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Science Fiction » alt.startrek » United Earth
United Earth [message #228533] So, 12 März 2006 07:17
ToolPackinMama  
We all breathe the same air. We all gaze at the same sun and moon.
There's no more than six degrees of genetic separation between one human
and any other one human. We are all the same species.

Nationalism is a stupid idea that has never proven its value, and
therefore it is an idea that should maybe be abandoned. No other species
recognizes national boundaries, why should we?
Re: United Earth [message #228534 ] So, 12 März 2006 09:23
onelia  
"ToolPackinMama" <laura [at] lauragoodwin.org> wrote in message
news:moSdnapSw5VHIY7ZnZ2dnUVZ_s6dnZ2d [at] comcast.com...
> We all breathe the same air. We all gaze at the same sun and moon. There's
> no more than six degrees of genetic separation between one human and any
> other one human. We are all the same species.
>
> Nationalism is a stupid idea that has never proven its value, and
> therefore it is an idea that should maybe be abandoned. No other species
> recognizes national boundaries, why should we?

They may not recognize national boundaries but they will fight to the death
to protect "their" space. We really aren't that different.
Re: United Earth [message #228535 ] So, 12 März 2006 09:43
ToolPackinMama  
neils wrote:
> "ToolPackinMama" <laura [at] lauragoodwin.org> wrote in message
> news:moSdnapSw5VHIY7ZnZ2dnUVZ_s6dnZ2d [at] comcast.com...
>
>>We all breathe the same air. We all gaze at the same sun and moon. There's
>>no more than six degrees of genetic separation between one human and any
>>other one human. We are all the same species.
>>
>>Nationalism is a stupid idea that has never proven its value, and
>>therefore it is an idea that should maybe be abandoned. No other species
>>recognizes national boundaries, why should we?
>
>
> They may not recognize national boundaries but they will fight to the death
> to protect "their" space. We really aren't that different.

Actually, most species won't fight to the death to "defend" "their"
"space". Few species actually fight to the death with their own kind
over anything. Carnivores kill, but only to eat. Normally, males fight
each other on and individual basis over mating rights, but not to the death.
Re: United Earth [message #228539 ] So, 12 März 2006 14:49
Ragnar  
ToolPackinMama wrote:
> We all breathe the same air.

Well, not really. If we breathed the same air, that would mean we were
occupying the same space. That doesn't work.

> There's no more than six degrees of genetic separation between one human
> and any other one human.

Huh? Explain that in detail.

> Nationalism is a stupid idea that has never proven its value, and
> therefore it is an idea that should maybe be abandoned. No other species
> recognizes national boundaries, why should we?

Actually, lots of animals are territorial. They'll fight to defend it too.
Re: United Earth [message #228540 ] So, 12 März 2006 16:07
sdlitvin  
ToolPackinMama wrote:
> neils wrote:
>> "ToolPackinMama" <laura [at] lauragoodwin.org> wrote in message
>> news:moSdnapSw5VHIY7ZnZ2dnUVZ_s6dnZ2d [at] comcast.com...
>>
>>> We all breathe the same air. We all gaze at the same sun and moon.
>>> There's no more than six degrees of genetic separation between one
>>> human and any other one human. We are all the same species.
>>>
>>> Nationalism is a stupid idea that has never proven its value, and
>>> therefore it is an idea that should maybe be abandoned. No other
>>> species recognizes national boundaries, why should we?
>>
>>
>> They may not recognize national boundaries but they will fight to the
>> death to protect "their" space. We really aren't that different.
>
> Actually, most species won't fight to the death to "defend" "their"
> "space". Few species actually fight to the death with their own kind
> over anything.

Ants, among the most intelligent of the insect species, not only make
war and fight to the death, but the winning ant colony will make slaves
of the survivors of the losing ant colony.

Apparently when a species learns to survive as part of a large social
group, whether it's a colony of ants or a tribe of humans, they invent
war to make sure that they have Lebensraum for foraging.


--
Steven D. Litvintchouk
Email: sdlitvin [at] earthlinkNOSPAM.net

Remove the NOSPAM before replying to me.
Re: United Earth [message #228542 ] So, 12 März 2006 15:14
jsavard  
On Sun, 12 Mar 2006 01:17:17 -0500, ToolPackinMama
<laura [at] lauragoodwin.org> wrote, in part:

>We all breathe the same air. We all gaze at the same sun and moon.
>There's no more than six degrees of genetic separation between one human
>and any other one human. We are all the same species.

>Nationalism is a stupid idea that has never proven its value, and
>therefore it is an idea that should maybe be abandoned. No other species
>recognizes national boundaries, why should we?

That's all very well, but the primary benefits of "abandoning
nationalism" would come when the Hitlers and Stalins of this world
abandon nationalism. And *they* don't.

Groups of humans have organized themselves into tribes; some of these
tribes had sane and gentle cultures, others were psychopathic and preyed
on their neighbors. As history progressed, humans organized themselves
into larger groups, again, with forms of governance having various
degrees of sanity.

Wolves organize themselves into packs, chimpanzees organize themselves
into troops. For humans to have governmental structures that don't
embrace all humankind is not a unique phenomenon.

Eventually, when all the national governments of the world are sane and
gentle - that is, when they are all democracies like the U.S.A. or the
countries of Europe, and none of them are like the People's Republic of
China which gave us the Tienanmen Square massacre of 1989 - the wishes,
dreams, and desires of humanity will shine through.

Of course, even then, a One World Government might be considered
dangerous. If a tyrant somehow obtained control of it, then freedom
could end for the *entire* human race... forever.

That, of course, would be different once Earth ceased to be the home of
all the human beings there are or ever were or ever would be in the
foreseeable future. Once other worlds also had human populations, and
these worlds had some semblance of parity with Earth or isolation from
Earth.

So Earth will unite... in time for Star Trek. But not just now.

John Savard
http://www.quadibloc.com/index.html
_________________________________________
Usenet Zone Free Binaries Usenet Server
More than 140,000 groups
Unlimited download
http://www.usenetzone.com to open account
Re: United Earth [message #228543 ] So, 12 März 2006 15:24
jsavard  
On Sun, 12 Mar 2006 03:43:35 -0500, ToolPackinMama
<laura [at] lauragoodwin.org> wrote, in part:

>Actually, most species won't fight to the death to "defend" "their"
>"space". Few species actually fight to the death with their own kind
>over anything. Carnivores kill, but only to eat. Normally, males fight
>each other on and individual basis over mating rights, but not to the death.

Eventually, a male bird that loses fights over territory finds itself
driven to a territory no other bird wants. If the bird population has
reached equilibrium with the environment, that left-over territory will
not be suitable to its survival, and it will perish through starvation.

Still, you are correct that very few animal species fight to the death,
at least not to establish dominance order within a pack or tribe.

Chimpanzees or monkeys belonging to different tribes, however, *will*
fight to the death.

A troop of colobus monkeys may very well attack another troop, killing
all its males - and the babies as well, so that the females will stop
lactating and start menstruating, thus equipping themselves to get busy
bearing *their* children.

War, in all its ugliness, is not strictly a human invention.

That, of course, does not make it a good thing. But when the other
fellow is Stalin or Hitler, it is not silly to say that giving up war is
a good idea as long as the other fellow does it first.

If we have three choices...

- die;

- let the Taliban or the Wahhabis run our country; or

- fight back

I'm taking number 3.

I'm not going to cut any slack for beings who behave like Klingons
(TOS-era) or Romulans just because they belong to the same species as I
do. Whether your skin is pink, or brown - or blue; whether your blood is
red or green; what counts is if you permit others to live in peace and
freedom, or if you seek to extend tyranny by war.

John Savard
http://www.quadibloc.com/index.html
_________________________________________
Usenet Zone Free Binaries Usenet Server
More than 140,000 groups
Unlimited download
http://www.usenetzone.com to open account
Re: United Earth [message #228550 ] Mo, 13 März 2006 04:56
Kevin  
"ToolPackinMama" <laura [at] lauragoodwin.org> wrote in message
news:moSdnapSw5VHIY7ZnZ2dnUVZ_s6dnZ2d [at] comcast.com...
> We all breathe the same air. We all gaze at the same sun and moon. There's
> no more than six degrees of genetic separation between one human and any
> other one human. We are all the same species.
>
> Nationalism is a stupid idea that has never proven its value, and
> therefore it is an idea that should maybe be abandoned. No other species
> recognizes national boundaries, why should we?

No other species has self-awareness either. Homo Sapiens Sapiens does.
That's why we are now having this conversation. Nationalism, when not taken
to extremes like the Germans did when forming the Third Reich, has benefits.
Re: United Earth [message #228551 ] Mo, 13 März 2006 06:16
ANIM8Rfsk  
in article 44142d0e.2438312 [at] news.usenetzone.com, John Savard at
jsavard [at] excxn.aNOSPAMb.cdn.invalid wrote on 3/12/06 7:24 AM:

> On Sun, 12 Mar 2006 03:43:35 -0500, ToolPackinMama
> <laura [at] lauragoodwin.org> wrote, in part:
>
>> Actually, most species won't fight to the death to "defend" "their"
>> "space". Few species actually fight to the death with their own kind
>> over anything. Carnivores kill, but only to eat. Normally, males fight
>> each other on and individual basis over mating rights, but not to the death.
>
> Eventually, a male bird that loses fights over territory finds itself
> driven to a territory no other bird wants. If the bird population has
> reached equilibrium with the environment, that left-over territory will
> not be suitable to its survival, and it will perish through starvation.
>
> Still, you are correct that very few animal species fight to the death,
> at least not to establish dominance order within a pack or tribe.

hell, we feed cute little western cottontail bunny rabbits, and they'll
fight interlopers; they rear up on their hind legs and jump straight up and
down and all kinds of stuff.
>
> Chimpanzees or monkeys belonging to different tribes, however, *will*
> fight to the death.
>
> A troop of colobus monkeys may very well attack another troop, killing
> all its males - and the babies as well, so that the females will stop
> lactating and start menstruating, thus equipping themselves to get busy
> bearing *their* children.
>
> War, in all its ugliness, is not strictly a human invention.
>
> That, of course, does not make it a good thing. But when the other
> fellow is Stalin or Hitler, it is not silly to say that giving up war is
> a good idea as long as the other fellow does it first.
>
> If we have three choices...
>
> - die;
>
> - let the Taliban or the Wahhabis run our country; or
>
> - fight back
>
> I'm taking number 3.
>
> I'm not going to cut any slack for beings who behave like Klingons
> (TOS-era) or Romulans just because they belong to the same species as I
> do. Whether your skin is pink, or brown - or blue; whether your blood is
> red or green; what counts is if you permit others to live in peace and
> freedom, or if you seek to extend tyranny by war.
>
> John Savard
> http://www.quadibloc.com/index.html
> _________________________________________
> Usenet Zone Free Binaries Usenet Server
> More than 140,000 groups
> Unlimited download
> http://www.usenetzone.com to open account
Re: United Earth [message #228552 ] Mo, 13 März 2006 08:32
Ben C  
["Followup-To:" header set to alt.startrek.]
On 2006-03-13, Kevin <webman6 [at] hotmail.com> wrote:

> No other species [than "Homo Sapiens Sapiens"] has self-awareness either.

On what do you base that assumption?
Re: United Earth [message #228553 ] Mo, 13 März 2006 09:57
The Merry Piper  
On Sun, 12 Mar 2006 19:56:47 -0800, "Kevin" <webman6 [at] hotmail.com>
wrote:

>That's why we are now having this conversation. Nationalism, when not taken
>to extremes like the Germans did when forming the Third Reich, has benefits.

Such as? Just curious.

--
The Merry Piper
[http://tmpiper.livejournal.com]
If you want to dance, you'll have to pay ... me!
Re: United Earth [message #228554 ] Mo, 13 März 2006 10:27
onelia  
"John Savard" <jsavard [at] excxn.aNOSPAMb.cdn.invalid> wrote in message
> Eventually, when all the national governments of the world are sane and
> gentle - that is, when they are all democracies like the U.S.A. or the
> countries of Europe, and none of them are like the People's Republic of
> China which gave us the Tienanmen Square massacre of 1989 - the wishes,
> dreams, and desires of humanity will shine through.

Can i argue this, ha ha can i Mummy?
USA's govt sane and gentle? The body that believes interference IS the best
body and it doesnt matter what the people of another country want, you are
having a democracy like ours and we will make sure of it through force if
necessary.

Wake up from your fantasies and open your eyes!

As for communism, it has many very positive features that the Western
Democracies are missing, like guaranteeing that everyone has enough to
survive, everyone has a job and if you have a talent you are given every
opportunity to explore it regardless of socio-economic background.

The negatives are the same as our "democracies" where people are not created
equal or treated as such. And the idea of the freedom of speech...Do we in
the rest of the world really have it when we are manipulated by the media to
believe certain spins on stories regardless of where the truth lies? Is it
really any different from communist propaganda?


>
> Of course, even then, a One World Government might be considered
> dangerous. If a tyrant somehow obtained control of it, then freedom
> could end for the *entire* human race... forever.

I dont believe this. Freedom is given up willingly. It would only vanish
forever if every person thought being a slave was the best option in which
case who would be the leaders.

Alot of humans have a desire to be the head of their pack whether it be in
the school yard or the workforce. There will always be those whom people
look towards for guidance, those that happily follow and the most dangerous
group, those that WANT to be leaders.

Why are those that want to be leaders dangerous, because they rarely do it
for the benefit of others, they normally do it solely for themselves.
Re: United Earth [message #228555 ] Mo, 13 März 2006 12:10
Fozzi  
"ToolPackinMama" <laura [at] lauragoodwin.org> wrote in message
news:moSdnapSw5VHIY7ZnZ2dnUVZ_s6dnZ2d [at] comcast.com...
> We all breathe the same air. We all gaze at the same sun and moon. There's
> no more than six degrees of genetic separation between one human and any
> other one human. We are all the same species.
>

Agreed on most of this but the genetic variation level you mention is only
true for non-africans, human populations within africa display more genetic
variations per square kilometre than is displayed for the entire rest of
the world, mainly because africa was the source population for the rest of
us and all other humans can be traced back (using maternal RNA) to one
single african woman, and no that does not have anything to do with the
story described in genesis.



> Nationalism is a stupid idea that has never proven its value, and
> therefore it is an idea that should maybe be abandoned. No other species
> recognizes national boundaries, why should we?


I would argue that Nationalism was the right idea for its time, it
encouraged the coalescne of principalities (provincial states and city
states) into countries (nation states) a good thing because nation states
are actually better at taking advantage of economies of scale. However i do
beleive that nationalism has well and truely outlived its usefulness and now
its time to graduate to regionalism and continentalism, i see this as
positive though only if it is used as a stepping stone to globalism.

Actually most primate species recognise territiorial boundaries, and quite a
few will have conflicts that could be described as wars over those
territories, I dont see that as a hinderance however as the whole point of
humanity is supposed to be to rise up above our instinctual behaviour, not
to give in to it.

cheers
fozzi
Re: United Earth [message #228556 ] Mo, 13 März 2006 12:13
starshadow  
It's far from proven that homo sapiens sapiens has the lock on
sentience.

We simply do not know yet.

It is human arrogance we seem to have a lock on.
Re: United Earth [message #228557 ] Mo, 13 März 2006 12:16
Fozzi  
"ToolPackinMama" <laura [at] lauragoodwin.org> wrote in message
news:FtWdnSuDodK4Qo7ZRVn-tw [at] comcast.com...
> neils wrote:
>> "ToolPackinMama" <laura [at] lauragoodwin.org> wrote in message
>> news:moSdnapSw5VHIY7ZnZ2dnUVZ_s6dnZ2d [at] comcast.com...
>>
>>>We all breathe the same air. We all gaze at the same sun and moon.
>>>There's no more than six degrees of genetic separation between one human
>>>and any other one human. We are all the same species.
>>>
>>>Nationalism is a stupid idea that has never proven its value, and
>>>therefore it is an idea that should maybe be abandoned. No other species
>>>recognizes national boundaries, why should we?
>>
>>
>> They may not recognize national boundaries but they will fight to the
>> death to protect "their" space. We really aren't that different.
>
> Actually, most species won't fight to the death to "defend" "their"
> "space". Few species actually fight to the death with their own kind over
> anything. Carnivores kill, but only to eat. Normally, males fight each
> other on and individual basis over mating rights, but not to the death.

you are right for mammals in general, for most mamals territorial conflicts
are more bluster than actual confrontation, however you are incorrect for
many primates, especially the higher primates, chimpanzees for example are
extremely vicious to other chimps that arent native to there territory, to
the point where they will rip the foreign chimp literally limb from limb,
they have even been known to capture the other chimp and torture it to a
slow agonising death over a period of days or even weeks. I find it
interesting that these animals are often portrayed as cute and cudly, yet
Gorilla the only higher primate known not to engage in extreme acts of
violence deliberately, is often portrayed as a blood thirsty monster.

cheers
Fozzi
Re: United Earth [message #228558 ] Mo, 13 März 2006 12:25
Fozzi  
"neils" <oneliah [at] iinet.net.au> wrote in message
news:44153b1a$0$23346$5a62ac22 [at] per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au...
>
>
> I dont believe this. Freedom is given up willingly. It would only vanish
> forever if every person thought being a slave was the best option in which
> case who would be the leaders.
>
> Alot of humans have a desire to be the head of their pack whether it be
> in the school yard or the workforce. There will always be those whom
> people look towards for guidance, those that happily follow and the most
> dangerous group, those that WANT to be leaders.


indeed in the middle ages, when bishops were the highest *accessable*
authoriy in most peoples lives they had a saying :-

' the most qualified candidate for a bishopric is a person who never wants
to be a bishop'

Bishops lived in the lap of luxury in those days, they had wealth, respect,
genuine power over their social inferiors (both clerical and secular) and
genuine influence with their social superiors. So if a person didnt want the
position it was reasonable to assume that they realised that those
privilages also carried enormous responsibilities that they would feel
personally obligated to fullfill.

cheers
fozzi
Re: United Earth [message #228559 ] Mo, 13 März 2006 20:12
Kevin  
"Fozzi" <efor6920 [at] bigpond.net.au> wrote in message
news:5rcRf.5412$dy4.18 [at] news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>
> "ToolPackinMama" <laura [at] lauragoodwin.org> wrote in message
> news:moSdnapSw5VHIY7ZnZ2dnUVZ_s6dnZ2d [at] comcast.com...
>> We all breathe the same air. We all gaze at the same sun and moon.
>> There's no more than six degrees of genetic separation between one human
>> and any other one human. We are all the same species.
>>
>
> Agreed on most of this but the genetic variation level you mention is only
> true for non-africans, human populations within africa display more
> genetic variations per square kilometre than is displayed for the entire
> rest of the world, mainly because africa was the source population for the
> rest of us and all other humans can be traced back (using maternal RNA) to
> one single african woman, and no that does not have anything to do with
> the story described in genesis.
>
>
>
>> Nationalism is a stupid idea that has never proven its value, and
>> therefore it is an idea that should maybe be abandoned. No other species
>> recognizes national boundaries, why should we?
>
>
> I would argue that Nationalism was the right idea for its time, it
> encouraged the coalescne of principalities (provincial states and city
> states) into countries (nation states) a good thing because nation states
> are actually better at taking advantage of economies of scale. However i
> do beleive that nationalism has well and truely outlived its usefulness
> and now its time to graduate to regionalism and continentalism, i see this
> as positive though only if it is used as a stepping stone to globalism.
>
> Actually most primate species recognise territiorial boundaries, and quite
> a few will have conflicts that could be described as wars over those
> territories, I dont see that as a hinderance however as the whole point of
> humanity is supposed to be to rise up above our instinctual behaviour, not
> to give in to it.
>
> cheers
> fozzi

Very nice. Agreed.
Re: United Earth [message #228562 ] Mo, 13 März 2006 22:05
ANIM8Rfsk  
in article 44153b1a$0$23346$5a62ac22 [at] per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au,
neils at oneliah [at] iinet.net.au wrote on 3/13/06 2:27 AM:

>
> "John Savard" <jsavard [at] excxn.aNOSPAMb.cdn.invalid> wrote in message
>> Eventually, when all the national governments of the world are sane and
>> gentle - that is, when they are all democracies like the U.S.A. or the
>> countries of Europe, and none of them are like the People's Republic of
>> China which gave us the Tienanmen Square massacre of 1989 - the wishes,
>> dreams, and desires of humanity will shine through.
>
> Can i argue this, ha ha can i Mummy?
> USA's govt sane and gentle? The body that believes interference IS the best
> body and it doesnt matter what the people of another country want, you are
> having a democracy like ours and we will make sure of it through force if
> necessary.
>
> Wake up from your fantasies and open your eyes!
>
> As for communism, it has many very positive features that the Western
> Democracies are missing, like guaranteeing that everyone has enough to
> survive,

As long as you don't mind standing in line 3 days for toilet paper

everyone has a job and if you have a talent you are given every
> opportunity to explore it regardless of socio-economic background.

You are kidding, right?
>
> The negatives are the same as our "democracies" where people are not created
> equal or treated as such. And the idea of the freedom of speech...Do we in
> the rest of the world really have it when we are manipulated by the media to
> believe certain spins on stories regardless of where the truth lies? Is it
> really any different from communist propaganda?
>
>
>>
>> Of course, even then, a One World Government might be considered
>> dangerous. If a tyrant somehow obtained control of it, then freedom
>> could end for the *entire* human race... forever.
>
> I dont believe this. Freedom is given up willingly. It would only vanish
> forever if every person thought being a slave was the best option in which
> case who would be the leaders.
>
> Alot of humans have a desire to be the head of their pack whether it be in
> the school yard or the workforce. There will always be those whom people
> look towards for guidance, those that happily follow and the most dangerous
> group, those that WANT to be leaders.
>
> Why are those that want to be leaders dangerous, because they rarely do it
> for the benefit of others, they normally do it solely for themselves.
>
>
Re: United Earth [message #236228 ] Mo, 13 März 2006 23:47
Kevin  
"Ben C" <spamspam [at] spam.eggs> wrote in message
news:slrne1a7s7.ij1.spamspam [at] bowser.marioworld...
> ["Followup-To:" header set to alt.startrek.]
> On 2006-03-13, Kevin <webman6 [at] hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> No other species [than "Homo Sapiens Sapiens"] has self-awareness either.
>
> On what do you base that assumption?

If there are other species on the planet that are sentient, they sure are
keeping it quiet.
Re: United Earth [message #236229 ] Mo, 13 März 2006 23:49
Kevin  
"The Merry Piper" <merry_piper_YOUR [at] COATyahoo.com> wrote in message
news:msca12t72ill4fgqmksmif350bh3j55lpu [at] 4ax.com...
> On Sun, 12 Mar 2006 19:56:47 -0800, "Kevin" <webman6 [at] hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>>That's why we are now having this conversation. Nationalism, when not
>>taken
>>to extremes like the Germans did when forming the Third Reich, has
>>benefits.
>
> Such as? Just curious.
>
> --
> The Merry Piper
> [http://tmpiper.livejournal.com]
> If you want to dance, you'll have to pay ... me!

It gives people a sense of belonging. People band together and start to
think about the common good.
Re: United Earth [message #236230 ] Di, 14 März 2006 00:03
Ben C  
On 2006-03-13, Kevin <webman6 [at] hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> "Ben C" <spamspam [at] spam.eggs> wrote in message
> news:slrne1a7s7.ij1.spamspam [at] bowser.marioworld...
>> ["Followup-To:" header set to alt.startrek.]
>> On 2006-03-13, Kevin <webman6 [at] hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> No other species [than "Homo Sapiens Sapiens"] has self-awareness either.
>>
>> On what do you base that assumption?
>
> If there are other species on the planet that are sentient, they sure are
> keeping it quiet.

And I respect them all the more for it.
Re: United Earth [message #236231 ] Di, 14 März 2006 01:07
ToolPackinMama  
Kevin wrote:
> "Ben C" <spamspam [at] spam.eggs> wrote in message
> news:slrne1a7s7.ij1.spamspam [at] bowser.marioworld...
>
>>["Followup-To:" header set to alt.startrek.]
>>On 2006-03-13, Kevin <webman6 [at] hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>No other species [than "Homo Sapiens Sapiens"] has self-awareness either.
>>
>>On what do you base that assumption?

Definitions of self-aware:

adjective: aware of yourself as an individual or of your own being and
actions and thoughts

I have seen no evidence that non-human species are not aware of
themselves, and of their own being!

> If there are other species on the planet that are sentient, they sure are
> keeping it quiet.

<<Definitions of sentient:

adjective: endowed with feeling and unstructured consciousness

Example: "The living knew themselves just sentient puppets on God's
stage- T.E.Lawrence"

adjective: consciously perceiving

Example: "Sentient of the intolerable load">>

Who among us here claims that only humans are "sentient"?

FWIW, Star Trek put forth the proposition that many non-human species
are sentient.
Re: United Earth [message #236232 ] Di, 14 März 2006 01:08
ToolPackinMama  
Kevin wrote:
> "The Merry Piper" <merry_piper_YOUR [at] COATyahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:msca12t72ill4fgqmksmif350bh3j55lpu [at] 4ax.com...
>
>>On Sun, 12 Mar 2006 19:56:47 -0800, "Kevin" <webman6 [at] hotmail.com>
>>wrote:
>>
>>
>>>That's why we are now having this conversation. Nationalism, when not
>>>taken
>>>to extremes like the Germans did when forming the Third Reich, has
>>>benefits.
>>
>>Such as? Just curious.

> It gives people a sense of belonging. People band together and start to
> think about the common good.

That can be accomplished in other ways, FWIW.
Re: United Earth [message #236233 ] Di, 14 März 2006 03:46
CaptainPike  
"ToolPackinMama" <laura [at] lauragoodwin.org> wrote in message
news:moSdnapSw5VHIY7ZnZ2dnUVZ_s6dnZ2d [at] comcast.com...
> We all breathe the same air. We all gaze at the same sun and moon.
> There's no more than six degrees of genetic separation between one human
> and any other one human. We are all the same species.
>
> Nationalism is a stupid idea that has never proven its value, and
> therefore it is an idea that should maybe be abandoned. No other species
> recognizes national boundaries, why should we?

Shit. Tell them that.
Re: United Earth [message #236234 ] Di, 14 März 2006 03:47
CaptainPike  
"neils" <oneliah [at] iinet.net.au> wrote in message
news:4413da8a$0$23294$5a62ac22 [at] per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au...
>
> "ToolPackinMama" <laura [at] lauragoodwin.org> wrote in message
> news:moSdnapSw5VHIY7ZnZ2dnUVZ_s6dnZ2d [at] comcast.com...
> > We all breathe the same air. We all gaze at the same sun and moon.
There's
> > no more than six degrees of genetic separation between one human and any
> > other one human. We are all the same species.
> >
> > Nationalism is a stupid idea that has never proven its value, and
> > therefore it is an idea that should maybe be abandoned. No other species
> > recognizes national boundaries, why should we?
>
> They may not recognize national boundaries but they will fight to the
death
> to protect "their" space. We really aren't that different.
>
>

That is why WE must wipe them out and 'take' their space, before
they do ours.
Re: United Earth [message #236235 ] Di, 14 März 2006 01:53
Kweeg  
"Kevin" <webman6 [at] hot4mail.com> wrote in message
news:b7edndfzaey1WYjZ4p2dnA [at] uci.net...
>
> "Fozzi" <efor6920 [at] bigpond.net.au> wrote in message
> news:5rcRf.5412$dy4.18 [at] news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> >
> > "ToolPackinMama" <laura [at] lauragoodwin.org> wrote in message
> > news:moSdnapSw5VHIY7ZnZ2dnUVZ_s6dnZ2d [at] comcast.com...
> >> We all breathe the same air. We all gaze at the same sun and moon.
> >> There's no more than six degrees of genetic separation between one
human
> >> and any other one human. We are all the same species.
> >>
> >
> > Agreed on most of this but the genetic variation level you mention is
only
> > true for non-africans, human populations within africa display more
> > genetic variations per square kilometre than is displayed for the
entire
> > rest of the world, mainly because africa was the source population for
the
> > rest of us and all other humans can be traced back (using maternal RNA)
to
> > one single african woman, and no that does not have anything to do with
> > the story described in genesis.
> >
> >
> >
> >> Nationalism is a stupid idea that has never proven its value, and
> >> therefore it is an idea that should maybe be abandoned. No other
species
> >> recognizes national boundaries, why should we?
> >
> >
> > I would argue that Nationalism was the right idea for its time, it
> > encouraged the coalescne of principalities (provincial states and city
> > states) into countries (nation states) a good thing because nation
states
> > are actually better at taking advantage of economies of scale. However i
> > do beleive that nationalism has well and truely outlived its usefulness
> > and now its time to graduate to regionalism and continentalism, i see
this
> > as positive though only if it is used as a stepping stone to globalism.
> >
> > Actually most primate species recognise territiorial boundaries, and
quite
> > a few will have conflicts that could be described as wars over those
> > territories, I dont see that as a hinderance however as the whole point
of
> > humanity is supposed to be to rise up above our instinctual behaviour,
not
> > to give in to it.
> >
> > cheers
> > fozzi
>
> Very nice. Agreed.

Indeed, good bit of summing up.

--

Qapla'
Kweeg
Ten of Canadian Clubs in the Eeeevil Trek Cabal
http://members.shaw.ca/iksbloodoath
"Half a gallon a'scotch!" Scotty (Spectre of the Gun)
1,079,252,848.8 km/h, not just a good idea, it's the law.
"So say we all!"
Re: United Earth [message #236236 ] Di, 14 März 2006 01:55
ToolPackinMama  
We are a passionate species. As Alex Comfort PhD said: "Only aggressive
organisms exhibit bonding behavior"

In order to feel love, we have to allow for feelings like hate. That's
the bargain you make when you are a passionate species.
Re: United Earth [message #236237 ] Di, 14 März 2006 08:57
onelia  
"ANIM8Rfsk" <ANIM8Rfsk [at] cox.net> wrote in message
news:C03B3598.71ACE%ANIM8Rfsk [at] cox.net...
> in article 44153b1a$0$23346$5a62ac22 [at] per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au,
> neils at oneliah [at] iinet.net.au wrote on 3/13/06 2:27 AM:
>
>>
>> "John Savard" <jsavard [at] excxn.aNOSPAMb.cdn.invalid> wrote in message
>>> Eventually, when all the national governments of the world are sane and
>>> gentle - that is, when they are all democracies like the U.S.A. or the
>>> countries of Europe, and none of them are like the People's Republic of
>>> China which gave us the Tienanmen Square massacre of 1989 - the wishes,
>>> dreams, and desires of humanity will shine through.
>>
>> Can i argue this, ha ha can i Mummy?
>> USA's govt sane and gentle? The body that believes interference IS the
>> best
>> body and it doesnt matter what the people of another country want, you
>> are
>> having a democracy like ours and we will make sure of it through force if
>> necessary.
>>
>> Wake up from your fantasies and open your eyes!
>>
>> As for communism, it has many very positive features that the Western
>> Democracies are missing, like guaranteeing that everyone has enough to
>> survive,
>
> As long as you don't mind standing in line 3 days for toilet paper
>
> everyone has a job and if you have a talent you are given every
>> opportunity to explore it regardless of socio-economic background.
>
> You are kidding, right?

Havent you heard the saying "Everyone is equal just that some are more equal
than others?"

So you think everyone in the US is given an equal opportunity to a job that
will provide the minimum they need to survive (1 job not 3 jobs to equal
the minimum)?

That an extremely intelligent kid who happens to be from an african american
domenated school and area has the same educational opportunities regardless
of parental income that an average intelligence middle american kid does?
Re: United Earth [message #236238 ] Di, 14 März 2006 14:59
TaKYoNtheKoRRuPT  
ToolPackinMama wrote:
> neils wrote:
>> "ToolPackinMama" <laura [at] lauragoodwin.org> wrote in message
>> news:moSdnapSw5VHIY7ZnZ2dnUVZ_s6dnZ2d [at] comcast.com...
>>
>>> We all breathe the same air. We all gaze at the same sun and moon.
>>> There's no more than six degrees of genetic separation between one
>>> human and any other one human. We are all the same species.
>>>
>>> Nationalism is a stupid idea that has never proven its value, and
>>> therefore it is an idea that should maybe be abandoned. No other
>>> species recognizes national boundaries, why should we?
>>
>>
>> They may not recognize national boundaries but they will fight to
>> the death to protect "their" space. We really aren't that different.
>
> Actually, most species won't fight to the death to "defend" "their"
> "space". Few species actually fight to the death with their own kind
> over anything. Carnivores kill, but only to eat. Normally, males
> fight each other on and individual basis over mating rights, but not
> to the death.

So what? We aint animals, we hae a much more highly developed brain, we can
reason and we have sentience, no other animal has this, atleast not o the
degree we do. We are stuck in a fight between our violent instincts and our
ability to think.

--
TaKYoNtheKoRRuPT
http://www.takyon.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/
"Talent does what it can; Genius does what it must."
Re: United Earth [message #236239 ] Di, 14 März 2006 15:00
TaKYoNtheKoRRuPT  
John Savard wrote:
> On Sun, 12 Mar 2006 03:43:35 -0500, ToolPackinMama
> <laura [at] lauragoodwin.org> wrote, in part:
>
>> Actually, most species won't fight to the death to "defend" "their"
>> "space". Few species actually fight to the death with their own kind
>> over anything. Carnivores kill, but only to eat. Normally, males
>> fight each other on and individual basis over mating rights, but not
>> to the death.
>
> Eventually, a male bird that loses fights over territory finds itself
> driven to a territory no other bird wants. If the bird population has
> reached equilibrium with the environment, that left-over territory
> will not be suitable to its survival, and it will perish through
> starvation.
>
> Still, you are correct that very few animal species fight to the
> death, at least not to establish dominance order within a pack or
> tribe.
>
> Chimpanzees or monkeys belonging to different tribes, however, *will*
> fight to the death.
>
> A troop of colobus monkeys may very well attack another troop, killing
> all its males - and the babies as well, so that the females will stop
> lactating and start menstruating, thus equipping themselves to get
> busy bearing *their* children.
>
> War, in all its ugliness, is not strictly a human invention.
>
> That, of course, does not make it a good thing. But when the other
> fellow is Stalin or Hitler, it is not silly to say that giving up war
> is a good idea as long as the other fellow does it first.
>
> If we have three choices...
>
> - die;
>
> - let the Taliban or the Wahhabis run our country; or
>
> - fight back
>
> I'm taking number 3.
>
> I'm not going to cut any slack for beings who behave like Klingons
> (TOS-era) or Romulans just because they belong to the same species as
> I do. Whether your skin is pink, or brown - or blue; whether your
> blood is red or green; what counts is if you permit others to live in
> peace and freedom, or if you seek to extend tyranny by war.
>
> John Savard
> http://www.quadibloc.com/index.html
> _________________________________________
> Usenet Zone Free Binaries Usenet Server
> More than 140,000 groups
> Unlimited download
> http://www.usenetzone.com to open account

Count me in on option 3 aswell mate.

--
TaKYoNtheKoRRuPT
http://www.takyon.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/
"Talent does what it can; Genius does what it must."
Re: United Earth [message #236242 ] Mi, 15 März 2006 01:22
CrimsnKid6  
Kevin on nationalism:

<<It gives people a sense of belonging. People band together and start
to think about the common good.>>

That sounds good in theory, but in modern-day America it's certainly
*lacking* in practice.

The people who are continuously bragging about their "patriotism"
are almost always the ones who are trying to manipulate the people and
government (often successfully) for extreme monetary gain--their vision
of America's "common good" somehow always benefits themselves in the
bank account.

Nationalism (or "patriotism," which has a more positive connotation)
can be a great uniting force for people who are having to deal with
threats to their national existence/independence from more powerful
nations, one can see that in various popular resistance movements
throughout history and even today.
However, in the U.S. today you'd better grab your wallet when some
*superpatriot* starts waving the flag...
L.L.A.P.,
--C.K.
Re: United Earth [message #236243 ] Mi, 15 März 2006 08:08
ANIM8Rfsk  
in article 4416775e$0$23304$5a62ac22 [at] per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au,
neils at oneliah [at] iinet.net.au wrote on 3/14/06 12:57 AM:

>
> "ANIM8Rfsk" <ANIM8Rfsk [at] cox.net> wrote in message
> news:C03B3598.71ACE%ANIM8Rfsk [at] cox.net...
>> in article 44153b1a$0$23346$5a62ac22 [at] per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au,
>> neils at oneliah [at] iinet.net.au wrote on 3/13/06 2:27 AM:
>>
>>>
>>> "John Savard" <jsavard [at] excxn.aNOSPAMb.cdn.invalid> wrote in message
>>>> Eventually, when all the national governments of the world are sane and
>>>> gentle - that is, when they are all democracies like the U.S.A. or the
>>>> countries of Europe, and none of them are like the People's Republic of
>>>> China which gave us the Tienanmen Square massacre of 1989 - the wishes,
>>>> dreams, and desires of humanity will shine through.
>>>
>>> Can i argue this, ha ha can i Mummy?
>>> USA's govt sane and gentle? The body that believes interference IS the
>>> best
>>> body and it doesnt matter what the people of another country want, you
>>> are
>>> having a democracy like ours and we will make sure of it through force if
>>> necessary.
>>>
>>> Wake up from your fantasies and open your eyes!
>>>
>>> As for communism, it has many very positive features that the Western
>>> Democracies are missing, like guaranteeing that everyone has enough to
>>> survive,
>>
>> As long as you don't mind standing in line 3 days for toilet paper
>>
>> everyone has a job and if you have a talent you are given every
>>> opportunity to explore it regardless of socio-economic background.
>>
>> You are kidding, right?
>
> Havent you heard the saying "Everyone is equal just that some are more equal
> than others?"
>
> So you think everyone in the US is given an equal opportunity to a job that
> will provide the minimum they need to survive (1 job not 3 jobs to equal
> the minimum)?
>
> That an extremely intelligent kid who happens to be from an african american
> domenated school and area has the same educational opportunities regardless
> of parental income that an average intelligence middle american kid does?
>
>
Nice that I didn't say anything like you seem to be claiming I did. I asked
if you were kidding about your ludicrous claims about communism.
Re: United Earth [message #236244 ] Mi, 15 März 2006 10:21
onelia  
"ANIM8Rfsk" <ANIM8Rfsk [at] cox.net> wrote in message
news:C03D0B76.7200C%ANIM8Rfsk [at] cox.net...
> in article 4416775e$0$23304$5a62ac22 [at] per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au,
> neils at oneliah [at] iinet.net.au wrote on 3/14/06 12:57 AM:
>
>>
>> "ANIM8Rfsk" <ANIM8Rfsk [at] cox.net> wrote in message
>> news:C03B3598.71ACE%ANIM8Rfsk [at] cox.net...
>>> in article 44153b1a$0$23346$5a62ac22 [at] per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au,
>>> neils at oneliah [at] iinet.net.au wrote on 3/13/06 2:27 AM:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> "John Savard" <jsavard [at] excxn.aNOSPAMb.cdn.invalid> wrote in message
>>>>> Eventually, when all the national governments of the world are sane
>>>>> and
>>>>> gentle - that is, when they are all democracies like the U.S.A. or the
>>>>> countries of Europe, and none of them are like the People's Republic
>>>>> of
>>>>> China which gave us the Tienanmen Square massacre of 1989 - the
>>>>> wishes,
>>>>> dreams, and desires of humanity will shine through.
>>>>
>>>> Can i argue this, ha ha can i Mummy?
>>>> USA's govt sane and gentle? The body that believes interference IS the
>>>> best
>>>> body and it doesnt matter what the people of another country want, you
>>>> are
>>>> having a democracy like ours and we will make sure of it through force
>>>> if
>>>> necessary.
>>>>
>>>> Wake up from your fantasies and open your eyes!
>>>>
>>>> As for communism, it has many very positive features that the Western
>>>> Democracies are missing, like guaranteeing that everyone has enough to
>>>> survive,
>>>
>>> As long as you don't mind standing in line 3 days for toilet paper
>>>
>>> everyone has a job and if you have a talent you are given every
>>>> opportunity to explore it regardless of socio-economic background.
>>>
>>> You are kidding, right?
>>
>> Havent you heard the saying "Everyone is equal just that some are more
>> equal
>> than others?"
>>
>> So you think everyone in the US is given an equal opportunity to a job
>> that
>> will provide the minimum they need to survive (1 job not 3 jobs to equal
>> the minimum)?
>>
>> That an extremely intelligent kid who happens to be from an african
>> american
>> domenated school and area has the same educational opportunities
>> regardless
>> of parental income that an average intelligence middle american kid does?
>>
>>
> Nice that I didn't say anything like you seem to be claiming I did. I
> asked
> if you were kidding about your ludicrous claims about communism.
>

So what do you think I was saying?

I highlighted the benefit of the communist system vs the US when it comes to
the gifted. Every child in China is tested for accedemic exellence (even in
Mongolia!) and the gifted ARE given positions in different schools often in
different towns and provinces. Why do parents allow this? Because there is
no old age pension, your survival in old age depends on how well your
children do.

According to my father who is lecturing over there, the universities are
truelly free so everyone can afford to go, however for your education you
agree to work for 5 years in a government position. How many American kids
(and their families) wouldnt love that sort of arrangement? Especially with
the five years of experience in your field guarnteed!

And everyone does have a job. Its either work or starve as begging is
illegal.

Im not and never did say that Communism is better just that there are some
benefits to it. Besides China isnt communist.

You are probably now thinking how dumb I am but do some thorough research
into what communism is and what capitalism is and you will find it is far
closer to capitalist than communist
Re: United Earth [message #236245 ] Mi, 15 März 2006 10:24
onelia  
"neils" <oneliah [at] iinet.net.au> wrote in message
news:44153b1a$0$23346$5a62ac22 [at] per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au...
>
> "John Savard" <jsavard [at] excxn.aNOSPAMb.cdn.invalid> wrote in message
>> Eventually, when all the national governments of the world are sane and
>> gentle - that is, when they are all democracies like the U.S.A. or the
>> countries of Europe, and none of them are like the People's Republic of
>> China which gave us the Tienanmen Square massacre of 1989 - the wishes,
>> dreams, and desires of humanity will shine through.
>
> Can i argue this, ha ha can i Mummy?
> USA's govt sane and gentle? The body that believes interference IS the
> best body and it doesnt matter what the people of another country want,
> you are having a democracy like ours and we will make sure of it through
> force if necessary.
>
> Wake up from your fantasies and open your eyes!
>
> As for communism, it has many very positive features that the Western
> Democracies are missing, like guaranteeing that everyone has enough to
> survive, everyone has a job and if you have a talent you are given every
> opportunity to explore it regardless of socio-economic background.
>
> The negatives are the same as our "democracies" where people are not
> created equal or treated as such. And the idea of the freedom of
> speech...Do we in the rest of the world really have it when we are
> manipulated by the media to believe certain spins on stories regardless of
> where the truth lies? Is it really any different from communist
> propaganda?
>
>
>>
>> Of course, even then, a One World Government might be considered
>> dangerous. If a tyrant somehow obtained control of it, then freedom
>> could end for the *entire* human race... forever.
>
> I dont believe this. Freedom is given up willingly. It would only vanish
> forever if every person thought being a slave was the best option in which
> case who would be the leaders.
>
> Alot of humans have a desire to be the head of their pack whether it be
> in the school yard or the workforce. There will always be those whom
> people look towards for guidance, those that happily follow and the most
> dangerous group, those that WANT to be leaders.
>
> Why are those that want to be leaders dangerous, because they rarely do it
> for the benefit of others, they normally do it solely for themselves.

I like how despite many people reading this thread and two people directly
responding to my posting, NO_ONE has argued that the American government IS
sane, gentle or even a good democracy. Very enlightening.
Re: United Earth [message #242150 ] Do, 16 März 2006 23:43
Numan  
"TaKYoN" <takyon [at] NOCRAPblueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:I%zRf.171821$YJ4.49444 [at] fe2.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
> John Savard wrote:
>> On Sun, 12 Mar 2006 03:43:35 -0500, ToolPackinMama
>> <laura [at] lauragoodwin.org> wrote, in part:
>>
>>> Actually, most species won't fight to the death to "defend" "their"
>>> "space". Few species actually fight to the death with their own kind
>>> over anything. Carnivores kill, but only to eat. Normally, males
>>> fight each other on and individual basis over mating rights, but not
>>> to the death.
>>
>> Eventually, a male bird that loses fights over territory finds itself
>> driven to a territory no other bird wants. If the bird population has
>> reached equilibrium with the environment, that left-over territory
>> will not be suitable to its survival, and it will perish through
>> starvation.
>>
>> Still, you are correct that very few animal species fight to the
>> death, at least not to establish dominance order within a pack or
>> tribe.
>>
>> Chimpanzees or monkeys belonging to different tribes, however, *will*
>> fight to the death.
>>
>> A troop of colobus monkeys may very well attack another troop, killing
>> all its males - and the babies as well, so that the females will stop
>> lactating and start menstruating, thus equipping themselves to get
>> busy bearing *their* children.
>>
>> War, in all its ugliness, is not strictly a human invention.
>>
>> That, of course, does not make it a good thing. But when the other
>> fellow is Stalin or Hitler, it is not silly to say that giving up war
>> is a good idea as long as the other fellow does it first.
>>
>> If we have three choices...
>>
>> - die;
>>
>> - let the Taliban or the Wahhabis run our country; or
>>
>> - fight back
>>
>> I'm taking number 3.
>>
>> I'm not going to cut any slack for beings who behave like Klingons
>> (TOS-era) or Romulans just because they belong to the same species as
>> I do. Whether your skin is pink, or brown - or blue; whether your
>> blood is red or green; what counts is if you permit others to live in
>> peace and freedom, or if you seek to extend tyranny by war.
>>
>> John Savard
>> http://www.quadibloc.com/index.html
>> _________________________________________
>> Usenet Zone Free Binaries Usenet Server
>> More than 140,000 groups
>> Unlimited download
>> http://www.usenetzone.com to open account
>
> Count me in on option 3 aswell mate.

Me three!
Re: United Earth [message #242151 ] Fr, 17 März 2006 03:01
CrimsnKid6  
Defending against foreign invaders and occupiers:

> If we have three choices...


> - die;


> - let the [U.S. occupation forces] run our country; or


> - fight back


> I'm taking number 3.

Many of your fellow "Iraqis" are making that same hard decision to
resist foreign occupation, even when it sometimes involves dying for
their country's independence.

I always respect resistance forces fighting foreign
occupiers--reminds me quite a bit of 1776...
L.L.A.P.,
--C.K.
Re: United Earth [message #242153 ] Fr, 17 März 2006 04:24
ToolPackinMama  
neils wrote:

> I like how despite many people reading this thread and two people directly
> responding to my posting, NO_ONE has argued that the American government IS
> sane, gentle or even a good democracy.

FWIW, I don't think it is, at the moment.
Re: United Earth [message #242154 ] Fr, 17 März 2006 04:30
ToolPackinMama  
TaKYoN wrote:
> So what? We aint animals, we hae a much more highly developed brain, we can
> reason and we have sentience, no other animal has this

I don't necessarily agree that no other creature is sentient, as I
indicated before.

> We are stuck in a fight between our violent instincts and our
> ability to think.

Reason is no hedge against violence, as we saw in Ultimate Computer, and
other episodes. Very reasonable people can be very coldly violent, as
we saw in A Taste Of Armageddon, and other eps.

Star Trek frequently made the point that our human instincts are
compassionate and altruistic, as-or-more often as violent.

Spock said something really cool in "Ultimate Computer":

http://allyourtrekarebelongto.us/machineman.jpg

Dr. Daystrom (proudly): "Rather impressive display for a machine,
wouldn't you say, Captain?"

Kirk (tightly, to Spock): "Evaluation of M-5 performance. It'll be
necessary for the log."

Spock (evenly): "The ship reacted more rapidly than human control could
have maneuvered her. Tactics, deployment of weapons... all indicate an
immense sophistication in computer control."

Kirk (trying to seem rational): "Machine over man, Spock? It was
impressive. It might even be practical."

Spock (sincerely, and with feeling): "Practical, Captain? Perhaps. But
not desirable. Computers make excellent and efficient servants, but I
have no wish to serve under them.

(Standing very close to Kirk, gazing deeply into his eyes)

"Captain...the starship also runs on loyalty...to one man - and nothing
can replace it, or him."

It's clear as he says this That he's totally sincere, and that he's
saying it primarily to reassure Jim, who's feeling a bit vulnerable at
the moment.

Spock loves computers, and he believes in controlling his emotions, but
there is a definite limit to how devoid of feeling he thinks life should be.
Re: United Earth [message #242155 ] Fr, 17 März 2006 04:43
ToolPackinMama  
ToolPackinMama wrote:

> Star Trek frequently made the point that our human instincts are
> compassionate and altruistic, as-or-more often as violent.

Afterthought:

Heck, In Spectre Of The Gun, and Arena, for example, the fact that Kirk
could control his violent impulses and show mercy to an opponent was
basically what saved the day, and that humans are compassionate and that
*that* was an advanced and positive aspect of human nature was the
moral/point of the story.
Re: United Earth [message #242156 ] Fr, 17 März 2006 04:48
ToolPackinMama  
One big reason I love Captain Kirk is that he tends to be compassionate
and forgiving with his foes.
Vorheriges Thema:World Science Fiction Convention to Celebrate Star Trek's 40th Anniversary
Nächstes Thema:Score of Klingon Opera in DS9 5.03?
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