|
Sprinkler Systems
Uhaul move
Lawn care
Roses and trees
Ford Parts
Chrysler Parts
Lake Powell
New IPod Touch Apps
New IPhone Apps
IPhone Apps
IPad Information
IPad Apps
Android APPS
Android Games APPS
Android Systems
Android Tablets APPS and Beyond
Smartphone Apps
Smartphone Games Apps Repair and Tools
Tablet PC
Car Sharing Car Leasing
Tabler Pc
Fly Fishing
Toyota Cars
Vacation Rentals
Stock market
NYSE
SSE Stock
Freight & Shipping News
Gluten
Lactose
Gout
My Coupon Life
Campgrounds Check
Outdoor
Kitchen Design and Redoo
Bath Remodeling
Palm Springs
Las Vegas Vacation Tipps
Lake Powell Boating
Homes for lease
Electric and green Car Blog
Pearls and diamonds
Whatsapp and forget SMS Blog, What is Whatsapp App
Solar Panel Solar Energie Sun Power Blog
|
Music / Musik » alt.fan.frank-zappa » Made In America.......
| Made In America....... [message #291781] |
Di, 27 Juni 2006 00:11 |
|
'MADE IN AMERICA' OUR ONLY HOPE
If addiction to foreign oil is a bad thing, why isn't addiction to
foreign manufacturing?
It's a serious question, and the future of American prosperity and
security hangs on it.
If we believe it is wrong to allow foreign countries to control one
essential part of our economy, why is it not wrong to allow foreign
countries to control another essential part of our economy?
We doggedly try to throw off reliance on foreign oil while we
wholeheartedly throw ourselves into ever-greater reliance on foreign
manufacturing. How can both policies be right?
The simple fact is that they are not.
The simple fact is that self-reliance is always right and international
dependence is always wrong.
And it is astounding that the people in Washington refuse to see that.
It is astounding that the people in Washington are so in bed with the
people profiting from the imperiling of America that they not only
don't sound the alarm of economic jeopardy, they promote policies
which actively create it.
One aspect is the trade deficit. We buy dramatically more from the
world that we sell to it. We get their stuff and they get our money,
and that will work fine until we run out of money.
Which will come sooner rather than later. We are a nation engaged not
in the making of wealth, but in the dissipation of wealth. And each
year ever more billions of dollars go overseas to enrich foreigners
with money from the pockets of Americans.
That is because they make things and we don't.
American manufacturing is in collapse. We make a tiny fraction of what
we use. Many whole manufacturing segments have been lost to overseas
producers. The day-to-day items used by American families are only
rarely produced by American manufacturers.
There are a variety of reasons for this. One is that American labor is
too expensive. Another is that American business is too expensive.
Though greed of unions and executives plays a role in both those
situations, most guilt lies with the government. We have so encrusted
the workplace with regulations, taxes and expenses that American
manufacturing has been priced out of existence. In an effort to protect
the American worker, the government has made him obsolete. The prudent
workplace safeguards begun a century ago in the mining and meat
industries have grown like a cancer to cripple and kill almost all
American manufacturing.
In addition, the government's slavish dedication to "free trade"
in recent years has opened our economy to gang rape by everyone from
China to Mexico. Other nations practice natural - and sometimes
ruthless - protection of their own self-interest while the United
States rolls over and gives the world free shot at its unprotected
underbelly. We have repeatedly made trade decisions which have ravaged
our interests.
And traitorous corporate types have led a stampede of jobs and
factories overseas. Countless American companies - which rose to
wealth and prominence on the back of the American worker - have
gutted their American workforces and built sweatshops in Asia and Latin
America. Companies enrich themselves on the American consumer and
distance themselves from the American worker, seemingly oblivious to
the fact that they are one and the same.
Compounding the situation is government neglect of multiple issues,
resulting in the export of American jobs and the import of Mexican
workers and the volatile social imbalance that results.
So here we are. "Made in the U.S.A." is a novelty and "Made in
China" is a given. And the "free trade" zealots, drinking freely
of the Kool-Aid of national economic suicide, mock those of us who are
uncomfortable. They tell us to take an economics course, and they give
little sermons on capitalism, all the while not having the foggiest
idea what they're talking about.
Because the facts remain.
The man you rely on is your master.
That's true if he's pumping your oil or making your trinkets.
When he decides not to supply you anymore, or when you can't afford
to pay his tab, you stop being his customer and start being his - uh
- female dog. When somebody else controls supply, and you are awash
in demand, they have you by the short hairs. We understand that when it
comes to oil, but we ignore it when it comes to manufacturing.
And we do so at our own peril.
Because we won't always be rich and the world won't always be at
peace. And every lesson of human existence teaches us the virtue of
self-reliance. Yet we pretend the simple strengths of frugality and
independence no longer matter. The only outcome for such a course of
action is disaster. If we're lucky it will only be economic disaster.
Hopefully the other nations of the world will be content to bankrupt
us, and won't seek to invade us. Hopefully it will be enough for them
to hold our debt and break our industry and employ us like serfs or
sharecroppers on a land that used to be our own.
We dance at the end of a string held by OPEC and Hugo Chavez, and soon
we will dance at the end of another string held by the Chinese.
We gained our independence on the battlefield, we're going to lose it
in the check-out line. Once we belonged to a British king. Soon we will
belong to an Arab oilman and a Chinese manufacturer.
And the people in Washington couldn't be happier.
- by Bob Lonsberry =A9 2006
|
|
|
| Re: Made In America....... [message #291791 ] |
Di, 27 Juni 2006 13:49 |
|
The old geezer wrote:
.....
> We have so encrusted
> the workplace with regulations, taxes and expenses that American
> manufacturing has been priced out of existence. In an effort to protect
> the American worker, the government has made him obsolete. The prudent
> workplace safeguards begun a century ago in the mining and meat
> industries have grown like a cancer to cripple and kill almost all
> American manufacturing.
>
Hmm, for some background on this try reading Alistair Cook's "American
Journey", which is about an extensive trip he made round the USA in 1942
to see how ordinary folk were living and how they were affected by the
war (this was just after Perl Harbour). I suspect you'll be surprised at
the conditions a lot or people lived in and just how badly the likes of
Henry Ford treated his workers. He wrote it at the end of his journey
but it was declared unpublishable because the book buying public didn't
want to know how the other half lived. The manuscript was rediscovered
shortly before he died and has just been published.
Alistair Cook was originally a British newsman who became a US citizen
in 1942 and reported on the US scene until his death in 2004. He was a
good guy and a good, fair, balanced commentator. His "Letter From
America" was a weekly BBC program that ran from the late 40s until
shortly before his death. It was one of the highlights of my listening week.
--
martin [at] | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |
|
|
|
| Re: Made In America....... [message #291792 ] |
Di, 27 Juni 2006 15:21 |
|
In article <8ki7n3-3ee.ln1 [at] zoogz.gregorie.org>,
Martin Gregorie <martin [at] see.sig.for.address> wrote:
> Alistair Cook was originally a British newsman who became a US citizen
> in 1942 and reported on the US scene until his death in 2004. He was a
> good guy and a good, fair, balanced commentator. His "Letter From
> America" was a weekly BBC program that ran from the late 40s until
> shortly before his death. It was one of the highlights of my listening week.
In the States, he was best known as host of Masterpiece Theatre on PBS.
--Charles
|
|
|
| Re: Made In America....... [message #291807 ] |
Di, 27 Juni 2006 23:05 |
|
Charles Ulrich wrote:
> In article <8ki7n3-3ee.ln1 [at] zoogz.gregorie.org>,
> Martin Gregorie <martin [at] see.sig.for.address> wrote:
>
>> Alistair Cook was originally a British newsman who became a US citizen
>> in 1942 and reported on the US scene until his death in 2004. He was a
>> good guy and a good, fair, balanced commentator. His "Letter From
>> America" was a weekly BBC program that ran from the late 40s until
>> shortly before his death. It was one of the highlights of my listening week.
>
> In the States, he was best known as host of Masterpiece Theatre on PBS.
>
Thanks, Charles. I'd always wondered how well known he was in the USA
and what he was known for.
Was the "Letter From America" series ever broadcast on your side of the
pond? I'd have thought it was a good candidate for PBS to repeat because
it was straight reportage/analysis for people with a reasonable
knowledge of American current events. The talks had very little of the
"explanation for foreigners" type stuff that is so annoying when you
live there.
--
martin [at] | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |
|
|
|
| Re: Made In America....... [message #291808 ] |
Di, 27 Juni 2006 23:10 |
|
In article <e5j8n3-blr.ln1 [at] zoogz.gregorie.org>,
Martin Gregorie <martin [at] see.sig.for.address> wrote:
> Charles Ulrich wrote:
> > In article <8ki7n3-3ee.ln1 [at] zoogz.gregorie.org>,
> > Martin Gregorie <martin [at] see.sig.for.address> wrote:
> >
> >> Alistair Cook was originally a British newsman who became a US citizen
> >> in 1942 and reported on the US scene until his death in 2004. He was a
> >> good guy and a good, fair, balanced commentator. His "Letter From
> >> America" was a weekly BBC program that ran from the late 40s until
> >> shortly before his death. It was one of the highlights of my listening
> >> week.
> >
> > In the States, he was best known as host of Masterpiece Theatre on PBS.
> >
> Thanks, Charles. I'd always wondered how well known he was in the USA
> and what he was known for.
Masterpiece Theatre is an American show that re-presents British shows,
mostly BBC dramatizations of literary works. In the early 1970s, I
remember watching Elizabeth R (with Glenda Jackson), Last Of The
Mohicans, Point Counter Point, and several Lord Peter Wimsey novels
(with Ian Carmichael). They also showed Upstairs Downstairs, which
baffled a British friend of mine. He said it would be like Brits calling
Kojak reruns masterpieces.
Anyway, Alistair Cooke was host from 1971 through 1993. He would give
background at the beginning and end of each program. Sort of like Peter
Graves in the A&E Biography version of the BBC Late Show on FZ, except
that he knew what he was talking about.
Cooke was famous enough as host of Masterpiece Theatre to be parodied in
a long-running gag on Sesame Street
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alistair_Cookie>.
> Was the "Letter From America" series ever broadcast on your side of the
> pond?
Not that I know of.
--Charles
|
|
|
| Re: Made In America....... [message #292235 ] |
Mi, 28 Juni 2006 02:11 |
|
This story is something I hear on birthday party's. Everybody's drinking
beer and complaining that western (U.S. Europe)economies are loosong the
battle with asian econonies.
Yes, asians are good at making Fender guitars and cars and ships and
whatever!
So what!
A country should make products at which they are good at. And the thing is
that Asia is good at (is better at) making simple things like guitars and
cars and ships and software etc etc etc.
So let's rethink our (western) business.
What are we good at?
What you are good at, that's what you can sell.
And if you're not good at anything, than protectionism is the only answer!
Harry
|
|
|
| Re: Made In America....... [message #292238 ] |
Mi, 28 Juni 2006 04:42 |
|
Ome Har wrote:
> And if you're not good at anything, than protectionism is the only answer!
If you're not good at anything, then wisely investing your capital
(should you be lucky to have any) is one answer.
Lowering your labor cost is another answer. And a better one than
protectionism.
Investing in infrastructure (especially education) to lower costs and
develop new competitive advantages are other answers (but if you've
been running a budget deficit and a current account deficit, and you
have an executive presided over by a guy who's perfected playing stupid
all his life ...).
Cheers
|
|
|
| Re: Made In America....... [message #293238 ] |
Mi, 28 Juni 2006 15:01 |
|
In article <ulrich-391C50.15495227062006 [at] shawnews>, Charles Ulrich
<ulrich [at] sfu.ca> wrote:
> Masterpiece Theatre is an American show that re-presents British shows,
> mostly BBC dramatizations of literary works. In the early 1970s, I
> remember watching ..... Point Counter Point ...
....by Aldous Huxley. Theme song: Noel Coward's "Twentieth Century
Blues" as sung by Rudy Vallee;
> and several Lord Peter Wimsey novels
> (with Ian Carmichael).
Very fine stuff.
"Mahstahpiece Theatah is made possible through
a grahnt from........Mobil Cawporation."
Oil companies would actually do things like that
once upon a time.......Texaco finally gave up on
the Metropolitan Opera Saturday broadcasts
a while back, I think, after 65 or so years.......
John Henley
|
|
|
| Re: Made In America....... [message #293239 ] |
Mi, 28 Juni 2006 16:19 |
|
bilh [at] pd.jaring.my wrote:
>
> Lowering your labor cost is another answer. And a better one than
> protectionism.
>
Only if its done fairly: investing in ways of increasing productivity is
fair enough.
However, if the owners cut wages by firing permanent staff and hiring
them back as contractors, which happened a lot in America in the '90s,
then that's just pushing overheads (training, medical, pension, etc.)
onto the workers. That's not fair at all unless the owners also take a
pay cut and/or give up the same benefits they just stopped paying to
staff. However, the bosses typically celebrate with a larger slice of
the pie. Meanwhile, productivity hasn't increased, so the business
position hasn't improved in its market but they *have* pissed off a lot
of useful workers who, as a result, no longer give a shit about the company.
> Investing in infrastructure (especially education) to lower costs and
> develop new competitive advantages are other answers (but if you've
> been running a budget deficit and a current account deficit, and you
> have an executive presided over by a guy who's perfected playing stupid
> all his life ...).
>
No comment. You in the USA collectively voted him in and gave him a
second term. We didn't.
--
martin [at] | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |
|
|
|
| Re: Made In America....... [message #293240 ] |
Mi, 28 Juni 2006 17:15 |
|
In article <mofan3-3b8.ln1 [at] zoogz.gregorie.org>, Martin Gregorie
<martin [at] see.sig.for.address> wrote:
> No comment. You in the USA collectively voted him in and gave him a
> second term. We didn't.
With all due respect, "collectively" isn't so. He barely
squeaked through both elections, and there is strong
reason to believe the elections were fraudulent. More
than half of the voters here didn't want him. Half
or more of those who _did_ vote for him don't want
him now. There is a _lot_ of unhappiness in the USA
over the state of things.
John Henley
|
|
|
| Re: Made In America....... [message #293249 ] |
Do, 29 Juni 2006 00:11 |
|
Martin Gregorie wrote:
> bilh [at] pd.jaring.my wrote:
>
>>
>> Lowering your labor cost is another answer. And a better one than
>> protectionism.
>>
> Only if its done fairly: investing in ways of increasing productivity is
> fair enough.
>
> However, if the owners cut wages by firing permanent staff and hiring
> them back as contractors, which happened a lot in America in the '90s,
> then that's just pushing overheads (training, medical, pension, etc.)
> onto the workers. That's not fair at all unless the owners also take a
> pay cut and/or give up the same benefits they just stopped paying to
> staff.
Then staff should shop around for another employer. If
there is none, then they takes what they gets.
> However, the bosses typically celebrate with a larger slice of
> the pie.
That is a different market. The bosses have to do rather
Zappa-like things on cable financial shows and in the press to
compete for stockholders.
If you wish to point fingers, point 'em at the shareholders - who
could probably care less.
> Meanwhile, productivity hasn't increased, so the business
> position hasn't improved in its market but they *have* pissed off a lot
> of useful workers who, as a result, no longer give a shit about the
> company.
>
Workers shouldn't care, much. If productivity isn't increasing,
the company is doomed, anyway.
Yadda yadda "union mentality" yada yadda... not that unions
are Bad, just that they have the potential to cause problems.
>
>> Investing in infrastructure (especially education) to lower costs and
>> develop new competitive advantages are other answers (but if you've
>> been running a budget deficit and a current account deficit, and you
>> have an executive presided over by a guy who's perfected playing stupid
>> all his life ...).
>>
> No comment. You in the USA collectively voted him in and gave him a
> second term. We didn't.
>
>
Yet the other guy very likely would have done much the same
stuff...
--
Lea Cargill
|
|
|
| Re: Made In America....... [message #293250 ] |
Mi, 28 Juni 2006 23:37 |
|
John Henley wrote:
> In article <mofan3-3b8.ln1 [at] zoogz.gregorie.org>, Martin Gregorie
> <martin [at] see.sig.for.address> wrote:
>
>> No comment. You in the USA collectively voted him in and gave him a
>> second term. We didn't.
>
> With all due respect, "collectively" isn't so. He barely
> squeaked through both elections, and there is strong
> reason to believe the elections were fraudulent. More
> than half of the voters here didn't want him. Half
> or more of those who _did_ vote for him don't want
> him now. There is a _lot_ of unhappiness in the USA
> over the state of things.
>
I was being precise when I said "collectively" because like it or not,
and I know a lot of you don't like Bush, it was Americans collectively
who voted to let him in and somehow forgot to kick the arses of those
who should have stopped the fraud and didn't. I saw the "Fahrenheit 911"
clip: all the Democratic Senators who knew about the irregularities and
stayed silent should stand up and take a bow.
If I'd been using loose language I'd have said "you all voted him in"
and that would have been both incorrect and unfair to those who didn't
vote for him.
======
Besides, we're no better: we collectively voted in the unprincipled
right wing gang who call themselves "New Labour" and their value free,
leader Tony Blair. They also failed to poll a majority the last two
times. Whats worse, we've done it three times. At least your dunce has
only been elected twice.
--
martin [at] | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |
|
|
|
| Re: Made In America....... [message #293251 ] |
Do, 29 Juni 2006 00:25 |
|
In article <fe9bn3-6ld.ln1 [at] zoogz.gregorie.org>,
Martin Gregorie <martin [at] see.sig.for.address> wrote:
> John Henley wrote:
> > In article <mofan3-3b8.ln1 [at] zoogz.gregorie.org>, Martin Gregorie
> > <martin [at] see.sig.for.address> wrote:
> >
> >> No comment. You in the USA collectively voted him in and gave him a
> >> second term. We didn't.
> >
> > With all due respect, "collectively" isn't so. He barely
> > squeaked through both elections, and there is strong
> > reason to believe the elections were fraudulent. More
> > than half of the voters here didn't want him. Half
> > or more of those who _did_ vote for him don't want
> > him now. There is a _lot_ of unhappiness in the USA
> > over the state of things.
> >
> I was being precise when I said "collectively"
But not when you said "you", given that you were replying to someone in
Malaysia.
--Charles
|
|
|
| Re: Made In America....... [message #293252 ] |
Do, 29 Juni 2006 01:14 |
|
<bilh [at] pd.jaring.my> schreef in bericht
news:1151462547.455735.7190 [at] m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
> Ome Har wrote:
>
> > And if you're not good at anything, than protectionism is the only
answer!
>
> If you're not good at anything, then wisely investing your capital
> (should you be lucky to have any) is one answer.
>
> Lowering your labor cost is another answer. And a better one than
> protectionism.
>
I'm not saying protectionism is the answer. It is what a lot of people are
talking about. Let's close our borders for cheap labour or products.
And a lot of so called "entrepeneurs" nowadays are busy with "cutting costs"
instead of inventing new things or ways to do business. They have become
bookkeepers. Only thinking of short term profit.
|
|
|
| Re: Made In America....... [message #293258 ] |
Do, 29 Juni 2006 11:07 |
|
Charles Ulrich wrote:
> In article <fe9bn3-6ld.ln1 [at] zoogz.gregorie.org>,
> Martin Gregorie <martin [at] see.sig.for.address> wrote:
>
>> John Henley wrote:
>>> In article <mofan3-3b8.ln1 [at] zoogz.gregorie.org>, Martin Gregorie
>>> <martin [at] see.sig.for.address> wrote:
>>>
>>>> No comment. You in the USA collectively voted him in and gave him a
>>>> second term. We didn't.
>>> With all due respect, "collectively" isn't so. He barely
>>> squeaked through both elections, and there is strong
>>> reason to believe the elections were fraudulent. More
>>> than half of the voters here didn't want him. Half
>>> or more of those who _did_ vote for him don't want
>>> him now. There is a _lot_ of unhappiness in the USA
>>> over the state of things.
>>>
>> I was being precise when I said "collectively"
>
> But not when you said "you", given that you were replying to someone in
> Malaysia.
>
John's in Malaysia these days? Its mighty hard the tell that when his
message header fields all point to the university of Texas.
--
martin [at] | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |
|
|
|
| Re: Made In America....... [message #293259 ] |
Do, 29 Juni 2006 11:28 |
|
Les Cargill wrote:
> Martin Gregorie wrote:
>
>> However, if the owners cut wages by firing permanent staff and hiring
>> them back as contractors, which happened a lot in America in the '90s,
>> then that's just pushing overheads (training, medical, pension, etc.)
>> onto the workers. That's not fair at all unless the owners also take a
>> pay cut and/or give up the same benefits they just stopped paying to
>> staff.
>
> Then staff should shop around for another employer. If
> there is none, then they takes what they gets.
>
Indeed - and just hos does that improve the company's chances when its
skilled and/or knowledgeable folks vote with their feet? Don't forget
that what the managers think their staff do and what they *actually* do
to make the business run are often two different things. Ask any
business process analyst if you doubt that.
Some time back when I was working with a poorly documented American
financial infrastructure package I was lucky enough to work briefly with
one of their real gurus. He was a good guy, we got on and drank a few
beers so I asked about the poor documentation. Hes reply was that if he
ever wrote it all down properly he'd be fired next week as no longer
needed - and he was, in my opinion, a key staff member. I bet there's a
lot of that goes on in other businesses too.
> That is a different market. The bosses have to do rather
> Zappa-like things on cable financial shows and in the press to
> compete for stockholders.
>
So what, its still the same company. If a boss damages the company by
causing long-serving staff to leave he should share the grief, not pay
himself a bonus.
> If you wish to point fingers, point 'em at the shareholders - who
> could probably care less.
>
True, and in the UK anyway, we know who they are: the big financial
institutions, not the general public, are the majority shareholders
here. Does the same apply in the States?
> Yadda yadda "union mentality" yada yadda... not that unions
> are Bad, just that they have the potential to cause problems.
>
Your words, not mine. I've never belonged to a union and never expect
to. I was talking about the duty of care owed to staff by management.
What goes round comes round - even to the likes of Ken Lay.
>
> Yet the other guy very likely would have done much the same
> stuff...
>
If you're talking about Blair: New Labour are cynical enough but haven't
quite gotten away with it to the same extent as your lot. We have fewer
unelected officials in positions of fairly absolute power.
If you mean your lot: from here it looks as if you only have one
political party - the Republicrats. Isn't it about time somebody started
another?
--
martin [at] | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |
|
|
|
| Re: Made In America....... [message #293262 ] |
Do, 29 Juni 2006 15:28 |
|
In article <vrhcn3-6tn.ln1 [at] zoogz.gregorie.org>, Martin Gregorie
<martin [at] see.sig.for.address> wrote:
> John's in Malaysia these days? Its mighty hard the tell that when his
> message header fields all point to the university of Texas.
How do you say "Hook 'Em Horns!" in Malay?
JH
|
|
|
| Re: Made In America....... [message #293263 ] |
Do, 29 Juni 2006 17:40 |
|
In article <vrhcn3-6tn.ln1 [at] zoogz.gregorie.org>,
Martin Gregorie <martin [at] see.sig.for.address> wrote:
> Charles Ulrich wrote:
> > In article <fe9bn3-6ld.ln1 [at] zoogz.gregorie.org>,
> > Martin Gregorie <martin [at] see.sig.for.address> wrote:
> >
> >> John Henley wrote:
> >>> In article <mofan3-3b8.ln1 [at] zoogz.gregorie.org>, Martin Gregorie
> >>> <martin [at] see.sig.for.address> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> No comment. You in the USA collectively voted him in and gave him a
> >>>> second term. We didn't.
> >>> With all due respect, "collectively" isn't so. He barely
> >>> squeaked through both elections, and there is strong
> >>> reason to believe the elections were fraudulent. More
> >>> than half of the voters here didn't want him. Half
> >>> or more of those who _did_ vote for him don't want
> >>> him now. There is a _lot_ of unhappiness in the USA
> >>> over the state of things.
> >>>
> >> I was being precise when I said "collectively"
> >
> > But not when you said "you", given that you were replying to someone in
> > Malaysia.
> >
> John's in Malaysia these days?
Not as far as I know. But when you first said "You in the USA", you were
replying to Bil <bilh [at] pd.jaring.my>.
--Charles
|
|
|
| Re: Made In America....... [message #293264 ] |
Do, 29 Juni 2006 22:36 |
|
Charles Ulrich wrote:
> In article <vrhcn3-6tn.ln1 [at] zoogz.gregorie.org>,
> Martin Gregorie <martin [at] see.sig.for.address> wrote:
>
>> Charles Ulrich wrote:
>>> In article <fe9bn3-6ld.ln1 [at] zoogz.gregorie.org>,
>>> Martin Gregorie <martin [at] see.sig.for.address> wrote:
>>>
>>>> John Henley wrote:
>>>>> In article <mofan3-3b8.ln1 [at] zoogz.gregorie.org>, Martin Gregorie
>>>>> <martin [at] see.sig.for.address> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> No comment. You in the USA collectively voted him in and gave him a
>>>>>> second term. We didn't.
>>>>> With all due respect, "collectively" isn't so. He barely
>>>>> squeaked through both elections, and there is strong
>>>>> reason to believe the elections were fraudulent. More
>>>>> than half of the voters here didn't want him. Half
>>>>> or more of those who _did_ vote for him don't want
>>>>> him now. There is a _lot_ of unhappiness in the USA
>>>>> over the state of things.
>>>>>
>>>> I was being precise when I said "collectively"
>>> But not when you said "you", given that you were replying to someone in
>>> Malaysia.
>>>
>> John's in Malaysia these days?
>
> Not as far as I know. But when you first said "You in the USA", you were
> replying to Bil <bilh [at] pd.jaring.my>.
>
> --Charles
Fair cop, guv.
--
martin [at] | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |
|
|
|
| Re: Made In America....... [message #293267 ] |
Fr, 30 Juni 2006 01:31 |
|
Martin Gregorie wrote:
> Les Cargill wrote:
>
>> Martin Gregorie wrote:
>>
>>> However, if the owners cut wages by firing permanent staff and hiring
>>> them back as contractors, which happened a lot in America in the
>>> '90s, then that's just pushing overheads (training, medical, pension,
>>> etc.) onto the workers. That's not fair at all unless the owners also
>>> take a pay cut and/or give up the same benefits they just stopped
>>> paying to staff.
>>
>>
>> Then staff should shop around for another employer. If
>> there is none, then they takes what they gets.
>>
> Indeed - and just hos does that improve the company's chances when its
> skilled and/or knowledgeable folks vote with their feet?
It depends on the company, and the folks. When companies are
cutting bennies, then that is a signal to the rank and file
that it's time to move on. Companies have a life cycle, too.
> Don't forget
> that what the managers think their staff do and what they *actually* do
> to make the business run are often two different things. Ask any
> business process analyst if you doubt that.
>
I don't doubt that in the least. It's very rare that anybody
in a business really understands that business at a very
deep level. Some people will have *an* understanding of the
accounting/instrumentation of the business, but very
rarely any depth at all.
The "higher level" the business is, the worse this will be.
The VC level seems to be the most pronounced version of this.
Back to Zappa, he was one of the few people of his rough
market cohort that *did* understand his business model
completely - at least, after the Warner's fiasco.
> Some time back when I was working with a poorly documented American
> financial infrastructure package I was lucky enough to work briefly with
> one of their real gurus. He was a good guy, we got on and drank a few
> beers so I asked about the poor documentation. Hes reply was that if he
> ever wrote it all down properly he'd be fired next week as no longer
> needed - and he was, in my opinion, a key staff member. I bet there's a
> lot of that goes on in other businesses too.
>
He's probably wrong, or he needs to be thinking about his next
move anyway.
>> That is a different market. The bosses have to do rather
>> Zappa-like things on cable financial shows and in the press to
>> compete for stockholders.
>>
> So what, its still the same company. If a boss damages the company by
> causing long-serving staff to leave he should share the grief, not pay
> himself a bonus.
>
Agreed. Now if we could only make that stick. The bonus is a signal
from the board to the world that "we're okay". Don't underestimate
just how much gilding of the lily goes on out there. Research just
how much outright theft of company property goes on - it's
generally swept under the rug. It's like that.
The bonus is an overt exercise in cognitive dissonance.
Unfortunately, our civilization has become rather deeply
addicted to congnitive dissonance, by virtue of exposure
to electronic media.
Knowing that the bonus is likely to work, an investor
has to anticipate the market reaction, not whether it's a
good idea in principle.
>> If you wish to point fingers, point 'em at the shareholders - who
>> could probably care less.
>>
> True, and in the UK anyway, we know who they are: the big financial
> institutions, not the general public, are the majority shareholders
> here. Does the same apply in the States?
>
Moreso. And this has been, largely, a good thing - having a
peice of a large diverse portfolio is a good thing.
>> Yadda yadda "union mentality" yada yadda... not that unions
>> are Bad, just that they have the potential to cause problems.
>>
> Your words, not mine. I've never belonged to a union and never expect
> to. I was talking about the duty of care owed to staff by management.
I think management owes them the opportunity to make
a difference, and not much else. I think that people
*in* management owe themselves the opportunity to be human,
to improve their chance of being mentally healthy, but
the rank and file should not be charges of the company.
This being said, the great and vast majority of people
in senior management that I've run into had a very good
grasp on this balance. The overwhelming majority
of people do very good work.
> What goes round comes round - even to the likes of Ken Lay.
>
I have a very different view of Enron, so I'll leave
this at that. Suffice it to say - what was Enron is most
certainly being operated as we speak. Just very quietly.
And Enron wasn't the dumbest example. Just a visible
one. The entire *world* went a great bit nuts there,
for a while. This was a learning curve thing. IPO
level financing and stock run ups are not how things
get done.
>>
>> Yet the other guy very likely would have done much the same
>> stuff...
>>
> If you're talking about Blair:
Gore, or Kerry. They're roughly interchangeable.
> New Labour are cynical enough but haven't
> quite gotten away with it to the same extent as your lot. We have fewer
> unelected officials in positions of fairly absolute power.
>
Elections are semiformal processes. Semiformal processes break
down, produce indeterminate results. That *literally* became
a Constitutional crisis. A "no confidence vote" Election in Britain
will be much less likely to produce an indeterminate result
because it's a "throw the bums out" thing. It has momentum towards
a solution going in.
> If you mean your lot: from here it looks as if you only have one
> political party - the Republicrats. Isn't it about time somebody started
> another?
>
>
I have to agree most vehemently with your statement, sir. The Dems
are far too preoccupied with snatching defeat from the jaws of
victory. It's total malpractice, and it has a sinister
tone to it - much more, IMO, sinister than the Republican
version ( which hubris will eventually constrain ).
Guys - you have to *win*. It's not the only thing, but it's
close.
Seriously - I think far too many senior Democrat guys "dropped
acid with somebody who understands God" one too many times
and are no longer capable of being effective. Great politicians
have to have a killer instinct...
--
Les Cargill
|
|
|
Gehe zu:
aktuelle Zeit: Mi Mai 23 02:54:07 CEST 2012
Insgesamt benötigte Zeit, um die Seite zu erzeugen: 0,49667 Sekunden |
