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Fantasy » alt.fan.harry-potter » Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers ***
Re: Secret Keeper [message #303094 ] Sa, 22 Juli 2006 20:44
Aenneken  
ag30476 [at] gmail.com schrub in
news:1153583217.222979.253870 [at] b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com:

>
> Aenneken wrote:
>> In OotP Sirius tells Harry: "My father put every security
>> measure known to wizardkind on it when he lived here.
>> It's unplottable,so Muggles could never come and call..."
>
> "...except the Fidelius Charm of course. That was Dumbledore's idea."
>
> So "every security measure" does not include an FC.
>
> Look, here Sirius is clearly talking in figuratively. It is used by JKR
> to emphasize that the house is safe. It is not meant to show how magic
> works.

So when Sirius says."It's unplottable,so Muggles could never come and
call..." he is clearly talking figuratively?
Well,I agree to disagree here.

>> I am going with Tom here.It disappeared because of what Sirius'
>> father did,DD used that when added the FC spell to the
>> house.
>
> Do you understand that you are arguing here for how an imaginary magic
> system works. That is you ar arguing taht 12 Grimmauld did not appear
> to Harry because of X spell but because of Y spell in conjunction with
> X spell.

Since in PoA it is said "As long as the Secret-Keeper refused to speak, You-
Know-Who could search the village where Lily and James were staying for years
and never find them, not even if he had his nose pressed against their
sitting room window!" I assumed that the house where the Potters were hiding
was visible. So the secret could not have been the village where they were
hiding or the exact place but that the Potters were hiding at that place.
The same goes for 12GP.The secret is not the exact location but that the OotP
has its headquaters there.

And yes,I do think GP12 is invisible to Harry at first because it was made
unplottable and he needed to know it existed before he could see it.

But in the End I am just guessing and I don't really care if I am right or
wrong,it's fun and that's it.



<snip>

Aenneken
Re: Secret Keeper [message #303096 ] Sa, 22 Juli 2006 22:20
maxx2112  
<ag30476 [at] gmail.com> done said:


>> I agree - otherwise mischief makers could make secrets of all sorts of
>> things, eg the location of MoM or Gringotts, and bingo - no-one would be
>> able to get there! Instant blackmail - we've just FCed your workplace; give
>> us some money to reverse it or your business is history :) Or even FCing a
>> person: you and a mate agree to FC someone like the MoM himself, or Dd, and
>> suddenly no-one could see them. I don't think so.
>
> This is thinking *too* much about *magic* and not allowing your
> *suspension of disbelief* to work for the *world assumptions* of the
> story. Sorry for all the emphasis but really it is a story. Arguing how
> the FC works is like arguing how Star Trek warp drives work.


They work by warping local space so the physical distance traveled by the
warp-driven craft is significantly less than that of the actual, linear
distance. This is not the same as hyper-drive, which drops the craft in and
out of "normal" three dimensional space.

Now the transporters . . . there's an argument!

Heisenberg compensators? I bet!



- Max -
=======
Any sufficiently advanced technology
is indistinguishable from magic. - AC Clarke
Re: Secret Keeper [message #303097 ] Sa, 22 Juli 2006 22:27
ag30476  
Aenneken wrote:
> > Aenneken wrote:
> >> In OotP Sirius tells Harry: "My father put every security
> >> measure known to wizardkind on it when he lived here.
> >> It's unplottable,so Muggles could never come and call..."
> >
> > "...except the Fidelius Charm of course. That was Dumbledore's idea."
> >
> > So "every security measure" does not include an FC.
> >
> > Look, here Sirius is clearly talking in figuratively. It is used by JKR
> > to emphasize that the house is safe. It is not meant to show how magic
> > works.
>
> So when Sirius says."It's unplottable,so Muggles could never come and
> call..." he is clearly talking figuratively?
> Well,I agree to disagree here.

Except if you do the Sirius says "It's unplottable,so Muggles could
never come and call"

Not it's unplottable, so people who don't know about the place
including the wizard Harry could never come calling.

So here Sirus must be speaking figuratively for YOU to let YOU mean
that unplottable makes it disappear for Harry,.

And as I said before,. when Sirius says "every security measure known"
he means "every security measure known except the FC."

So again, sirius must be speaking figuratvely for YOU to let you mean
that Sirius does indeed mea the house has many enchantments which is
what you said.

You don't acknowledge that you are taking Sirius figuratively.

And then you make firther assumptions in which unspecified protection
spells, unplottability - whatever that is - and the FC work together -
something which wasn't intended by Sirius's father when he cast the
original spells.

And then you don't acknowledge that either,

That is what you mean by 'agree to disagree'.

> >> I am going with Tom here.It disappeared because of what Sirius'
> >> father did,DD used that when added the FC spell to the
> >> house.
> >
> > Do you understand that you are arguing here for how an imaginary magic
> > system works. That is you ar arguing taht 12 Grimmauld did not appear
> > to Harry because of X spell but because of Y spell in conjunction with
> > X spell.
>
> Since in PoA it is said "As long as the Secret-Keeper refused to speak, You-
> Know-Who could search the village where Lily and James were staying for years
> and never find them, not even if he had his nose pressed against their
> sitting room window!"

Again, another figure of speech.If you think about it, it makes little
sense if it worked this way.

Suppose the FC worked this way, that you could somehow find the house
at 12 Grimmauld or GH and press your nose to the window. And that you
can't see the people hiding inside.

If I can press my eye to the window, I can just be outside looking at
the house. Say Hagrid leaves the house at 12 Grimmauld while I'm
looking at it. Does he *poof* appear. No, that would make me suspicious
of the secret. So I guess he walks away a few feet and *poof * he
appears. How many feet? Can I figure out that he's *poofing* in and out
between 8 and 14 Grimmauld?

Now I go press my nose against the window. No one is in the house.
Presumably I cannot se thre possessions either. Can I see the old
stuff? The old stuff has been moved around or removed but I can see no
one. I see what I recognize is an old Black family chair. Somthing
invisible moves it. Can I see the chair move. Or *poof* does the chair
vanish along with my abitlity to recognize that the chair has vanished.

Suppose I say think for some reason that this must be the OotP HQ? As a
good DE, I go rushing in to cast curses on everyone. yet onece inside,
I cannot see the OotP'ers but they can see me. Obviously, I would never
want to go inside the HQ if this was the case. Obviously then,
Bellatrix would not ask Snape about the HQ becuase the not-so-stupid
DE's would never got the FC protected house and make themselevs so
vulnerable.

Does this seem like too much analysis of the way it works? It is. But
you started it - that is you started along the path of how magic works
in the HP world.

It is much simpler to assume that the FC very plainly and simply
prevents anyone not in on the secret from finding the house unless the
FC tells them. That way, Narcissa can't accidentally discover the
house. That way, if Narcissa presses her nose against the window we
don't have to suppoe an invisibility effect. That way DE's can talk
about wanting to find the house - but they can't. Similarly with that
one assumption, people can talk about the Potters hiding in the village
of GH without ever being able to find the house.

How exactly does the FC "prevents anyone not in on the secret from
finding the house unless the FC tells them"? Who cares? It's magic.

The important point are the PLOT points
- the Potters were safe until THE weakness of the FC betrayed them
- the OotP HQ is a safe haven the DE's will never find

> I assumed that the house where the Potters were hiding
> was visible.

At least you admit this aassumption

> So the secret could not have been the village where they were
> hiding or the exact place but that the Potters were hiding at that place.

But people were talking about that fact after the night at Godric's
Hollow, so McGonogall informs us. So you must further assume/deduce
that the FC was broken in some way after the curse backfired.

> The same goes for 12GP.The secret is not the exact location but that the OotP
> has its headquaters there.

Sigh...then as I have said repeatedly...the FC or some other spell must
protect the house from Narcissa going there and saying "Hey something
funny here."

> And yes,I do think GP12 is invisible to Harry at first because it was made
> unplottable and he needed to know it existed before he could see it.

Sigh...but unplottability (whatever that is) is literally said to be a
protection against muggles. You are also saying it makes the house
invisible to a non-muggle who did not know the FC and had never been
there.

> But in the End I am just guessing and I don't really care if I am right or
> wrong,it's fun and that's it.

Well here I can't disagree. If it's fun for you coming up with ways
that the magic in HP world works then by all means.

I prefer trying to figure out the backstory - that is the game I enjoy.

To each hos own. It's a matter of taste.
Re: Secret Keeper [message #303098 ] Sa, 22 Juli 2006 22:38
ag30476  
Max C. Webster III wrote:
> They work by warping local space so the physical distance traveled by the
> warp-driven craft is significantly less than that of the actual, linear
> distance.

Yes it was all quite clear after reading
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warp_drive_%28Star_Trek%29

and
http://www.calormen.com/Star_Trek/FAQs/warp-faq.htm

All that reading proved one thing to me...I'm still not the world's
greatest geek :(
Re: Secret Keeper [message #303099 ] Sa, 22 Juli 2006 22:40
DaveD  
<ag30476 [at] gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1153585314.849310.266260 [at] m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com...
>
> DaveD wrote:

[big snip]

> Sorry for shouting but
>
> MAGIC IN THE HP WORLD IS NOT CONSISTENT BECAUSE IT IS THE MAGICAL
> TECHNOLOGY OF AN IMAGINARY WORLD.


Erm, might I suggest you may be taking this a bit too seriously?

Of course, the more consistent JKR's "rules" of magic are, the more
enjoyable are the books - random inconsistent magic would be boring and
annoying. Of course, there may be a few mistakes or inconsistencies here and
there, but it's fun playing with what we've been told so far to try and
explain situations or extrapolate from them and possibly work out a few
clues for book 7. I'm sorry if you don't enjoy that but I don't think that's
grounds for shouting etc.

Perhaps we should draw this thread to a close before a flamewar starts :)

DaveD
Re: Secret Keeper [message #303101 ] Sa, 22 Juli 2006 23:04
ag30476  
DaveD wrote:
> Erm, might I suggest you may be taking this a bit too seriously?

Sorry for all the shouting (I did apolgize ahead of time too) but the
discussion has gone from a discussion of plot - and I do thank everyone
for trying to debunk my reconstruction - to a nitpicking over magic.

> Of course, the more consistent JKR's "rules" of magic are, the more
> enjoyable are the books - random inconsistent magic would be boring and
> annoying. Of course, there may be a few mistakes or inconsistencies here and
> there, but it's fun playing with what we've been told so far to try and
> explain situations or extrapolate from them and possibly work out a few
> clues for book 7. I'm sorry if you don't enjoy that but I don't think that's
> grounds for shouting etc.

I realize FC charm is widely a debated topic. For me, magical mechanics
after a certain point it becomes pointless. Not even JKR has worked all
the points of magic out. Of course, if such argument is fun for you,
please continue.

JKR has worked out the storyline ahead of time - figuring that out is
more fun for me. But hey to each his one

> Perhaps we should draw this thread to a close before a flamewar
starts :)

Well I did sort of want some flames - and I did get some. Troel's,
gjw's, Tamar's SkyRiders and others were good post and fun too - at
least for me.

But this how FC works crap...I'll let whoever wants have the last
crap...er words.
Re: Secret Keeper [message #303103 ] Sa, 22 Juli 2006 23:59
Sky Rider  
On Sat, 22 Jul 2006 11:56:54 GMT, Thom Madura
<Thom-Madura [at] Worldnet.att.net> looked at Ron with an evil Grint in his
eye and said :
>Toon wrote:
>> On 21 Jul 2006 08:45:40 -0700, ag30476 [at] gmail.com wrote:
>>>Richard Eney wrote:
>>>>In article <1152868794.521207.206680 [at] s13g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
>>>> <ag30476 [at] gmail.com> wrote:

<snip>

>SHe said that the spell remains in force as it was as of the death of
>the secret keeper - ie - the only people who know the secret are those
>the secret keeper told in life - which now cannot be added to.

So... since DD was secret keeper for the OoP headquarters it's now
wide open to attack??
--

Where real Aussies go to tell it like it is!
http://www.australianopinion.com
Re: Secret Keeper [message #303109 ] So, 23 Juli 2006 02:11
Thomas Madura  
ag30476 [at] gmail.com wrote:
> Aenneken wrote:
>
>>In OotP Sirius tells Harry: "My father put every security
>>measure known to wizardkind on it when he lived here.
>>It's unplottable,so Muggles could never come and call..."
>
>
> "...except the Fidelius Charm of course. That was Dumbledore's idea."
>
> So "every security measure" does not include an FC.
>
> Look, here Sirius is clearly talking in figuratively. It is used by JKR
> to emphasize that the house is safe. It is not meant to show how magic
> works.
>
>
>>I am going with Tom here.It disappeared because of what Sirius'
>>father did,DD used that when added the FC spell to the
>>house.
>
>
> Do you understand that you are arguing here for how an imaginary magic
> system works. That is you ar arguing taht 12 Grimmauld did not appear
> to Harry because of X spell but because of Y spell in conjunction with
> X spell.
>
> You are arguing the X spell has properties A, B, C from a description
> of of the spell in a few English sentences, a description which at the
> same time is so vague and comprehensive that you cannot determine what
> X applies to and what it does not apply to.


No - the FC charm description is quite specific. It is a spell that
binds a "secret" to one single person. Afterwards - no one else may
reveal that secret except the "secret keeper".

If you look at the name of the spell itself - Fidelity is implied. So -
the spell involves people - not objects.

No spell is needed to give a house Fidelity - it can neither KNOW a
secret - keep a secret - or tell a secret. THerefore - it is always
faithful. In fact - one could not use the FC spell on a house. It is not
a person - nor could it ever tell anyone the secret - even if they were
supposed to learn it.
Re: Secret Keeper [message #303110 ] So, 23 Juli 2006 02:15
Thomas Madura  
ag30476 [at] gmail.com wrote:

> DaveD wrote:
>
>>>That 12 Grimmaud place was not visible is not consistent with the FC
>>>spell - and it must have been the result of other enchantments.
>>
>>I agree - otherwise mischief makers could make secrets of all sorts of
>>things, eg the location of MoM or Gringotts, and bingo - no-one would be
>>able to get there! Instant blackmail - we've just FCed your workplace; give
>>us some money to reverse it or your business is history :) Or even FCing a
>>person: you and a mate agree to FC someone like the MoM himself, or Dd, and
>>suddenly no-one could see them. I don't think so.
>
>
> This is thinking *too* much about *magic* and not allowing your
> *suspension of disbelief* to work for the *world assumptions* of the
> story. Sorry for all the emphasis but really it is a story. Arguing how
> the FC works is like arguing how Star Trek warp drives work.
>
> You yourself said that there must be a check on misused of the FC
> inappropriately. Yo point to it's use as blackmail. Someone else
> earlier in the thread pointed to the need to protect against it's
> destructive/anarchistic disuse. Suppose you used the FC to hide the
> fact that 1 + 1 = 2. Wha affect woudl that have? Does everything you
> crate need an anti-FC charm. Or does the FC charm have built-in
> limitations? And how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?
>
>
>>Rather, the secret is that 12GP is the HQ of OoTP, or GH is the hiding place
>>of the Potters. After all, 12GP was unplottable so perhaps that's why it
>>also disappeared if you didn't know about it or where to look (pretty much
>>the same as the Leaky Cauldron on Charing Cross Road is invisible to
>>muggles. I should know - I get my bus home after the gym from CXRd and I've
>>never seen it!
>
>
> But why assume that? This is a story. A magical story. The FC is meant
> to be a way to hide from magical enemies...that is all. It's a way that
> is supersecret - unbreakable - except for 1 major weakeness - you have
> to trust the secret keeper.
>
> And these effect two effect (hides you but not if the secret keeper
> tells) are the important to the story. How exactly it works we are not
> meant to think about.
>
> Harry is handed a piece of paper, 12 Grimmauld appears. The easiest
> assumption is that that is the effect of 12 Grimmauld. With the death
> of DD, we can assume the secret is safe...eventhough Bellatirx asks
> Snape about the location of the OotP HQ...even if Narcissa decides to
> pay a visit to her familie's old house.
>
>
>>>>Yes Narcissa would know *about* her family house. But she could not
>>>>*find* it. See it's magic.
>>
>>And it's been made unplottable.
>
>
> You are the making it un-plot-able.
>
> If you are going to be an expert on magic then you must do a good job.
> According to you, "Unplottability" protects against someone who did'nt
> know the house from seeing the house, ie Harry or a muggle. Because you
> said the house didn't appear to Harry do to the revelation of the FC
> but because of the "unplottability". So knowledge about the house is
> kept from Harry by the FC and it's location is made secret by the
> "unplottabiility". But once Harry knows the FC, he knows about the
> house and synergistically can find it though it is "unplotatble".
> Narcissa knows about the house. So the FC does not work on her. But
> because it is "unplottable" she can't find it now that the FC is in
> place though presumably she could find her family's house before the
> FC. So the "unplottability" protects 12 Grimmauld from Narcissa even
> though she does not fall under the FC spell and knows about the house.
> I think you will find a good argument with out other resident *magic*
> expert..



Unplottability has NOTHING to do with the FC spell. In fact - the spell
has nothing to do with the "secret" itself - which could be anything.
THe FC spell binds the secret to a single person - and from that point
on - only the "secret Keeper" may reveal the secret to others.
Re: Secret Keeper [message #303111 ] So, 23 Juli 2006 02:25
Thomas Madura  
ag30476 [at] gmail.com wrote:

> Thom Madura wrote:
>
>>" The headquarters fo the Order of the Phoenix may be found at number
>>twelve, Grimmauld Place, London."
>>
>>It is not the location of the house - it is the location of the
>>headquarters of the OOP. THerefore - the location of the house is not
>>secret - nor do I believe a FC spell could make it secret anyway.
>
>
> So Narcissa can't find the house if she is looking for the OotP HQ but
> id she decides to visit her family home she thinks "The family home is
> at 12 Grimmauld." And there it is just like she would think. Because if
> she can't see it she knows something is up.
>
> Then she walks in and sees Hagrid. Bamf. House disappears now she
> doesn't know it.
>
> Or maybe she can't see Hagrid at all. It's as if the OotP'ers and their
> stuff are invisible to her. Of course they did clean out the place so
> Narcissa puts two and two together...Bamf. House disappears now she
> doesn't know it.
>
> Is that the way it works? I defer to you on questions of *magic*.
>


WHile the house disappearing might be a way to keep a secret - it has
nothing to do with the FC spell.

For example - Dumbledore - who knows where the MOM is - could make a FC
saying that the OOP now meets at the MOM offices in London - making
himself the secret keeper.

From that point on - the only people who would know that the oop meets
at the MOM are those that Dumbledore tells. However - there are lots of
people who work at the MOM offices in London. THeir offices don't just
up a disappear. THey go to work at the MOM as normal - they just don't
know that the OOP meets there - and cannot find out unless DD tells them.

If we do it YOUR way - I could use the FC charm to make a secret that
YOU exist as a person. Instantly you would disappear and never be seen
again by anyone except me and anyone I chose to tell.
Re: Secret Keeper [message #303112 ] So, 23 Juli 2006 02:34
strom  
Toon wrote:
> On 21 Jul 2006 14:38:10 -0700, strom [at] watson.ibm.com wrote:
>
> >The latter probably happened in Book 6 when
> >Harry divulged openly that 12GP was the headquarters of
> >the OOTP in front of the Dursleys -- Harry spoke
> >the words, but somehow the "information" never
> >made it into the Dursleys' brains -- instant Obliviation.
>
> Except DD announces it.

That wasn't what I remembered, so I went back and checked.
DD announces that Sirius has bequeathed 12GP to Harry.
But it is Harry who reveals that 12GP
is being used as headquarters,
which I thought was the secret.

At the Dursleys:
Dumbledore:
"Our problem ... is that Sirius also left you
number twelve, Grimmauld Place."
Vernon Dursley:
"He's been left a house?" ...
HP:
"You can keep using it as headquarters."

Earlier, at Spinner's End.
Bellatrix Lestrange:
"And, while we are on the subject of the Order,
you still claim you cannot reveal the whereabouts
of their headquarters, don't you?"
Snape:
"I am not the Secret-Keeper; I cannot speak
the name of the place. You understand how
the enchantment works, I think?"

Other things in that chapter seem to imply that
the FC literally doesn't keep you from getting into
12GP, merely from learning that it is headquarters:

Dumbledore:
"... We do not know whether the enchantments
we ourselves have placed upon it, for example,
making it Unplottable, will hold now that
the ownership has passed from Sirius' hands."

So it appeared that the FC did not by itself make
the house unplottable; additional enchantments were
needed. Furthermore, although presumably
the FC keeps anyone who goes there from learning
that the OOTP is headquartered there, it doesn't
seem to protect people from seeing any
valuable clues members of the order have left lying
around, hence DD continues by saying:
"It might be that Bellatrix will arrive on
the doorstep at any moment. Naturally,
we had to move out until such time as we have
clarified the position." So the FC didn't seem to
protect against someone entering the premises
and seeing things the Order didn't want seen.

--
Rob Strom
Re: Secret Keeper [message #303113 ] So, 23 Juli 2006 02:44
Thomas Madura  
ag30476 [at] gmail.com wrote:

> Thom Madura wrote:
>
>>ag30476 [at] gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>>And apparently you can't understand that if the FC works the way you
>>>assume, then you have a plot hole.
>>
>>No plot hole - you have the wrong "secret".
>
>
> Let's see if we can Tivo though this exchange
>
> ag: The plot hole created when Narcissa coms to look at the family
> home.
>
> Thom: If Narcissa comes, she can find the house but not the OotP'ers
> inside.
>
> ag: The why does Bellatirx ask Snape about the location?
>
> Thom: JKR made a mistake.
>
> ag: Exactly
>
>
>>>So the house not appearing to Harry's eyes until DD gives him the paper
>>>is not caused by the FC but some other effect? You are the expert in
>>>*magic*.
>>
>>AS Anneken pointed out - that was from Sirius' fathers spells - not from
>>the FC.
>
>
> Spells that have synergystic effects with the FC and need even more
> asumptions to explain what happens in unforseen circunstances - all
> unecessay for story purposes.
>
>
>>>Virtually everyone does not include Hagrid of course. (
>>
>>No - only Sirius knew that Pettigrew was the secret keeper because it
>>was he who convinced James to do it.
>
>
> Try to follow. You said "Since virtually everyone thought that Sirius
> was the secret keeper" in the context of the night at Godric's Hollow.
>
> If everyone thought the secret keeper was Sirius that night when the
> curse backfired then Hagrid would have suspected Sirius of treachery.
> It is only after that night that Hagrid learns (falsely) that Sirius
> was the sercret keeper. When he does find out, he feels remorse at not
> catching Sirius when he had a chance that night.
>
> So Hagrid did not think (falsely) that Sirius was the secret keeper.
> But you calimed that virtually everyone thought (falsely) that Siris
> was the secret keeper...so virtually everyone does not include Hagrid
> that night.
>
> Thus your 1st supposition for you argument
>
> "Since virtually everyone thought that Sirius was the secret keeper =
> only Sirius knew - then if the Potter house disappeared(as you
> suggest)
> - then Dumbledore would not have been able to find it that night since
> he was not in on the secret - Hagrid would also have not been able to
> find the house - and they would not have been able to find Baby Harry -
>
> unless Pettigrew told them where to find him."
>
> makes no sense.
>
> It was a nitpick. I did not bother to explain how I explain that Hagrid
> got to the hosue because I have done so ad nauseum in this thread.
>


?????

Try to follow

THe ONLY person(other than the potters themselves) - who knew that
Pettigrew was the secret keeper was Sirius - who convinced the potters
to use Pettigrew instead of himself.

Since EVERYONE ELSE - including Dumbledore and Hagrid - thought that the
secret keeper was Sirius - that means that they were not in on the
secret. IF they were in on the secret - they would have known that
Pettigrew was the secret keeper - they would have known that Sirius did
not give up the secret to V - they would have known that Sirius was
attacking Pettigrew because he gave the secret to V = IE - they would
have known WHY Sirius attacked Pettigrew - and I suspect Sirius would
not have landed in Azkhaban based on that.

SO - if DUMBLEDORE and HAGRID and the MOM and did NOT know the secret -
then they did not know that the Potters were hiding at their house.

Since Pettigrew really didn't die - he still was(is) the secret keeper
and no one could find out about that secret unless Pettigrew told them.

Now - if - as you say - the FC spell would have made the Potter House
Disappear and only those who were told the secret could find it - then
Dumbledore and Hagrid

1 - Wouldn't be able to find the Potter House - they didn't know the secret.
2 - THey wouldn't have been able to rescue Harry - since they would not
be able to find the house.
3 - No - Harry - No Harry Potter story to tell. SO the books would not
have been written.

THerefore - your argument HAS to be wrong for the simple reason that we
are arguing about the Harry Potter Stories from the Harry Potter books
that were produced because the Potter House did not Disappear - so
Dumbledore was able to find Harry and rescue him - and have Hagrid take
him to the Dursleys.

If you continue to think you are correct - then there ARE NO Harry
Potter stories - so we have no argument


Good Day
Re: Secret Keeper [message #303115 ] So, 23 Juli 2006 02:48
Thomas Madura  
Sky Rider wrote:

> On Sat, 22 Jul 2006 11:56:54 GMT, Thom Madura
> <Thom-Madura [at] Worldnet.att.net> looked at Ron with an evil Grint in his
> eye and said :
>
>>Toon wrote:
>>
>>>On 21 Jul 2006 08:45:40 -0700, ag30476 [at] gmail.com wrote:
>>>
>>>>Richard Eney wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>In article <1152868794.521207.206680 [at] s13g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
>>>>><ag30476 [at] gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> <snip>
>
>>SHe said that the spell remains in force as it was as of the death of
>>the secret keeper - ie - the only people who know the secret are those
>>the secret keeper told in life - which now cannot be added to.
>
>
> So... since DD was secret keeper for the OoP headquarters it's now
> wide open to attack??

No - just the opposite - since DD is dead - no one else can learn the
secret - only those that DD told while he was alive will now know and
they cannot tell anyone else.

However - since they stopped meeting there after Sirius' death, the
secret itself was no longer true as well.
Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers *** [message #303129 ] So, 23 Juli 2006 07:02
Emma Pease  
In article <SARvg.301$8a.168 [at] fe3.news.blueyonder.co.uk>, DaveD wrote:
>
> "Sky Rider" <home [at] therange.com> wrote in message

>> I figured the only way Dumbledore could have known about all this is
>> from a witness. Since we know he'd not have spoken to Wormtail...
>> there are few other possibilities... and as one of Voldemorts closest
>> DE's, *and* as the person who passed on as much of the prophecy as was
>> known... Snape is the only logical choice. So Snape was there, saw the
>> whole thing and informed Dumbledore.

> I like the idea of Snape turning up to try and stop Voldy, but I'm not sure
> how that could have happened: Snape only heard the first part of the
> prophecy and told Dd. Presumably Voldy said he would go and kill the Potters
> (not sure how he jumpled to that conclusion unless he didn't know about
> Neville's birth, unlikely I suspect as the DEs had been torturing his
> parents). But how did Snape know where that was - only Wormtail could tell
> him due to the FC, and why would he (or did I miss something somewhere).
> Possibly the instant Lilly and James were both dead, the FC ceased to work,
> but by then they were dead so Snape could only arrive afterwards rather than
> be there to witness it.

1. Even if the possible witness had come with Voldemort he couldn't have
entered the cottage unless Pettigrew had told him. Voldemort could
have brought a whole crowd of people and none could have entered the
cottage until it was no more. Voldemort supporters if any would have
fled once they thought Voldemort was no more but someone picked up his
wand. The assumption is that this was Pettigrew.

2. How many knew that Pettigrew was the traitor? Surely the
Deatheaters who appeared to repent didn't know otherwise they would
have revealed Pettigrew as the traitor (he would have appeared to have
been a traitor to Voldemort also so no harm in revealing his role).

3. Neville's parents weren't tortured until after the incident at
Godric's Hollow.

>> Dumbledore didn't know if Harry was alive or dead sent Hagrid to check
>> while he sped off to protect Neville. Snape returned to Hogwarts and
>> remained there until he killed Dumbledore.
>
> But did Dd consider Neville might be one of two who fit the prophecy back
> then?

They may have gone into protection also but came out after Godric's
Hollow thinking they were safe (only to be captured and tortured).

Why were they tortured? Did Bellatrix think that Dumbledore had come
up with some new magic to defeat Voldemort and that the prophecy was a
trick to lure Voldemort into a trap either at Godric Hollow or
wherever Neville's parents were (in which case Neville's parents knew
what the magic was).

--
\----
|\* | Emma Pease Net Spinster
|_\/ Die Luft der Freiheit weht
Re: Secret Keeper [message #303142 ] So, 23 Juli 2006 14:08
Toon  
On 22 Jul 2006 17:34:32 -0700, strom [at] watson.ibm.com wrote:

>Toon wrote:
>> On 21 Jul 2006 14:38:10 -0700, strom [at] watson.ibm.com wrote:
>>
>> >The latter probably happened in Book 6 when
>> >Harry divulged openly that 12GP was the headquarters of
>> >the OOTP in front of the Dursleys -- Harry spoke
>> >the words, but somehow the "information" never
>> >made it into the Dursleys' brains -- instant Obliviation.
>>
>> Except DD announces it.
>
>That wasn't what I remembered, so I went back and checked.
>DD announces that Sirius has bequeathed 12GP to Harry.
>But it is Harry who reveals that 12GP
>is being used as headquarters,
>which I thought was the secret.

No, the place itself, which is why you don't see it without knowing
ahead of time. You quoted the proof below:

>At the Dursleys:
>Dumbledore:
>"Our problem ... is that Sirius also left you
>number twelve, Grimmauld Place."

Here he's naming it. Remember that.


>Snape:
>"I am not the Secret-Keeper; I cannot speak
>the name of the place. You understand how
>the enchantment works, I think?"

He cannot speak the name of it. Yet he knows it. Harry knows it, and
spoke it's name. Therefore, the fact it's the HQ's can't be the
secret. Or else Harry is so powerful as to break free of the FC. IT's
the buidling's locaiton. Otherwise, why hide the buildig? Poeple cna
ocem and go, and neevr see the order there.



>So it appeared that the FC did not by itself make
>the house unplottable; additional enchantments were
>needed. Furthermore, although presumably
>the FC keeps anyone who goes there from learning
>that the OOTP is headquartered there, it doesn't
>seem to protect people from seeing any
>valuable clues members of the order have left lying
>around, hence DD continues by saying:
>"It might be that Bellatrix will arrive on
>the doorstep at any moment. Naturally,
>we had to move out until such time as we have
>clarified the position." So the FC didn't seem to
>protect against someone entering the premises
>and seeing things the Order didn't want seen.


Right. Because that's not the secret. The building's location is.
It's further made unplottable to stymie those who already know it's
location. In the end, they'd assume it was destroyed or moved or
such.

Not to mention, the unplottable house is invisble until Harry read the
note from DD. if it was the fact that the house is the HQ, Harry
would be able to see it fine. The FC wouldn't make it plottable.

And sicne harry says the Order can use it,t hat's reevaling it's the
HQ for the Order. And Harry can't do that, he's not the Sk. DD is.
Re: Secret Keeper [message #303148 ] So, 23 Juli 2006 14:36
Eric Bohlman  
Toon <toon [at] toon.com> wrote in news:l8p6c25idmgkj1im90pf7sp84njumssumg [at]
4ax.com:

> On 22 Jul 2006 17:34:32 -0700, strom [at] watson.ibm.com wrote:
>>Snape:
>>"I am not the Secret-Keeper; I cannot speak
>>the name of the place. You understand how
>>the enchantment works, I think?"
>
> He cannot speak the name of it. Yet he knows it. Harry knows it, and
> spoke it's name. Therefore, the fact it's the HQ's can't be the
> secret. Or else Harry is so powerful as to break free of the FC. IT's
> the buidling's locaiton. Otherwise, why hide the buildig? Poeple cna
> ocem and go, and neevr see the order there.

Aren't you forgetting that, assuming that "Spinner's End" is roughly
contemporaneous with "Will and Won't," the HQ's been at least temporarily
relocated?
Re: Secret Keeper [message #303152 ] So, 23 Juli 2006 15:29
Thomas Madura  
Toon wrote:
> On 22 Jul 2006 17:34:32 -0700, strom [at] watson.ibm.com wrote:
>
>
>>Toon wrote:
>>
>>>On 21 Jul 2006 14:38:10 -0700, strom [at] watson.ibm.com wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>The latter probably happened in Book 6 when
>>>>Harry divulged openly that 12GP was the headquarters of
>>>>the OOTP in front of the Dursleys -- Harry spoke
>>>>the words, but somehow the "information" never
>>>>made it into the Dursleys' brains -- instant Obliviation.
>>>
>>>Except DD announces it.
>>
>>That wasn't what I remembered, so I went back and checked.
>>DD announces that Sirius has bequeathed 12GP to Harry.
>>But it is Harry who reveals that 12GP
>>is being used as headquarters,
>>which I thought was the secret.
>
>
> No, the place itself, which is why you don't see it without knowing
> ahead of time. You quoted the proof below:
>
>
>>At the Dursleys:
>>Dumbledore:
>>"Our problem ... is that Sirius also left you
>>number twelve, Grimmauld Place."
>
>
> Here he's naming it. Remember that.

Sure - Harry is the new owner of the house. That does not say that it is
the headquarters of the OOP


>
>
>
>>Snape:
>>"I am not the Secret-Keeper; I cannot speak
>>the name of the place. You understand how
>>the enchantment works, I think?"
>
>
> He cannot speak the name of it. Yet he knows it. Harry knows it, and
> spoke it's name. Therefore, the fact it's the HQ's can't be the
> secret. Or else Harry is so powerful as to break free of the FC. IT's
> the buidling's locaiton. Otherwise, why hide the buildig? Poeple cna
> ocem and go, and neevr see the order there.


You CAN speak the name of the location of the house. That is not the secret.

THe secret - which is on a piece of paper given to Harry From Dumbledore
and may be found on the last page of Chapter THree in OOP IS

"THe Headquarters of the OOP may be found at number 12 Grimmauld Place,
London"

Since it specifically stated in highlighted text in the Book itself -
there is NO QUESTION at all that the secret is the location of the
headquarters of the OOP.


Again - the FC charm binds PEOPLE from telling a secret - it has nothing
to do with a house being hid.




>
>
>
>
>>So it appeared that the FC did not by itself make
>>the house unplottable; additional enchantments were
>>needed. Furthermore, although presumably
>>the FC keeps anyone who goes there from learning
>>that the OOTP is headquartered there, it doesn't
>>seem to protect people from seeing any
>>valuable clues members of the order have left lying
>>around, hence DD continues by saying:
>>"It might be that Bellatrix will arrive on
>>the doorstep at any moment. Naturally,
>>we had to move out until such time as we have
>>clarified the position." So the FC didn't seem to
>>protect against someone entering the premises
>>and seeing things the Order didn't want seen.
>
>
>
> Right. Because that's not the secret.


NO - the secret - word for word - is above. It is NOT the location of
the building.


The building's location is.
> It's further made unplottable to stymie those who already know it's
> location. In the end, they'd assume it was destroyed or moved or
> such.
>
> Not to mention, the unplottable house is invisble until Harry read the
> note from DD. if it was the fact that the house is the HQ, Harry
> would be able to see it fine. The FC wouldn't make it plottable.
>
> And sicne harry says the Order can use it,t hat's reevaling it's the
> HQ for the Order. And Harry can't do that, he's not the Sk. DD is.

In this case - the order temporarily moved out of the house after Sirius
died. Until Harry was known to have been left the house - it was a
possibilty that Narcissus would have inherited it - making it unsuitable.

When the OOP moved out of the house - that made the secret false. It is
my feeling that a secret is only protected while it is true.

But, there is a problem here. The Pettigrew "secret" that the Potters
were hiding at their house - remained TRUE even after James and Lily
died because Harry was still alive. That would have protected Harry from
people who did not know the secret. In this case - we know that only
Sirius, Pettigrew, and eventually V knew the secret.

WE know that Dumbledore and Hagrid - and the MOM thought that Sirius was
the secret keeper - so they were not in on the secret. WE know that
because Sirius was convicted of Killing Pettigrew (SOmething that never
happened but they thought it did) - and no one testified that Pettigrew
was actually a DE and the secret keeper - and revealed the secret to V.
THey ALL (Including Snape) thought that Sirius had told V. Sirius would
not have been convicted of murder if he killed Pettigrew as a known DE
who had turned it the Potters to V - since they were at war with the DE's.

SO......

If Pettigrew was still alive (True)

And Harry was still alive (Also true)

then the FC was still in force. Only those who were in on the secret
could have found Harry at his parents house. That means only V (who was
defeated by love) - Pettigrew(who hid as a rat - a wierd choice too) -
and Sirius knew the secret.


How did Dumbledore and Hagrid find and rescue Harry?

THe only possibility I can think of is that the secret did not include
Harry - and once the Potters were dead - the secret ended.
Re: Secret Keeper [message #303170 ] So, 23 Juli 2006 21:48
Markku Uttula  
ag30476 [at] gmail.com wrote:
> Let's see if we can Tivo though this exchange
>
> ag: The plot hole created when Narcissa coms to look at the family
> home.
>
> Thom: If Narcissa comes, she can find the house but not the OotP'ers
> inside.

I think Narcissa would've been able to get to the house, as well as find
the OotP folk inside. Still, I think the Fidelius Charm would somehow
disable her from connecting the dots that the house was the
headquarters. And yes, I know how silly that sounds :p

Even though it sounds rather silly, it would explain - more or less -
how come Narcissa didn't connect the dots when Kreacher appeared and
told her OotP secrets ... without being able to divulge *where* the
headquarters was (by logic, she should've been able to tell it had to be
somewhere Kreacher had access to, quite likely in the most ancient and
noble House of the Black). Please also note the last paragraph of this
message for comment on wizards and logic.

> ag: The why does Bellatirx ask Snape about the location?
>
> Thom: JKR made a mistake.
>
> ag: Exactly

Actually; she specifically asked whether Snape claims that he can't
reveal the whereabouts of OotP's headquarters. She *didn't* ask where it
was located.

Furthermore, Snape couldn't have revealed the location; not as in "the
location of the headquarters of OotP". I believe (and could of course be
badly mistaken) that if he had asked "what is the location of the Black
House", Snape would most likely had no problem telling it (as it was not
the house that was the secret but the location of the headquarters -
even if they are as close to one-to-one relation as there can be). Of
course, she had no reason to ask such a question, since she already knew
the location and couldn't have a faintest idea that the house was
invaded by a mob of do-gooders who happen to call themselves Order of
the Phoenix.

Which brings up an interesting question; if it's known there is a
secret, could the Fidelius charm be broken by going through the map area
by area and asking "is it in this area", and everytime the person who
knows the secret, but can't tell it to others tells he can't answer, we
know we're in the right area; bring in a more detailed map :)

Of course, doing something like this would require some time and
applying quite some logic, and (as we know from the Philosopher's Stone)
it just so happens that "a lot of the greatest wizards haven't got an
ounce of logic" :)

--
Markku Uttula
Re: Secret Keeper [message #303172 ] So, 23 Juli 2006 21:55
Markku Uttula  
ag30476 [at] gmail.com wrote:
> DaveD wrote:
>> Erm, might I suggest you may be taking this a bit too seriously?
>
> Sorry for all the shouting (I did apolgize ahead of time too) but the
> discussion has gone from a discussion of plot - and I do thank
> everyone for trying to debunk my reconstruction - to a nitpicking
> over magic.

Welcome to Usenet. That sort of thing tends to happen here :)

--
Markku Uttula
Re: Secret Keeper [message #303173 ] So, 23 Juli 2006 22:02
Markku Uttula  
Benjamin Esham wrote:
>> Now - in the case of DD giving Harry the piece of Paper - DD wanted
>> Harry to know the secret - that the OOP met at Sirus' house. IF
>> Sirus had brought Harry to the house WITHOUT the piece of paper -
>> Harry would have been able to see the house - just not the OOP
>> meeting there.
>
> Why, then, could Harry only see the house after he had read the paper?

I'd say it's quite a lot like what's going on with the Leaky Cauldron.
The muggles can't see it because they don't know to look at it... "If
Hagrid hadn't pointed it out, Harry wouldn't have noticed it was
there" - remind us of anything we've seen later? "Harry thought, and no
sooner had he reached the part about number twelve, Grimmauld Place,
than a battered foor emerged out of nowhere between numbers eleven and
thirteen" ... I'd say that only at that point did Harry know what he was
looking for, and thus found it.

--
Markku Uttula
Re: Secret Keeper [message #303181 ] So, 23 Juli 2006 23:51
strom  
Markku Uttula wrote:
....
>
> Which brings up an interesting question; if it's known there is a
> secret, could the Fidelius charm be broken by going through the map area
> by area and asking "is it in this area", and everytime the person who
> knows the secret, but can't tell it to others tells he can't answer, we
> know we're in the right area; bring in a more detailed map :)

I believe that according to JKR's definition,
the magic prevents the *information* from being
disclosed. Some kind of magical counterpart to Heisenberg's
uncertainty principle kicks in; the more questions are answered
with "I can't say", the more cloudy the map (or the questioner's
memory) becomes, so that the total information content with
regard to the secret remains constant.

As I mentioned in another post, we know that at Privet Drive,
Dumbledore and Harry jointly did something
which if normal logic applied, would count
as revealing the secret to the Dursleys:
Dumbledore said that Harry now owns 12GP, followed by
Harry saying "You can continue to use *it* [i.e. 12GP] as
headquarters". Neither statement revealed the secret, but
Harry's statement *in the context
of Dumbledore's statement* would normally
have done so. But since Harry isn't the SK, we must
assume that the FC will prevent the communication
of information from Harry to VD, and therefore
that Vernon's mind will be appropriately
obliviated to make it impossible for him to connect
"Harry owns 12GP" with "You can continue to use *it*
as headquarters" to conclude "12GP is currently headquarters".

--
Rob Strom
Re: Secret Keeper [message #303187 ] Mo, 24 Juli 2006 00:42
Eric Bohlman  
strom [at] watson.ibm.com wrote in news:1153691491.544393.148650
[at] i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com:

> As I mentioned in another post, we know that at Privet Drive,
> Dumbledore and Harry jointly did something
> which if normal logic applied, would count
> as revealing the secret to the Dursleys:
> Dumbledore said that Harry now owns 12GP, followed by
> Harry saying "You can continue to use *it* [i.e. 12GP] as
> headquarters". Neither statement revealed the secret, but
> Harry's statement *in the context
> of Dumbledore's statement* would normally
> have done so. But since Harry isn't the SK, we must
> assume that the FC will prevent the communication
> of information from Harry to VD, and therefore
> that Vernon's mind will be appropriately
> obliviated to make it impossible for him to connect
> "Harry owns 12GP" with "You can continue to use *it*
> as headquarters" to conclude "12GP is currently headquarters".

The flaw in your argument is that, although Harry wasn't aware of it
until a few seconds later, when he said "you can continue to use it as
headquarters" it *wasn't* *currently* the headquarters. The secret was
"the the headquarters of OotP *can* be found at...," not "could have been
found in the past at..." or "might be found in the future at..." I would
assume that if the Order did indeed move back to 12GP, they would have to
cast a new FC because they have a new secret (I'm going on the assumption
that the FC protects against the disclosure of *specific facts* rather
than broad potential "families" of facts, e.g. it prevents disclosure of
the particular location of HQ at the time it was cast, not of all
possible subsequent locations).
Re: Secret Keeper [message #303189 ] Mo, 24 Juli 2006 00:50
ag30476  
Markku Uttula wrote:
> ag30476 [at] gmail.com wrote:
> > DaveD wrote:
> >> Erm, might I suggest you may be taking this a bit too seriously?
> >
> > Sorry for all the shouting (I did apolgize ahead of time too) but the
> > discussion has gone from a discussion of plot - and I do thank
> > everyone for trying to debunk my reconstruction - to a nitpicking
> > over magic.
>
> Welcome to Usenet. That sort of thing tends to happen here :)

Oh I'm OK with the Usenet stuff. I don't mind the fight, But this
newsgroup seems nice and all. So when I shouted (which is was no big
deal) and DaveD said that I was taking it too far, I thought it best
not to continue because the discussion would only degenerate from
there.

Now if the "magical consistency" crowd wants to continue thier
nitpicking over a magical mechanics, more power to them.

I'm just not interested in a discussion over the logic of magical
mechanics when such a thing does not exist. Besides it's done better
here

http://tinyurl.com/qo8o3
Re: Secret Keeper [message #303199 ] Mo, 24 Juli 2006 03:14
strom  
Eric Bohlman wrote:
> strom [at] watson.ibm.com wrote in news:1153691491.544393.148650
> [at] i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com:
>
....
> The flaw in your argument is that, although Harry wasn't aware of it
> until a few seconds later, when he said "you can continue to use it as
> headquarters" it *wasn't* *currently* the headquarters.

I take your point, but it seems to rely on a subtle point of
what the definition of "is the headquarters" is.

It appears that the scope of the Fidelius Charm rests on the
very subtle question as to whether description (a) or (b)
better describes the situation at the time DD and HP were
visiting the Dursleys:

(a) 12GP is still the headquarters of the OoTP, but is temporarily
left empty pending the investigation of a possible
security exposure. If the investigation reveals that the
possible exposure is not a problem, the OoTP will resume
holding meetings there. It will be considered as having
been the headquarters continuously though.
(b) 12GP is no longer the headquarters of the OoTP because
there does not exist at least one member of the OoTP present there.
If they decide it's safe and come back, it may resume being
the headquarters of the OoTP, but will require a new FC,
because its restored status as headquarters is a new secret.

It appears that either version (a) or (b) is a valid description
of the situation, so it's odd that something as important
as the scope of the charm rests on such a tiny point.

I slightly prefer description (a), but others might think differently.

The trouble with the strictness of (b) is that it could also apply
to the situation at the Potters' Godrics Hollow hideout, in that
if the family ever left the hideout even for a minute to take
Harry for a stroll in his carriage (perambulator?) then they'd
need a new FC and a new SK once they returned, since
for that minute the secret stopped being true.

--
Rob Strom
Re: Secret Keeper [message #303202 ] Mo, 24 Juli 2006 03:59
Thomas Madura  
strom [at] watson.ibm.com wrote:

> Markku Uttula wrote:
> ...
>
>>Which brings up an interesting question; if it's known there is a
>>secret, could the Fidelius charm be broken by going through the map area
>>by area and asking "is it in this area", and everytime the person who
>>knows the secret, but can't tell it to others tells he can't answer, we
>>know we're in the right area; bring in a more detailed map :)
>
>
> I believe that according to JKR's definition,
> the magic prevents the *information* from being
> disclosed. Some kind of magical counterpart to Heisenberg's
> uncertainty principle kicks in; the more questions are answered
> with "I can't say", the more cloudy the map (or the questioner's
> memory) becomes, so that the total information content with
> regard to the secret remains constant.
>
> As I mentioned in another post, we know that at Privet Drive,
> Dumbledore and Harry jointly did something
> which if normal logic applied, would count
> as revealing the secret to the Dursleys:
> Dumbledore said that Harry now owns 12GP, followed by
> Harry saying "You can continue to use *it* [i.e. 12GP] as
> headquarters". Neither statement revealed the secret, but
> Harry's statement *in the context
> of Dumbledore's statement* would normally
> have done so. But since Harry isn't the SK, we must
> assume that the FC will prevent the communication
> of information from Harry to VD, and therefore
> that Vernon's mind will be appropriately
> obliviated to make it impossible for him to connect
> "Harry owns 12GP" with "You can continue to use *it*
> as headquarters" to conclude "12GP is currently headquarters".
>
> --
> Rob Strom
>

But remember - at the time that Harry told Dumbledore that the OOP could
continue to use the house - they had already temporarily moved out of
the house. THe secret did not apply at that time - the headquarters was
NOT at the Black house.

It would make sense that the FC only protects a secret as long as the
secret is true.
Re: Secret Keeper [message #303203 ] Mo, 24 Juli 2006 04:08
Thomas Madura  
strom [at] watson.ibm.com wrote:

> Eric Bohlman wrote:
>
>>strom [at] watson.ibm.com wrote in news:1153691491.544393.148650
>> [at] i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com:
>>
>
> ...
>
>>The flaw in your argument is that, although Harry wasn't aware of it
>>until a few seconds later, when he said "you can continue to use it as
>>headquarters" it *wasn't* *currently* the headquarters.
>
>
> I take your point, but it seems to rely on a subtle point of
> what the definition of "is the headquarters" is.
>
> It appears that the scope of the Fidelius Charm rests on the
> very subtle question as to whether description (a) or (b)
> better describes the situation at the time DD and HP were
> visiting the Dursleys:
>
> (a) 12GP is still the headquarters of the OoTP, but is temporarily
> left empty pending the investigation of a possible
> security exposure. If the investigation reveals that the
> possible exposure is not a problem, the OoTP will resume
> holding meetings there. It will be considered as having
> been the headquarters continuously though.
> (b) 12GP is no longer the headquarters of the OoTP because
> there does not exist at least one member of the OoTP present there.
> If they decide it's safe and come back, it may resume being
> the headquarters of the OoTP, but will require a new FC,
> because its restored status as headquarters is a new secret.
>
> It appears that either version (a) or (b) is a valid description
> of the situation, so it's odd that something as important
> as the scope of the charm rests on such a tiny point.
>
> I slightly prefer description (a), but others might think differently.
>
> The trouble with the strictness of (b) is that it could also apply
> to the situation at the Potters' Godrics Hollow hideout, in that
> if the family ever left the hideout even for a minute to take
> Harry for a stroll in his carriage (perambulator?) then they'd
> need a new FC and a new SK once they returned, since
> for that minute the secret stopped being true.
>
> --
> Rob Strom
>

Actually - neither A nor B really applied.

When Sirius died - the OOP no longer had permisssion to use the house as
its Headquarters. Until the new ownership was established - they
certainly would have to leave. Having no heirs of his own, Sirius' next
of Kin would have been Narcissus - wife of a Death Eater - and surely
the OOP was not going to ask permission from her.

It was only when Sirius estate was settled in Harry's favor - probably
through a will - that it was possible for the OOP to get permission to
return there. Even then - they still needed Harry's permission to meet
there.
Re: Secret Keeper [message #303206 ] Mo, 24 Juli 2006 05:05
Markku Uttula  
Thom Madura wrote:
> But remember - at the time that Harry told Dumbledore that the OOP
> could continue to use the house - they had already temporarily moved
> out of the house. THe secret did not apply at that time - the
> headquarters was NOT at the Black house.
>
> It would make sense that the FC only protects a secret as long as the
> secret is true.

Also, before Harry goes on to mentioning the word "headquarters",
Dumbledore has already told everything else of the secret; the name of
the group as well as the location - as well as the fact that in the said
location there is a house in existence, and that the said house become a
problem for the aforementioned group :)

It could also be argued (though I think this is a rather weak argument)
that the Dursley's had no use what so ever for the information they were
given. They had no connotation as to what and who else is the "Order of
the Phoenix". Most likely they'll never even want to find out.

--
Markku Uttula
Vorheriges Thema:Whoops - that stupid horcrux theory!
Nächstes Thema:Book 7: What I know, What I think, and What I hope
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