric's Hollow and the time
> Hadrig delivers baby Harry to Privet Drive. (This is widely accepted as
> per http://www.hp-lexicon.org/timelines/essays/timeline_potters. html)
Right. Evidently, when he rescued Harry, on or about Midnight, he
evidently already had instruction to meet Dumbledore at Privet Drive
the following midnight -- about 24 hours later.
> 2) Hagrid can't apparate or you can't apparate with a baby.
Perhaps. But he can use other methods, like magically propelled
rowboats, or maybe even take the train. Given that he had 24 hours to
get to his appointment, it is not at all implausible that he expected
to be able to get there with the help of minimal magic. I'm sure, for
instance, that Hagrid has access to the floo network, as long as he
knows of two reasonably large fireplaces somewhere near Privet Drive
and Godrick's Hollow respectfully.
> 3) Hagrid did not plan on meeting Sirius and getting his bike.
Yes. And when he got the bike he realized, he did not need to set out
as early as he had originally planned. Nonetheless, he slightly
miscalculated the time, and arrived a very few minutes late ... an easy
thing to do when a too-convenient means of transport makes one a bit
overconfident.
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| Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers *** [message #300289 ] |
So, 16 Juli 2006 06:15 |
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Toon escribió:
> On 14 Jul 2006 02:19:54 -0700, ag30476 [at] gmail.com wrote:
>
>
>>> That can't be the secret. we're told Vodlemort could look in their
>>> window and never see them. That means they are the secret somehow.
>> IF he could look in the window, THEN he could never see them...wouldn't
>> put it past JK to mean it that way. But I think it's more of a figure
>> of speech as in "You could be right in front of 12 Grimaud and never
>> see it."
>
> No, she was describing the power of the spell. So powerful, that if a
> secret is hidden from you, and you stumble upon it, you still can't
> see it. So, the Potters are secretly in the GH House. Even if
> Voldemort decides to check out this house, he'll never see them. So,
> he can see/find the house. He'd just find and empty house.
That makes me wonder what would happen if LV did manage to enter the
house, with the spell still working. Would he be able to walk around the
place, without seeing the Potters at all?
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| Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers *** [message #300291 ] |
So, 16 Juli 2006 07:45 |
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On 15 Jul 2006 17:02:34 -0700, ag30476 [at] gmail.com wrote:
>
>gjw wrote:
>> But it is highly unlikely that the bird
>> would be able to actually tell Dumbledore anything about what happened
>> at Godric's Hollow.
>OK let me get this straight...you are willing to believe that a 150
>year old wizard has a legendary creature called a phoenix as a
>companinion and said creature can flay carrying 4 people despite it's
>size, cry tears that heal, attack a much larger and dangerous opponent
>(another legendary creature, a basilisk), apparate where wizards cannot
>apparate (the Ministry), "swallow" an Aveda Kadevera curse and get
>reborn, serve as a lookout, and sing a song of morurning ofr the dead
>wizard...but NOT that it can communicate with DD? Oh no, NO!! That's
>just crazy. Communicating with DD, what nonesense!
I'm not unwilling to believe that Rowling could choose to make the
bird talk if she wanted to. I'm simply pointing out that she has not
chosen to do so.
In a magical universe, just about anything _can_ happen, but that
doesn't mean that everything that can happen _has_ happened. There
are countless creatures in the HP universe which do not talk. As far
as we know, the bird is one of them.
>> (And why do you refer to Fawkes as "she"? It's a male.)
>That was an oops on my part. We don't know if Fawkes is male, female,
>neuter or tansgender...but let me not get into slashfic terroritory
>here.
Actually, we do. This quote from CoS is Dumbledore talking to Harry
about Fawkes:
"It's a shame you had to see him on a Burning Day," said
Dumbledore, seating himself behind his desk. "He's really very
handsome most of the time, wonderful red and gold plumage."
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| Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers *** [message #300296 ] |
So, 16 Juli 2006 09:37 |
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On 15 Jul 2006 17:02:34 -0700, ag30476 [at] gmail.com wrote:
>..but NOT that it can communicate with DD? Oh no, NO!! That's
>just crazy. Communicating with DD, what nonesense!
Well, it dropped feathers as a warning before. I'm sure we can all
agree, it doesn't speak English, and DD doesn't speak Phoenix. I'm
sure Fawkes could communicate by flying in patterns, moving it's wings
in a semaphore language. Perhaps DD has a Speak-N-Spell for Fawkes to
type on.
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| Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers *** [message #300297 ] |
So, 16 Juli 2006 09:38 |
|
On Sat, 15 Jul 2006 23:15:39 -0500, drusilla <me [at] me.net> wrote:
>Toon escribió:
>> On 14 Jul 2006 02:19:54 -0700, ag30476 [at] gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>
>>>> That can't be the secret. we're told Vodlemort could look in their
>>>> window and never see them. That means they are the secret somehow.
>>> IF he could look in the window, THEN he could never see them...wouldn't
>>> put it past JK to mean it that way. But I think it's more of a figure
>>> of speech as in "You could be right in front of 12 Grimaud and never
>>> see it."
>>
>> No, she was describing the power of the spell. So powerful, that if a
>> secret is hidden from you, and you stumble upon it, you still can't
>> see it. So, the Potters are secretly in the GH House. Even if
>> Voldemort decides to check out this house, he'll never see them. So,
>> he can see/find the house. He'd just find and empty house.
>
>That makes me wonder what would happen if LV did manage to enter the
>house, with the spell still working. Would he be able to walk around the
>place, without seeing the Potters at all?
Nope. But what if they're asleep on the floor and he trips over them?
Is there like a buffer around them or such?
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| Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers *** [message #300312 ] |
So, 16 Juli 2006 13:03 |
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AG 30476 wrote:
> GJW wrote:
>> But it is highly unlikely that the bird would be able to actually tell
>> Dumbledore anything about what happened at Godric's Hollow.
> OK let me get this straight...you are willing to believe that a 150
> year old wizard has a legendary creature called a phoenix as a
> companinion and said creature can flay carrying 4 people despite it's
> size, cry tears that heal, attack a much larger and dangerous opponent
> (another legendary creature, a basilisk), apparate where wizards cannot
> apparate (the Ministry), "swallow" an Aveda Kadevera curse and get
> reborn, serve as a lookout, and sing a song of morurning ofr the dead
> wizard...but NOT that it can communicate with DD? Oh no, NO!! That's
> just crazy. Communicating with DD, what nonesense!
Not to mention Crookshanks communicating with Sirius, or snakes & Harry.
>> (And why do you refer to Fawkes as "she"? It's a male.)
> That was an oops on my part. We don't know if Fawkes is male
When we first met Fawkes in book 2 chapter 12, Dumbledore referred to
the bird as "he" or "him", (and also mentioned multiple phoenixes).
Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen
--
Free Margaret Blaine now!
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| Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers *** [message #300322 ] |
So, 16 Juli 2006 19:29 |
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gjw wrote:
> I'm not unwilling to believe that Rowling could choose to make the
> bird talk if she wanted to. I'm simply pointing out that she has not
> chosen to do so.
Agreed. I have no evidence that Fawkes can talk.Of course this does not
mean he can't talk.
But like I have said, any reconstruction of events at Godric's Hollow
before the revleation in book 7 must include some assumptions.
DD seems to know a lot about the goings on at GH. Some suppose he went
there or found out by some magical means. Some suppose someone who was
at GH told him what happened. ALL of these are possibilities. Which is
the most LIKELY? I think a spy at GH is the most likely. Let's cal this
assumption #1.
Who was the spy? Some have suggested a wizard like Snape or Lupin. Some
have suggested a magical creature such as a house elf. ALL are
possibilities. Which is most LIKELY? I think a magical creature is the
most likely spy. Let's call this assumption #2.
Which magical creature was th spy? Some have suggested a house-elf. I
suggest Fawkes is a good candidate. In my view, he is the best
candidate.. (I'm not claiming credit for saying this first. Someone
else may have claimed the same thing somewhere on the Internet but I
don't know.) Let's call this assumption #3.
Now assumption #3 requires that Fawkes be able to communicate with DD
somehow. This is assumption #4
So the logic goes DD's knowledge -> #1 (spy at GH) -> #2 (magical
creatuire spy) -> #3 (Fawkes is spy) -> #4 (Fawkes can communicate with
DD).
You are saying we have no evidence of #4 (that Fawkes can communicate
with DD). Granted. And with that you are arguing that #3 (Fawkes is the
spy) is unlikely. I disagree but OK. To me, it's not a bifg leap to
belive #4 (Fawkes can communicate). But I can't convince you of that.
Fine.
What about #2 (a magical creature was the spy at GH)? Do you agree with
that? Or how about #1 (there was a witness at GH that told DD what went
on)? Do you agree with that?
To me, those are actually more important to the reconstruction that #3
(Fawkes is the spy). That is, if you think some other magical creature
was DD's spy at GH, let's hear it.
> >That was an oops on my part. We don't know if Fawkes is male, female,
> >neuter or tansgender...but let me not get into slashfic terroritory
> >here.
>
> Actually, we do. This quote from CoS is Dumbledore talking to Harry
> about Fawkes:
>
> "It's a shame you had to see him on a Burning Day," said
> Dumbledore, seating himself behind his desk. "He's really very
> handsome most of the time, wonderful red and gold plumage."
I stand corrcted. Thanks.
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| Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers *** [message #300323 ] |
So, 16 Juli 2006 19:36 |
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Toon wrote:
> Well, it dropped feathers as a warning before. I'm sure we can all
> agree, it doesn't speak English, and DD doesn't speak Phoenix. I'm
> sure Fawkes could communicate by flying in patterns, moving it's wings
> in a semaphore language. Perhaps DD has a Speak-N-Spell for Fawkes to
> type on.
LOL. Thanks. That puts a funny image in my head
DD: First word. Sounds like 'carry'. Um...fairy? Larry, Harry!
[Fawkes points to beak]
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| Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers *** [message #300324 ] |
So, 16 Juli 2006 19:37 |
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Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen wrote:
> When we first met Fawkes in book 2 chapter 12, Dumbledore referred to
> the bird as "he" or "him", (and also mentioned multiple phoenixes).
Yeah I totally forgot that. Someone else pointed that out too. Thanks.
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| Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers *** [message #300325 ] |
So, 16 Juli 2006 19:45 |
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DaveD wrote:
> There's lots of complex workings here (too many for my addled brain to
> follow lol) but what is the overall point you're trying to show? Yes there
> is a missing day to fill, but I don't see that filling it really adds to the
> story: it doesn't show anyone as being a secret DE/traitor or undercover
> agent of OoTP, or much about Harry's role in how he will destroy Voldy,
True. I wish I could figure those out too but I can't. So I got to
thiniking, just what could be figured out from what was given. I'm not
saying it has any value other than having entertained me. Of course, it
may not be as interesting to you.
On a side note, I do happen to aggee with the McG = evil theory that
has been posted on another thread. My reconstruction doesn't really add
anything to that theory (nor does it contracdict it).
> for example (or even if - shock horror - he's a horcrux!) apart from suggesting
> he may have a bit of a problem finding GH - and somehow I suspect he'll have
> lots of bigger (and more dramatic!) things to do such as finding and
> destroying all the other horcruxes and then Voldy. The question of whether
> he rides a broomstick or a thestral to get to GH seems pretty small beer by
> comparison!
Trure again. The big problem for Harry in book 7 is killing LV. But I
think getting to GH will be a minore problem at the beginning of book 7
- a minor test along the way.
> Sorry if I missed the point somewhere along the way after all the hard work
> you've put into it :)
No I think you didn't miss the point at all.
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| Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers *** [message #300327 ] |
So, 16 Juli 2006 20:09 |
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Toon wrote:
> No, she was describing the power of the spell. So powerful, that if a
> secret is hidden from you, and you stumble upon it, you still can't
> see it. So, the Potters are secretly in the GH House. Even if
> Voldemort decides to check out this house, he'll never see them. So,
> he can see/find the house. He'd just find and empty house.
Yes that could be the nature of the secret of GH. But in book 5 we saw
how the FC worked on 12 Grimmauld. Harry could be in front of the house
but until DD told him the secret he could not see it (and more
importantly, enter it). In fact, in book 6, Snape explains that he
can't tell the DE's the location (that is how to get to) the OoP HQ
because of the FC.
Of course, the secret to GH may be different. But McG at Privet Drive
tells DD that wizards (McG says 'they') are saying that LV went to GH.
I think with this and the nature of the FC for 12 Grimmauld, we can
conclude that nature of the FC at GH is similar to the nature of the
secert at 12 Grimmauld. Again, nothing taht others have not said.
Many have long supposed that DD and Hagrid were in on the secret at GH
(along with those we KNOW that knew the secret: James, Lilly, Sirius,
Pettigrew, and LV).
All, I'm saying is what if we suppose that DD and Hagrid DID NOT know
the secret of GH, does it make more sense? Yes, it is a supposition but
so is supposing that DD and Hagrid did know. IMHO, the storyline makes
more sense if DD and Hagrid do not know the secret of GH but use some
means to bypass the secret (Fawkes or a Thestral).
> >Again, another assumption. Yes, nothing says there is no FC Break
> >spell. But nothing syas there is an FC break spell. Nothing says Sirius
> >can apparate. Nothing says he can't either.
>
> Well, there has to be,e because a secret could no longer need to be
> kept secret. Nobody expected the Potters to die. So, there has to be
> a way to break the FC and let them be seen by anyone there. let alone
> any number of secrets that are no longer needed to be kept.
Look you're saying that the FC was broken. I'm saying that it is not.
We don't really know. We can make deductions from the story. It may
SEEM like the secret is broken but if you really look at it, every
scene that mentions GH does not really prove that the secret at GH is
broken. That is, as per usual JK style, the scense are ambigouos and
can be interpreted in more than one way. For ex, DD and McG are talking
about LV's visit to GH at Privet Drive. It SEEMS as though the secret
is out but we know that the DE's can talk about the OotP HQ without
going there. Hagrid goes to GH and that would SEEM to be a pretty
strong case for the FC being broken or for Hagrid being in on the
secret. But the fact that Hagrid gets there and uses Siriu's bike to
get to Privet Drive is very curious to me. The fact that DD does not go
to GH himself is very curious to me. Both facts point (at least to me)
to the possibility (or I should say probability) that DD and Hagrid do
not know the secret but use some exceptional means to bypass the FC.
> Of course, it took 50 years from the invention of the can to invent
> the can openers, so maybe the secret is permanent..
Well it would be sillier to invent the can opener before inventing the
can.
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| Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers *** [message #300328 ] |
So, 16 Juli 2006 20:12 |
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drusilla wrote:
> Toon escribi=F3:
> > No, she was describing the power of the spell. So powerful, that if a
> > secret is hidden from you, and you stumble upon it, you still can't
> > see it. So, the Potters are secretly in the GH House. Even if
> > Voldemort decides to check out this house, he'll never see them. So,
> > he can see/find the house. He'd just find and empty house.
>
> That makes me wonder what would happen if LV did manage to enter the
> house, with the spell still working. Would he be able to walk around the
> place, without seeing the Potters at all?
Why assume all that. We have an example of the FC at 12 Grimmauld. It's
easiest to suppose that the FC at GH works the same as the FC at 12
Grimmauld. And nothing in the text seems to suggest otherwise.
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