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Science Fiction » alt.startrek » Law & Order canon soon to exceed Star Trek canon
Re: Law & Order canon soon to exceed Star Trek canon [message #267892 ] So, 21 Mai 2006 17:16
Wouter Valentijn  
ANIM8Rfsk wrote:
> in article 44705cca$0$31640$e4fe514c [at] news.xs4all.nl, Wouter Valentijn
> at liam [at] valentijn.nu wrote on 5/21/06 5:27 AM:
> The
> same day they also showed the worst DS9 of them all. Maybe they had
> a 'worst of' marathon going.

What episode was that?
I mean, the average episode of DS9 *TOWERED* over the average Enterprise
episode.

--
Wouter Valentijn

www.wouter.cc
www.nksf.nl
www.zeppodunsel.nl
liam=mail

"The best diplomat I know is a fully activated phaser bank."

Mister Scott, 'A Taste of Armageddon', Star Trek.
Re: Law & Order canon soon to exceed Star Trek canon [message #267895 ] So, 21 Mai 2006 20:25
ANIM8Rfsk  
in article 44708466$0$31641$e4fe514c [at] news.xs4all.nl, Wouter Valentijn at
liam [at] valentijn.nu wrote on 5/21/06 8:16 AM:

> ANIM8Rfsk wrote:
>> in article 44705cca$0$31640$e4fe514c [at] news.xs4all.nl, Wouter Valentijn
>> at liam [at] valentijn.nu wrote on 5/21/06 5:27 AM:
>> The
>> same day they also showed the worst DS9 of them all. Maybe they had
>> a 'worst of' marathon going.
>
> What episode was that?
> I mean, the average episode of DS9 *TOWERED* over the average Enterprise
> episode.

Oh, yes. It was the time travel 21st century one; I turned in right during
the preachy "we're all homeless because government is evil" bit. I almost
stopped watching DS9 when they ran that the first time.
Re: Law & Order canon soon to exceed Star Trek canon [message #267899 ] So, 21 Mai 2006 22:56
Wouter Valentijn  
ANIM8Rfsk wrote:
> in article 44708466$0$31641$e4fe514c [at] news.xs4all.nl, Wouter Valentijn
> at liam [at] valentijn.nu wrote on 5/21/06 8:16 AM:
>
>> ANIM8Rfsk wrote:
>>> in article 44705cca$0$31640$e4fe514c [at] news.xs4all.nl, Wouter
>>> Valentijn at liam [at] valentijn.nu wrote on 5/21/06 5:27 AM:
>>> The
>>> same day they also showed the worst DS9 of them all. Maybe they had
>>> a 'worst of' marathon going.
>>
>> What episode was that?
>> I mean, the average episode of DS9 *TOWERED* over the average
>> Enterprise episode.
>
> Oh, yes. It was the time travel 21st century one; I turned in right
> during the preachy "we're all homeless because government is evil"
> bit. I almost stopped watching DS9 when they ran that the first time.

I liked that one.
Sisko accidently had to become 'Bell' (I think the name was).
They had these 'sanctuary districts'.
Later on I had to think back to this when I watched 'Dark Angel'.

--
Wouter Valentijn

www.wouter.cc
www.nksf.nl
www.zeppodunsel.nl
liam=mail

"The best diplomat I know is a fully activated phaser bank."

Mister Scott, 'A Taste of Armageddon', Star Trek.
Re: Law & Order canon soon to exceed Star Trek canon [message #267923 ] Mo, 22 Mai 2006 23:18
Mike Dicenso  
On Sat, 20 May 2006, Wouter Valentijn wrote:

> Mike Dicenso wrote:
> > On Fri, 19 May 2006, Wouter Valentijn wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> >> Otoh... Then they also must have had a more intimate knowledge about
> >> the centre of the galaxy and 'the other end' of the galaxy (think
> >> Talos IV). And sometimes (All Our Yesterdays) you can hear Spock
> >> say things like: "I am not from the world you know at all. My home
> >> is a planet millions of light-years away."
> >>
> >>
> >> Which would imply intergalactic space or even another galaxy.
> >> And that's not mentioned in the article!
> >> An alternate explanation could be that he at that point already was
> >> trying to impress Zarabeth.
> >>
> >> In the review of the episode it is touched upon.
> >
> > When a character isn't being too specific, I tend to lump statements
> > like that as hyperbole rather than actual fact. Spock was also
> > starting to fall under the influence of his Vulcan ancestors of 5,000
> > years, so I'am going to treat that as shakey. Otherwise we have to
> > take McCoy's statement from "Balance of Terror" seriously about "a
> > galactic war", or what Picard ment about "being on the outer rim" in
> > "Conspiracy".
>
> During TOS they were all the time refering to 'the galaxy', implying they
> really did mean the entire galaxy, and not just the local region or 'just'
> the Alpha Quadrant.
> Of course they could have been talking about the *known* galaxy. In that
> case McCoy also referred to just that.


Only if you be absolutely literal can you assume he ment the *entire*
galaxy being plunged into war, if things got botched up. There's been
plenty of time throughout all five live-action series where they refer to
things in that manner.


> >>>> BTW, Graham Kennedy estimates the speed in 'The Chase' between
> >>>> 1,826,000 - 2,740,000 c.
> >>>> For Star Trek V his estimate is between 22,242,000 and 43,175,820
> >>>> c
> >>>>
> >>>> http://www.ditl.org/
> >>>>
> >>>> The article 'Warp Speed Anomalies' holds a number of these
> >>>> estimates.
> >>>
> >>> But not a complete list by far. I'am also aware of the article
> >>> since I contributed to it (uncredited).
>
>
> > The issue is when did the Enterprise start back for the Kalanden
> > outpost, and how much time actually passed from when they started at
> > about warp to when they reached warp 8.4, and then the additional 15
> > minutes before self-destruct when the engines were expected to
> > overload. After all, Kirk and the landing party clearly spent a good
> > part of a day there, then slept on the planet overnight, and did not
> > get inside the outpost until the morning. So at least a good part of
> > a day went by, that much is sure. So about 755,000c as an average
> > speed is a reasonable number.
> >
>
> About the time Kirk & co. spent there...
> The planet was about the size of our moon, but atmosphere and gravity were
> obviously close to Earth standards.
> We don't know how long a day or night was.
> If they beamed down a couple of hours before sunset and the night was
> relatively short (even shorter if the hemisphere they were on experienced
> summer) the moment they got inside the outpost at day break... We just don't
> have exact figures here, but my estimate would be less than 10 hours all
> together.


Unless indicated otherwise from a knowledgeable character, I have to
assume that the day and night cycle on the Kalanden outpost since the
parameters such as gravity and so on was set to mimic that of Earth or any
other similar class-M planet. Some things to keep in mind:

- What time of day did Kirk and the landing party depart? Was it mid-day?

- How long did the E-1701 go at warp 8, which according to Scotty will
take "a good long while" to get back, and then warp 8.4 (11.5 hours to
get back).

- When getting sleep, no one suggests that the artifical planet's night
cycle was less than Earth-normal. Again, that suggests several hours of
darkness.

Some time did go by after the Enterprise was hurled 990 ly. There was time
enough before Losira sabotages the engines for hours to go by (the scene
cuts between planet and starship with the landing party haveing to find
enough rocks to cover over D'Amato's body, ect), and at 11.5 hours at warp
8.4, excluding the already elapsed time, we can assume perhaps as much as
a day, or nearly so.

> >>>> Either way... Those 'warp scales' don't seem to account for much.
> >>>> Those formulas were never even mentioned on screen afaik.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Well, there are a few very close mentions, but they are quite rare.
> >>
> >> Can you cite an example of that?
> >
> >
> > Not directly. No one actually says "You calculate warp velocity by
> > cubing the number.", or anything like that. But there are mentions of
> > warp velocities that match up closely with what we know they should
> > be based on the backstage warp charts. The "Broken Bow" example
> > already given, for instance, which is contradicted in the very
> > episode by having the NX-01 cross 15 light years to reach Rigel X in
> > a matter of days!
> >
> > In "By Any Other Name", at the speeds you can calculate from the
> > backstage charts, it really would take the E-1701 thousands of years
> > to reach Andromeda. So for example, at warp 8, according to the
> > charts, the ship is doing 512c. To traverse approximately 2.5 million
> > ly at that speed would require 4,883 years.
> >
> > In TNG's "The Most Toys", Jovis' ship at warp 3 is calculated out to
> > 39c, which is what the TNG backstage charts says it should be.
> >
> > In the godawful VOY episode "Threshold", it is clearly stated that
> > warp 10 is infinite speed, which is exactly what it is according to
> > the backstage charts.
>
> Only sometimes they follow 'the charts'.


Indeed. But then, as the TNG TM puts it in the introduction, the writers
aren't bound by any of that when they write an episode...
-Mike
Re: Law & Order canon soon to exceed Star Trek canon [message #267930 ] Di, 23 Mai 2006 01:51
spiritofsupergirl  
Ken from Chicago wrote:
> Sure it's easy to overlook the few flowers in a field of manure but they
> were there. Of course that didn't stop me from quitting VOY after S3 only to
> try again when they brought in Jeri Ryan only to quit again after it was
> clear it was becoming the Janeway & Seven show. But at least it was good
> enough to make it seven years. ENT didn't make it half as far.

It most certainly did.

And the reason that ENT didn't last as long is because the audience was
burned by bad Trek for 7 years during VGR.

If they had skipped VGR and gone straight from DS9 to ENT, ENT would
have reached 7 years.

> P.S. And don't make me play the opening credits card.

The opening credits were just fine - as was the montage.

It's the song that some people have an issue with. I'm not one of them,
except that they should have gotten Scott Bakula to sing it.

BTW, did they ever do that music video on the ENT set that Russell
Watson mentioned?


Mark Moore
Re: Law & Order canon soon to exceed Star Trek canon [message #267931 ] Di, 23 Mai 2006 01:52
spiritofsupergirl  
masonReloaded wrote:
> George Peatty wrote:
> > On 28 Apr 2006 19:28:53 -0700, spiritofsupergirl [at] hotmail.com wrote:
> >
> > >I hate to say it, but it looks like, next season, the Law & Order canon
> > >will surpass the Star Trek canon.
> >
> > Not gonna happen until there are X L&O feature films ..
>
> and an animated series, 100s of books/comics, audio adventures, more
> computer/video games....and on and on...

None of which are Star Trek canon.


Mark Moore
Re: Law & Order canon soon to exceed Star Trek canon [message #267932 ] Di, 23 Mai 2006 01:54
spiritofsupergirl  
videonovels [at] yahoo.com wrote:
> Therefore spiritofsupergirl was correct was she said "No it is not
> [canon]."

He, not she. :P


Mark Moore
Re: Law & Order canon soon to exceed Star Trek canon [message #267933 ] Di, 23 Mai 2006 01:56
spiritofsupergirl  
George Peatty wrote:
> On Thu, 11 May 2006 16:59:38 GMT, "Kweeg" <kweeg [at] nospam.shaw.ca> wrote:
>
> >If ya watched it on the screen (and it's not a
> >cartoon) it's canon. No amount of whining or spouting off about what Gene
> >said will change it.
>
> On what basis then do you exclude the cartoons? Seems to me it's either all
> or none. I've heard it persuasively argued in this newsgroup and others
> that if it was on the screen, it's canon. Which means the cartoons are in,
> and the books, games, and software are out.

If you include the cartoons in the canon, then you'd have an awfully
hard time explaining how and why the appearance of the universe (or at
least the Alpha Quadrant) changed to that of a cartoon.


Mark Moore
Re: Law & Order canon soon to exceed Star Trek canon [message #267934 ] Di, 23 Mai 2006 02:03
spiritofsupergirl  
Wouter Valentijn wrote:
> ANIM8Rfsk wrote:
> > in article 44708466$0$31641$e4fe514c [at] news.xs4all.nl, Wouter Valentijn
> > at liam [at] valentijn.nu wrote on 5/21/06 8:16 AM:
> >
> >> ANIM8Rfsk wrote:
> >>> in article 44705cca$0$31640$e4fe514c [at] news.xs4all.nl, Wouter
> >>> Valentijn at liam [at] valentijn.nu wrote on 5/21/06 5:27 AM:
> >>> The
> >>> same day they also showed the worst DS9 of them all. Maybe they had
> >>> a 'worst of' marathon going.
> >>
> >> What episode was that?
> >> I mean, the average episode of DS9 *TOWERED* over the average
> >> Enterprise episode.
> >
> > Oh, yes. It was the time travel 21st century one; I turned in right
> > during the preachy "we're all homeless because government is evil"
> > bit. I almost stopped watching DS9 when they ran that the first time.
>
> I liked that one.
> Sisko accidently had to become 'Bell' (I think the name was).
> They had these 'sanctuary districts'.

I agree. I liked it, too.

During a syndicated repeat years ago, Terry Farrell did an introduction
to this episode (I forget if it was Part 1 or Part 2). She said that,
during the time that the episode was produced or aired, an article
appeared in the Los Angeles Times, proposing the same thing. Freaky.

The episode introductions were called The Deep Space Nine Chronicles.
How many of these were done?

Are they available on DVD?

I know Terry Farrell did the Chronicle for "Rejoined".


Mark Moore
Re: Law & Order canon soon to exceed Star Trek canon [message #267935 ] Di, 23 Mai 2006 02:05
spiritofsupergirl  
Mike Dicenso wrote:
> When a character isn't being too specific, I tend to lump statements like
> that as hyperbole rather than actual fact. Spock was also starting to fall
> under the influence of his Vulcan ancestors of 5,000 years, so I'am going
> to treat that as shakey. Otherwise we have to take McCoy's statement from
> "Balance of Terror" seriously about "a galactic war", or what Picard ment
> about "being on the outer rim" in "Conspiracy".

I always assumed Picard meant "the outer rim of Federation space" in
that episode.

> In the godawful VOY episode "Threshold", it is clearly stated that warp 10
> is infinite speed, which is exactly what it is according to the backstage
> charts.

So what is "transwarp"?


Mark Moore
Re: Law & Order canon soon to exceed Star Trek canon [message #267936 ] Di, 23 Mai 2006 02:08
spiritofsupergirl  
videonovels [at] yahoo.com wrote:
> spiritofsupergirl [at] hotmail.com wrote:
> > I just checked TV.com. The Law & Order franchise currently has 647
> > aired episodes. The Star Trek franchise has a little over 700 aired
> > episodes and 10 movies (okay, V isn't canon).
> >
> > I hate to say it, but it looks like, next season, the Law & Order canon
> > will surpass the Star Trek canon.
>
> .
>
> Some quick math, including all the series TOS, TAS, TNG, VOY, DS9, and
> ENT, shows that Star Trek has ~750 episodes.

TAS isn't canon.

And you forgot to include the movies.

> L&O has ~650 (you say).
>
> So that's 100 episodes to go, or about 4 seasons worth. Is Law & Order
> going to cover *4* seasons on in only one year? Not likely. It needs
> to survive until at least 2008 before it will break Star Trek's record.

Yes, it can. It's got, like, 4 seasons running simultaneously.

The most that Star Trek ever had was 2.


Mark Moore
Re: Law & Order canon soon to exceed Star Trek canon [message #267937 ] Di, 23 Mai 2006 02:10
spiritofsupergirl  
videonovels [at] yahoo.com wrote:
> So if you're going to start counting "sideshows" that are not truly Law
> & Order, then maybe I should start adding these episodes to the Trek
> List:
>
> - the 10 movies (each counting as 3 episodes = 30 total).

So you think the movies are a "sideshow"?

I included 9 of the 10 (excluding V) and counted each of them as
approximately 2 episodes. Would 3 be more accurate?


Mark Moore
Re: Law & Order canon soon to exceed Star Trek canon [message #267938 ] Di, 23 Mai 2006 02:14
spiritofsupergirl  
bartvanhemelen [at] gmail.com wrote:
> Never cared much for it. It's not bad but I always got the feeling I'd
> seen everything before in other shows. It's the kind of show that
> reaches s6 and then you suddenly think "hey, is that still on? Oh well,
> it's not like it's that bad... like goddamn 7th Heaven which apparently
> got renewed AGAIN."

More like cancelled and then resurrected after the Nielsen numbers for
the series finale came in.

And then "Everwood" (which had been renewed and scheduled for 7H's old
timeslot this Fall on the CW network) got de-renewed (cancelled) to
accomodate 7H.

I bet the "Everwood" actors are pissed right now. Their show was
renewed for another season and then cancelled.

Has that ever happened to a series before?


Mark Moore
Re: Law & Order canon soon to exceed Star Trek canon [message #267939 ] Di, 23 Mai 2006 02:15
spiritofsupergirl  
Steve Williams wrote:
> videonovels [at] yahoo.com wrote:
>
> > BETTER YET:
> >
> > Let's just stick to the OFFICIAL canon. NOT conviction (doesn't have
> > L&O in the title or follow the same format), and NOT some stupid
> > reality show (it's not part of L&O's fictional universe), and certainly
> > not the ~500 or so Trek specials/movies/spinoffs.
>
> EVEN BETTER STILL:
>
> Let's step back for a second and ask ourselves why the fuck we care
> whether or not L&O has more episodes of canon than Star Trek?

I didn't say episodes of canon. I said canon. That includes the movies.


Mark Moore
Re: Law & Order canon soon to exceed Star Trek canon [message #267940 ] Di, 23 Mai 2006 04:10
David Johnston  
On 22 May 2006 17:15:18 -0700, spiritofsupergirl [at] hotmail.com wrote:

>Steve Williams wrote:
>> videonovels [at] yahoo.com wrote:
>>
>> > BETTER YET:
>> >
>> > Let's just stick to the OFFICIAL canon. NOT conviction (doesn't have
>> > L&O in the title or follow the same format),

None of the L&Os follow the same format. Each series is different.
And needless to say, TNG doesn't follow TOS's format.
Re: Law & Order canon soon to exceed Star Trek canon [message #267941 ] Di, 23 Mai 2006 13:21
Wouter Valentijn  
spiritofsupergirl [at] hotmail.com wrote:
> Wouter Valentijn wrote:
>> ANIM8Rfsk wrote:
>>> in article 44708466$0$31641$e4fe514c [at] news.xs4all.nl, Wouter
>>> Valentijn at liam [at] valentijn.nu wrote on 5/21/06 8:16 AM:
>>>
>>>> ANIM8Rfsk wrote:
>>>>> in article 44705cca$0$31640$e4fe514c [at] news.xs4all.nl, Wouter
>>>>> Valentijn at liam [at] valentijn.nu wrote on 5/21/06 5:27 AM:
>>>>> The
>>>>> same day they also showed the worst DS9 of them all. Maybe they
>>>>> had a 'worst of' marathon going.
>>>>
>>>> What episode was that?
>>>> I mean, the average episode of DS9 *TOWERED* over the average
>>>> Enterprise episode.
>>>
>>> Oh, yes. It was the time travel 21st century one; I turned in right
>>> during the preachy "we're all homeless because government is evil"
>>> bit. I almost stopped watching DS9 when they ran that the first
>>> time.
>>
>> I liked that one.
>> Sisko accidently had to become 'Bell' (I think the name was).
>> They had these 'sanctuary districts'.
>
> I agree. I liked it, too.
>
> During a syndicated repeat years ago, Terry Farrell did an
> introduction to this episode (I forget if it was Part 1 or Part 2).
> She said that, during the time that the episode was produced or
> aired, an article appeared in the Los Angeles Times, proposing the
> same thing. Freaky.

Cool!
You think it's a coincidence?

>
> The episode introductions were called The Deep Space Nine Chronicles.
> How many of these were done?
>
> Are they available on DVD?
>

I hope so. This or nex year I want to start collecting those.

> I know Terry Farrell did the Chronicle for "Rejoined".

That was the episode where Dax came in contact again with a former host's
lover.


--
Wouter Valentijn

www.wouter.cc
www.nksf.nl
www.zeppodunsel.nl
liam=mail

"The best diplomat I know is a fully activated phaser bank."

Mister Scott, 'A Taste of Armageddon', Star Trek.
Re: Law & Order canon soon to exceed Star Trek canon [message #267942 ] Di, 23 Mai 2006 14:06
Wouter Valentijn  
Mike Dicenso wrote:
> On Sat, 20 May 2006, Wouter Valentijn wrote:
>
>> Mike Dicenso wrote:
>>> On Fri, 19 May 2006, Wouter Valentijn wrote:
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>>>> Otoh... Then they also must have had a more intimate knowledge
>>>> about the centre of the galaxy and 'the other end' of the galaxy
>>>> (think Talos IV). And sometimes (All Our Yesterdays) you can hear
>>>> Spock say things like: "I am not from the world you know at all.
>>>> My home is a planet millions of light-years away."
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Which would imply intergalactic space or even another galaxy.
>>>> And that's not mentioned in the article!
>>>> An alternate explanation could be that he at that point already was
>>>> trying to impress Zarabeth.
>>>>
>>>> In the review of the episode it is touched upon.
>>>
>>> When a character isn't being too specific, I tend to lump statements
>>> like that as hyperbole rather than actual fact. Spock was also
>>> starting to fall under the influence of his Vulcan ancestors of
>>> 5,000 years, so I'am going to treat that as shakey. Otherwise we
>>> have to take McCoy's statement from "Balance of Terror" seriously
>>> about "a galactic war", or what Picard ment about "being on the
>>> outer rim" in "Conspiracy".
>>
>> During TOS they were all the time refering to 'the galaxy', implying
>> they really did mean the entire galaxy, and not just the local
>> region or 'just' the Alpha Quadrant.
>> Of course they could have been talking about the *known* galaxy. In
>> that case McCoy also referred to just that.
>
>
> Only if you be absolutely literal can you assume he ment the *entire*
> galaxy being plunged into war, if things got botched up. There's been
> plenty of time throughout all five live-action series where they
> refer to things in that manner.
>

The literal or non-literal?

>
>>>>>> BTW, Graham Kennedy estimates the speed in 'The Chase' between
>>>>>> 1,826,000 - 2,740,000 c.
>>>>>> For Star Trek V his estimate is between 22,242,000 and 43,175,820
>>>>>> c
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.ditl.org/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The article 'Warp Speed Anomalies' holds a number of these
>>>>>> estimates.
>>>>>
>>>>> But not a complete list by far. I'am also aware of the article
>>>>> since I contributed to it (uncredited).
>>
>>
>>> The issue is when did the Enterprise start back for the Kalanden
>>> outpost, and how much time actually passed from when they started at
>>> about warp to when they reached warp 8.4, and then the additional 15
>>> minutes before self-destruct when the engines were expected to
>>> overload. After all, Kirk and the landing party clearly spent a good
>>> part of a day there, then slept on the planet overnight, and did not
>>> get inside the outpost until the morning. So at least a good part of
>>> a day went by, that much is sure. So about 755,000c as an average
>>> speed is a reasonable number.
>>>
>>
>> About the time Kirk & co. spent there...
>> The planet was about the size of our moon, but atmosphere and
>> gravity were obviously close to Earth standards.
>> We don't know how long a day or night was.
>> If they beamed down a couple of hours before sunset and the night was
>> relatively short (even shorter if the hemisphere they were on
>> experienced summer) the moment they got inside the outpost at day
>> break... We just don't have exact figures here, but my estimate
>> would be less than 10 hours all together.
>
>
> Unless indicated otherwise from a knowledgeable character, I have to
> assume that the day and night cycle on the Kalanden outpost since the
> parameters such as gravity and so on was set to mimic that of Earth
> or any other similar class-M planet. Some things to keep in mind:
>
> - What time of day did Kirk and the landing party depart? Was it
> mid-day?

Or just a couple of hours before sunset.
And at what time of year? Is it summer?

>
> - How long did the E-1701 go at warp 8, which according to Scotty will
> take "a good long while" to get back, and then warp 8.4 (11.5 hours
> to get back).
>

'A good while' to get back to that planet yes....
8.4 isn't that much faster than 8 (only about 1.16 faster).

11.337 (in precise Spock mode) hours would be at warp 8: 13.12399 hours . :)

Hmmm. I see what you mean.


> - When getting sleep, no one suggests that the artifical planet's
> night cycle was less than Earth-normal. Again, that suggests several
> hours of darkness.

Depends on what season it was I guess.

>
> Some time did go by after the Enterprise was hurled 990 ly. There was
> time enough before Losira sabotages the engines for hours to go by
> (the scene cuts between planet and starship with the landing party
> haveing to find enough rocks to cover over D'Amato's body, ect), and
> at 11.5 hours at warp
> 8.4, excluding the already elapsed time, we can assume perhaps as
> much as a day, or nearly so.

Okay...
But what about the overdrive the Enterprise experienced?
They didn't stay at 8.4, they leapt to 14.1, which should be significantly
faster. (about 4.73 times faster).
Otoh, we don't know at what speed they proceeded in the next lap of the
journey, nor do we know what time it took exactly.

<snip>

I'm beginning to understand why the estimate was chosen as it was, but still
consider it a bit on the long side.

Suppose taking the apparent time spend on the planet I'd say: transported
there late in the afternoon, rescued early in the morning the day after
during the hight of summer relatively close to the pole, but not so close it
would be very cold...... Hmmm... Still not enough data to be more exact.

--
Wouter Valentijn

www.wouter.cc
www.nksf.nl
www.zeppodunsel.nl
liam=mail

"The best diplomat I know is a fully activated phaser bank."

Mister Scott, 'A Taste of Armageddon', Star Trek.
Re: Law & Order canon soon to exceed Star Trek canon [message #267943 ] Di, 23 Mai 2006 14:14
Wouter Valentijn  
spiritofsupergirl [at] hotmail.com wrote:
> videonovels [at] yahoo.com wrote:
>> So if you're going to start counting "sideshows" that are not truly
>> Law & Order, then maybe I should start adding these episodes to the
>> Trek List:
>>
>> - the 10 movies (each counting as 3 episodes = 30 total).
>
> So you think the movies are a "sideshow"?
>
> I included 9 of the 10 (excluding V) and counted each of them as
> approximately 2 episodes. Would 3 be more accurate?
>
>

There is still no ground to exclude V... ;) Unless Paramount itself says
so I never will.
As for the length of a movie... About two hours each?
An episode ranges from about 40 to about 45 minutes I think.

--
Wouter Valentijn

www.wouter.cc
www.nksf.nl
www.zeppodunsel.nl
liam=mail

"The best diplomat I know is a fully activated phaser bank."

Mister Scott, 'A Taste of Armageddon', Star Trek.
Re: Law & Order canon soon to exceed Star Trek canon [message #267944 ] Di, 23 Mai 2006 15:35
bartvanhemelen  
spiritofsupergirl [at] hotmail.com wrote:
> During a syndicated repeat years ago, Terry Farrell did an introduction
> to this episode (I forget if it was Part 1 or Part 2). She said that,
> during the time that the episode was produced or aired, an article
> appeared in the Los Angeles Times, proposing the same thing. Freaky.
>
> The episode introductions were called The Deep Space Nine Chronicles.
> How many of these were done?
>
> Are they available on DVD?

There are some on one of the DS9 DVD sets. Of course, it would have
made sense to have each be with the ep it is supposed to introduce, but
this is ST so instead you get a bunch of them on the disc with extras
for s4... Sheesh, the sheer incompetence of the makers of those sets.
How 'bout a commentary for Trials & Tribbleations? "No can do that..."

But when it comes to setting the price, they want top dollar. Never
mind that other tv shows offer far superior collections for far less
money.

--
BVH
Re: Law & Order canon soon to exceed Star Trek canon [message #267945 ] Di, 23 Mai 2006 16:58
Wouter Valentijn  
bartvanhemelen [at] gmail.com wrote:
> spiritofsupergirl [at] hotmail.com wrote:
>> During a syndicated repeat years ago, Terry Farrell did an
>> introduction to this episode (I forget if it was Part 1 or Part 2).
>> She said that, during the time that the episode was produced or
>> aired, an article appeared in the Los Angeles Times, proposing the
>> same thing. Freaky.
>>
>> The episode introductions were called The Deep Space Nine Chronicles.
>> How many of these were done?
>>
>> Are they available on DVD?
>
> There are some on one of the DS9 DVD sets. Of course, it would have
> made sense to have each be with the ep it is supposed to introduce,
> but this is ST so instead you get a bunch of them on the disc with
> extras for s4... Sheesh, the sheer incompetence of the makers of
> those sets. How 'bout a commentary for Trials & Tribbleations? "No
> can do that..."
>

Uhuh...
Thanks for the info Bart.


--
Wouter Valentijn

www.wouter.cc
www.nksf.nl
www.zeppodunsel.nl
liam=mail

"The best diplomat I know is a fully activated phaser bank."

Mister Scott, 'A Taste of Armageddon', Star Trek.
Re: Law & Order canon soon to exceed Star Trek canon [message #267951 ] Mi, 24 Mai 2006 02:30
Mike Dicenso  
On Tue, 23 May 2006, Wouter Valentijn wrote:

> >>> When a character isn't being too specific, I tend to lump statements
> >>> like that as hyperbole rather than actual fact. Spock was also
> >>> starting to fall under the influence of his Vulcan ancestors of
> >>> 5,000 years, so I'am going to treat that as shakey. Otherwise we
> >>> have to take McCoy's statement from "Balance of Terror" seriously
> >>> about "a galactic war", or what Picard ment about "being on the
> >>> outer rim" in "Conspiracy".
> >>
> >> During TOS they were all the time refering to 'the galaxy', implying
> >> they really did mean the entire galaxy, and not just the local
> >> region or 'just' the Alpha Quadrant.
> >> Of course they could have been talking about the *known* galaxy. In
> >> that case McCoy also referred to just that.
> >
> >
> > Only if you be absolutely literal can you assume he ment the *entire*
> > galaxy being plunged into war, if things got botched up. There's been
> > plenty of time throughout all five live-action series where they
> > refer to things in that manner.
> >
>
> The literal or non-literal?

In terms, literal or non-literal, of making "across the galaxy", or "this
will effect the entire" galaxy type statements. But again, we have no way
of knowing how literal they're being, or if it's just hyperbole to make a
point.


> >>>>>> BTW, Graham Kennedy estimates the speed in 'The Chase' between
> >>>>>> 1,826,000 - 2,740,000 c.
> >>>>>> For Star Trek V his estimate is between 22,242,000 and 43,175,820
> >>>>>> c
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> http://www.ditl.org/
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> The article 'Warp Speed Anomalies' holds a number of these
> >>>>>> estimates.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> But not a complete list by far. I'am also aware of the article
> >>>>> since I contributed to it (uncredited).
> >>
> >>
> >>> The issue is when did the Enterprise start back for the Kalanden
> >>> outpost, and how much time actually passed from when they started at
> >>> about warp to when they reached warp 8.4, and then the additional 15
> >>> minutes before self-destruct when the engines were expected to
> >>> overload. After all, Kirk and the landing party clearly spent a good
> >>> part of a day there, then slept on the planet overnight, and did not
> >>> get inside the outpost until the morning. So at least a good part of
> >>> a day went by, that much is sure. So about 755,000c as an average
> >>> speed is a reasonable number.
> >>>
> >>
> >> About the time Kirk & co. spent there...
> >> The planet was about the size of our moon, but atmosphere and
> >> gravity were obviously close to Earth standards.
> >> We don't know how long a day or night was.
> >> If they beamed down a couple of hours before sunset and the night was
> >> relatively short (even shorter if the hemisphere they were on
> >> experienced summer) the moment they got inside the outpost at day
> >> break... We just don't have exact figures here, but my estimate
> >> would be less than 10 hours all together.
> >
> >
> > Unless indicated otherwise from a knowledgeable character, I have to
> > assume that the day and night cycle on the Kalanden outpost since the
> > parameters such as gravity and so on was set to mimic that of Earth
> > or any other similar class-M planet. Some things to keep in mind:
> >
> > - What time of day did Kirk and the landing party depart? Was it
> > mid-day?
>
> Or just a couple of hours before sunset.
> And at what time of year? Is it summer?

There was no indication of a late afternoon sky, nor a setting sun visible
on horizon. The temperature was comfortable enough that the crew wasn't
freezing, so I suppose spring or summer, maybe autumn on the outside,
assuming a tilted axis to make for signficant seasonal changes.


> > - How long did the E-1701 go at warp 8, which according to Scotty will
> > take "a good long while" to get back, and then warp 8.4 (11.5 hours
> > to get back).
> >
>
> 'A good while' to get back to that planet yes....
> 8.4 isn't that much faster than 8 (only about 1.16 faster).

Except that warp speed scaling doesn't appear to be just that simple.

> 11.337 (in precise Spock mode) hours would be at warp 8: 13.12399 hours . :)
>
> Hmmm. I see what you mean.

Assuming the warp scale worked that way. Scotty's expression seems to
indicate that it *really* is going to be a *long* time getting back, not
merely hours, or a day. Not sure if it would be a logarithmic or
expontential function...


> > - When getting sleep, no one suggests that the artifical planet's
> > night cycle was less than Earth-normal. Again, that suggests several
> > hours of darkness.
>
> Depends on what season it was I guess.

Be it as it may, a number of hours went by, and the crew on the Enterprise
fully expected to take at *least* 11.33 hours or so at normal safe maximum
speed. Again, hard to say when they reached warp 8.4 in their return
journey. But some considerable time went by.


> >
> > Some time did go by after the Enterprise was hurled 990 ly. There was
> > time enough before Losira sabotages the engines for hours to go by
> > (the scene cuts between planet and starship with the landing party
> > haveing to find enough rocks to cover over D'Amato's body, ect), and
> > at 11.5 hours at warp
> > 8.4, excluding the already elapsed time, we can assume perhaps as
> > much as a day, or nearly so.
>
> Okay...
> But what about the overdrive the Enterprise experienced?
> They didn't stay at 8.4, they leapt to 14.1, which should be significantly
> faster. (about 4.73 times faster).
> Otoh, we don't know at what speed they proceeded in the next lap of the
> journey, nor do we know what time it took exactly.

The increase from warp 8.4 to 14.1 took about 15 minutes. This isn't
merely a speed increase of 4.73 to 1, it's more like a order of magnitude,
likely several given the ship went from 11.33 hours to what appeared to be
15 minutes or so, and only then after stressing the engines to the point
that they'd blow up.


> I'm beginning to understand why the estimate was chosen as it was, but still
> consider it a bit on the long side.
>
> Suppose taking the apparent time spend on the planet I'd say: transported
> there late in the afternoon, rescued early in the morning the day after
> during the hight of summer relatively close to the pole, but not so close it
> would be very cold...... Hmmm... Still not enough data to be more exact.


Either way, the E-1701 at warp 8.4 wasn't going to be doing better than
2,000 ly a day. The E-D, on the other hand, at normal maximum warp is
capable of a high-end of 2,8557 ly a day, based on crossing 40 kly in 14
days.
-Mike
Re: Law & Order canon soon to exceed Star Trek canon [message #267952 ] Mi, 24 Mai 2006 03:43
Kweeg  
<spiritofsupergirl [at] hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1148343022.181503.242170 [at] g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> videonovels [at] yahoo.com wrote:
> > So if you're going to start counting "sideshows" that are not truly Law
> > & Order, then maybe I should start adding these episodes to the Trek
> > List:
> >
> > - the 10 movies (each counting as 3 episodes = 30 total).
>
> So you think the movies are a "sideshow"?
>
> I included 9 of the 10 (excluding V) and counted each of them as
> approximately 2 episodes. Would 3 be more accurate?

Exclude V and include Nemesis? Now that *is* a stretch.
--

Qapla'
Kweeg
Ten of Canadian Clubs in the Eeeevil Trek Cabal
"Half a gallon a'scotch!" Scotty (Spectre of the Gun)
1,079,252,848.8 km/h, not just a good idea, it's the law.
"So say we all!"
Re: Law & Order canon soon to exceed Star Trek canon [message #267957 ] Mi, 24 Mai 2006 11:25
Wouter Valentijn  
Mike Dicenso wrote:
> On Tue, 23 May 2006, Wouter Valentijn wrote:

<snip>

>>>
>>> Unless indicated otherwise from a knowledgeable character, I have to
>>> assume that the day and night cycle on the Kalanden outpost since
>>> the parameters such as gravity and so on was set to mimic that of
>>> Earth or any other similar class-M planet. Some things to keep in
>>> mind:
>>>
>>> - What time of day did Kirk and the landing party depart? Was it
>>> mid-day?
>>
>> Or just a couple of hours before sunset.
>> And at what time of year? Is it summer?
>
> There was no indication of a late afternoon sky, nor a setting sun
> visible on horizon. The temperature was comfortable enough that the
> crew wasn't freezing, so I suppose spring or summer, maybe autumn on
> the outside, assuming a tilted axis to make for signficant seasonal
> changes.
>

Indeed.

<snip>

>
> Either way, the E-1701 at warp 8.4 wasn't going to be doing better
> than 2,000 ly a day. The E-D, on the other hand, at normal maximum
> warp is capable of a high-end of 2,8557 ly a day, based on crossing
> 40 kly in 14 days.

Yeah.


--
Wouter Valentijn

www.wouter.cc
www.nksf.nl
www.zeppodunsel.nl
liam=mail

"The best diplomat I know is a fully activated phaser bank."

Mister Scott, 'A Taste of Armageddon', Star Trek.
Re: Star Trek: In Space, No One Can Hear You SUCK [message #293602 ] Fr, 30 Juni 2006 16:13
Fozzi  
"Snake" <fluidstates_NO+SPAM [at] REMOVE-ME.verizon.IHATESPAM.SPAM_VAC.com> wrote
in message news:Y_98g.5105$Rf6.3785 [at] trndny05...
> "ToolPackinMama" <laura [at] lauragoodwin.org> wrote in message
> news:tdOdnV8IGulKlP3Z4p2dnA [at] comcast.com...
>> Brian Thorn wrote:
>>
>> Yeah, and that's NOT one of them! :)
>
> Oh yes it is!
>
> "When our writing sucks...just add sex!"

and when it sucks hard enough to inititiate the big crunch, show the top of
t'pols bum crevice on screen.
really they cant complain they deliberately went after an audience that was
interested in superflous nonsence, and they got it, the trouble being that
when you attract the superficial they tenhd to be superficial, which means
they'd rather watch big brother or survivor in the hopes of seeing a
fraction of a second of exposed nipple

cheers
fozzi
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