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Science Fiction » alt.startrek » Top 6 Most dubious command decisions made by Kirk
| Re: Top 6 Most dubious command decisions made by Kirk [message #187986 ] |
Di, 20 Dezember 2005 03:51 |
|
in article tzrpf.61$R84.4 [at] newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net, Bo Raxo at
invasions_r_us [at] thepentagon.removethis.com wrote on 12/18/05 10:30 PM:
>
> "Robert Bernardo" <rbernardo [at] iglou.com> wrote in message
> news:Pine.GSO.4.61.0512132213120.18517 [at] shell1...
>> On Tue, 13 Dec 2005, Laura wrote:
>>
>>> The companion let her die...
>>
>> Please watch the episode again. The Companion sacrificed its self
>> to become one with Nancy and thus in saving her life, the Companion became
>> mortal. The Companion did not have to do that.
>>
>> No zombie or legal theories involved,
>> Robert Bernardo
>
> The companion kidnapped her and kept her from getting life-saving medical
> care.
>
> The parallel would be if I kidnapped a diabetic and withheld insulin until
> that person died. Wouldn't you say I had committed murder? I'm not an
> attorney, but it's a pretty good bet a court would.
Absolutely. If you kidnapped somebody and they died as a result, they'd be
prosecuting you for murder. Especially if it was explained to you that your
victim needed medical treatment and you still denied it.
>
> In fairness, Hedford was hugely annoying. In the syndicated version they cut
> out some of her carping, softening her character. But she was a real PITA.
> So perhaps that helped explain our heroes' indifference ;]
>
>
> Bo Raxo
>
>
>
--
You Can't Stop the Signal
SERENITY on DVD TOMORROW!!
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000BW7QWW/tvshowsond vdcom
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| Re: Top 6 Most dubious command decisions made by Kirk [message #187988 ] |
Di, 20 Dezember 2005 04:21 |
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Wouter Valentijn wrote:
> Ah, I think that we have to agree to disagree.
That's not possible! We can't agree to disagree! That would be
civilized! We can't be civilized! That's impossible! This is ~usenet~!
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| Re: Top 6 Most dubious command decisions made by Kirk [message #187989 ] |
Di, 20 Dezember 2005 04:24 |
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ANIM8Rfsk wrote:
> in article 43a72aba$0$11063$e4fe514c [at] news.xs4all.nl, Wouter Valentijn at
> liam [at] valentijn.nu wrote on 12/19/05 2:48 PM:
>>It amounted to it:
>>"She's perfectly healthy".
>
>
> The Companion was. The reanimated body of Hedford was. Doesn't mean that
> Hedford was.
I agree.
The companion spoke for Hedford once the annexation of Hedford's body
was accomplished. Why should we count the companion as a reliable
source of information?
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| Re: Top 6 Most dubious command decisions made by Kirk [message #187990 ] |
Di, 20 Dezember 2005 04:26 |
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ANIM8Rfsk wrote:
> it was a story about a monster who won the day because no one cared about
> it's victim.
We don't agree about much, but I agree with you about that.
It's not that I don't understand what the intended message of the ep
was. I know what the intended feel-good message was. I'm just saying
that the story was told very poorly, in a manner that was ambiguous, and
that left many troubling questions open.
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| Re: Top 6 Most dubious command decisions made by Kirk [message #187991 ] |
Di, 20 Dezember 2005 04:28 |
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ANIM8Rfsk wrote:
> How was the Companion not a predator?
Exactly! It captured the shuttlecraft and brought those unwilling
captives to its nest... for its own uses. That's predatory behavior.
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| Re: Top 6 Most dubious command decisions made by Kirk [message #187992 ] |
Di, 20 Dezember 2005 04:28 |
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ANIM8Rfsk wrote:
> If you kidnapped somebody and they died as a result, they'd be
> prosecuting you for murder. Especially if it was explained to you that your
> victim needed medical treatment and you still denied it.
Seriously!
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| Re: Top 6 Most dubious command decisions made by Kirk [message #187997 ] |
Di, 20 Dezember 2005 19:56 |
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ANIM8Rfsk wrote:
> in article 43a72cde$0$11064$e4fe514c [at] news.xs4all.nl, Wouter Valentijn
> at liam [at] valentijn.nu wrote on 12/19/05 2:57 PM:
>
>> ANIM8Rfsk wrote:
>>> in article 43a6fb2d$0$11080$e4fe514c [at] news.xs4all.nl, Wouter
>>> Valentijn at liam [at] valentijn.nu wrote on 12/19/05 11:25 AM:
>>>
>>>> ANIM8Rfsk wrote:
>>>>> in article 43a5d8ac$0$11063$e4fe514c [at] news.xs4all.nl, Wouter
>>>>> Valentijn at liam [at] valentijn.nu wrote on 12/18/05 2:46 PM:
>>>>>
>>>>>> ANIM8Rfsk wrote:
>>>>>>> in article 43a585c0$0$11079$e4fe514c [at] news.xs4all.nl, Wouter
>>>>>>> Valentijn at liam [at] valentijn.nu wrote on 12/18/05 8:52 AM:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ANIM8Rfsk wrote:
>>>>>>>>> in article 43a491cb$0$11074$e4fe514c [at] news.xs4all.nl, Wouter
>>>>>>>>> Valentijn at liam [at] valentijn.nu wrote on 12/17/05 3:31 PM:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> ANIM8Rfsk wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> in article 43a4333c$0$11079$e4fe514c [at] news.xs4all.nl, Wouter
>>>>>>>>>>> Valentijn at liam [at] valentijn.nu wrote on 12/17/05 8:48 AM:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Brad Filippone wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> <snip>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I had a few problems with the "find a solution right now
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or it's genocide" approach on Deneva :)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I have a problem with people calling it genocide when
>>>>>>>>>>>>> clearly the Denevans are not the only humans in the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> universe.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> It would have been the genocide of the Denevan humans.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> That assumes Denvan humans are a race, of course.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> No.
>>>>>>>>>> It assumes a specific group of people.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> So do you think you can commit genocide against a city or a
>>>>>>>>> high school, if you wipe out everybody in the area?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> If so, we've sort of watered the term down to nothing.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> No, as I said: a *specific* group of people. In this case the
>>>>>>>> entire population of the colony.
>>>>>>>> Specific as in 'unique'.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Why is a group of colonists on one planet any more unique than
>>>>>>> all the settlers that moved to Virginia City?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If the people of this Virginia City are targeted than that would
>>>>>> be mass murder. Or an 'ethnic cleansing'.
>>>>>> When talking about a whole colony or a group of people targeted
>>>>>> because of their religion or ethnic back ground, I'd call it
>>>>>> genocide.
>>>>>
>>>>> But they aren't targeted because of religion or ethnic background.
>>>>> They're targeted to contain an infectious disease.
>>>>
>>>> The end result would still be the same sadly.
>>>>
>>> But you specified that's what would make you call it genocide. So
>>> why is Kirk wiping out a colony genocide?
>>
>> Because the whole population of a colony (a "nation", a "people")
>> would be gone.
>
> And why is that different than a whole city being wiped out?
If you have an entire colony (no matter what size it has) it is in itself
more unique than a city (although that might be 100 times bigger than that
colony).
A city may be part of a much larger whole.
Of course in some cases they might be the same if the entire colony is jut
one city.
Suppose you have a small group of people consisting of say thirty or fifty
people that goes to some island. Suppose they call themselves the
Klappa-Klappa-Puka-Holly-Whoop, aka the people of the Double Klappa, or DK
for short. And they are recognized as such.
The moment some rogue nation or so comes along and for whatever reason nukes
that island the people of the DK are gone.
I would call that genocide. Or if the nuke goes astray I'd call it attempted
genocide.
--
Wouter Valentijn
www.wouter.cc
www.nksf.nl
www.zeppodunsel.nl
liam=mail
The glory of creation is in its infinite diversity and the ways our
differences combine to create meaning and beauty.
Vulcan IDIC "Is There In Truth No Beauty?"
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| Re: Top 6 Most dubious command decisions made by Kirk [message #187998 ] |
Di, 20 Dezember 2005 19:57 |
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Kweeg wrote:
> "Wouter Valentijn" <liam [at] valentijn.nu> wrote in message
> news:43a72cde$0$11064$e4fe514c [at] news.xs4all.nl...
>> ANIM8Rfsk wrote:
>>> in article 43a6fb2d$0$11080$e4fe514c [at] news.xs4all.nl, Wouter
>>> Valentijn at liam [at] valentijn.nu wrote on 12/19/05 11:25 AM:
<snip>
>>>>> But they aren't targeted because of religion or ethnic background.
>>>>> They're targeted to contain an infectious disease.
>>>>
>>>> The end result would still be the same sadly.
>>>>
>>> But you specified that's what would make you call it genocide. So
>>> why is Kirk wiping out a colony genocide?
>>
>> Because the whole population of a colony (a "nation", a "people")
>> would be gone.
>
>
> Wow you're still trying to convince "ANIM8Rfsk" of the blatantly
> obvious. You've more patience than I, 'e's not the brightest phaser
> in the armory...
Hmmm... Maybe there should be an agreement to disagree. :)
--
Wouter Valentijn
www.wouter.cc
www.nksf.nl
www.zeppodunsel.nl
liam=mail
The glory of creation is in its infinite diversity and the ways our
differences combine to create meaning and beauty.
Vulcan IDIC "Is There In Truth No Beauty?"
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| Re: Top 6 Most dubious command decisions made by Kirk [message #187999 ] |
Di, 20 Dezember 2005 19:59 |
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ToolPackinMama wrote:
> ANIM8Rfsk wrote:
>> in article 43a72aba$0$11063$e4fe514c [at] news.xs4all.nl, Wouter
>> Valentijn at liam [at] valentijn.nu wrote on 12/19/05 2:48 PM:
>
>>> It amounted to it:
>>> "She's perfectly healthy".
>>
>>
>> The Companion was. The reanimated body of Hedford was. Doesn't
>> mean that Hedford was.
>
> I agree.
>
> The companion spoke for Hedford once the annexation of Hedford's body
> was accomplished. Why should we count the companion as a reliable
> source of information?
Why shouldn't we?
Did she ever bend the truth?
--
Wouter Valentijn
www.wouter.cc
www.nksf.nl
www.zeppodunsel.nl
liam=mail
The glory of creation is in its infinite diversity and the ways our
differences combine to create meaning and beauty.
Vulcan IDIC "Is There In Truth No Beauty?"
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| Re: Top 6 Most dubious command decisions made by Kirk [message #188000 ] |
Di, 20 Dezember 2005 20:00 |
|
ToolPackinMama wrote:
> ANIM8Rfsk wrote:
>
>> How was the Companion not a predator?
>
> Exactly! It captured the shuttlecraft and brought those unwilling
> captives to its nest... for its own uses. That's predatory behavior.
No one was killed. No one was eaten.
--
Wouter Valentijn
www.wouter.cc
www.nksf.nl
www.zeppodunsel.nl
liam=mail
The glory of creation is in its infinite diversity and the ways our
differences combine to create meaning and beauty.
Vulcan IDIC "Is There In Truth No Beauty?"
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| Re: Top 6 Most dubious command decisions made by Kirk [message #188001 ] |
Di, 20 Dezember 2005 20:01 |
|
ToolPackinMama wrote:
> Wouter Valentijn wrote:
>
>> Ah, I think that we have to agree to disagree.
>
> That's not possible! We can't agree to disagree! That would be
> civilized! We can't be civilized! That's impossible! This is
> ~usenet~!
LOL
--
Wouter Valentijn
www.wouter.cc
www.nksf.nl
www.zeppodunsel.nl
liam=mail
The glory of creation is in its infinite diversity and the ways our
differences combine to create meaning and beauty.
Vulcan IDIC "Is There In Truth No Beauty?"
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| Re: Top 6 Most dubious command decisions made by Kirk [message #188002 ] |
Di, 20 Dezember 2005 23:47 |
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"ToolPackinMama" <laura [at] lauragoodwin.org> wrote in message
news:8YudnYWt-pMiTDneRVn-uA [at] comcast.com...
> They are 2 people on an uncharted world, and they asked that no one be
> told of there whereabouts. If they get their wish, they will have no
> support services.
>
> No visitors.
>
> No doctor or midwife to assist in the delivery of the children.
>
> Just the two of them, and whatever children might result that survive.
>
> How are those kids going to ever leave that planet? They will be forced
> to breed with their siblings to grow the population.
This is pure speculation on my part, but I always figured Kirk and company
went back there to check on them at some point. It would fit the
characters.
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| Re: Top 6 Most dubious command decisions made by Kirk [message #188007 ] |
Mi, 21 Dezember 2005 13:47 |
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Laura Ware wrote:
> "ToolPackinMama" <laura [at] lauragoodwin.org> wrote in message
> news:8YudnYWt-pMiTDneRVn-uA [at] comcast.com...
>
>> They are 2 people on an uncharted world, and they asked that no one
>> be told of there whereabouts. If they get their wish, they will
>> have no support services.
>>
>> No visitors.
>>
>> No doctor or midwife to assist in the delivery of the children.
>>
>> Just the two of them, and whatever children might result that
>> survive. How are those kids going to ever leave that planet? They will
>> be
>> forced to breed with their siblings to grow the population.
>
> This is pure speculation on my part, but I always figured Kirk and
> company went back there to check on them at some point. It would fit
> the characters.
There was a Gold Key comic that was a sequel to this story. Not canon of
course.
Both Cochrane and Hedford had aged (of course there was no more immortality
as was said in 'Metamorphoses') and others of the Companion's species had
come for the Companion and had extracted her from Hedford. Because of this
Nancy Hedford started to die and the Enterprise was called in (or came by)
and aided them getting the Companion back from the realm her 'countrymen'
had kept her so she could rejoin with Nancy Hedford.
--
Wouter Valentijn
www.wouter.cc
www.nksf.nl
www.zeppodunsel.nl
liam=mail
The glory of creation is in its infinite diversity and the ways our
differences combine to create meaning and beauty.
Vulcan IDIC "Is There In Truth No Beauty?"
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| Re: Top 6 Most dubious command decisions made by Kirk [message #188014 ] |
Mi, 21 Dezember 2005 22:24 |
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in article 43a853d7$0$11077$e4fe514c [at] news.xs4all.nl, Wouter Valentijn at
liam [at] valentijn.nu wrote on 12/20/05 11:56 AM:
> ANIM8Rfsk wrote:
>> in article 43a72cde$0$11064$e4fe514c [at] news.xs4all.nl, Wouter Valentijn
>> at liam [at] valentijn.nu wrote on 12/19/05 2:57 PM:
>>
>>> ANIM8Rfsk wrote:
>>>> in article 43a6fb2d$0$11080$e4fe514c [at] news.xs4all.nl, Wouter
>>>> Valentijn at liam [at] valentijn.nu wrote on 12/19/05 11:25 AM:
>>>>
>>>>> ANIM8Rfsk wrote:
>>>>>> in article 43a5d8ac$0$11063$e4fe514c [at] news.xs4all.nl, Wouter
>>>>>> Valentijn at liam [at] valentijn.nu wrote on 12/18/05 2:46 PM:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ANIM8Rfsk wrote:
>>>>>>>> in article 43a585c0$0$11079$e4fe514c [at] news.xs4all.nl, Wouter
>>>>>>>> Valentijn at liam [at] valentijn.nu wrote on 12/18/05 8:52 AM:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ANIM8Rfsk wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> in article 43a491cb$0$11074$e4fe514c [at] news.xs4all.nl, Wouter
>>>>>>>>>> Valentijn at liam [at] valentijn.nu wrote on 12/17/05 3:31 PM:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> ANIM8Rfsk wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> in article 43a4333c$0$11079$e4fe514c [at] news.xs4all.nl, Wouter
>>>>>>>>>>>> Valentijn at liam [at] valentijn.nu wrote on 12/17/05 8:48 AM:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Brad Filippone wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> <snip>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I had a few problems with the "find a solution right now
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or it's genocide" approach on Deneva :)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I have a problem with people calling it genocide when
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> clearly the Denevans are not the only humans in the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> universe.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> It would have been the genocide of the Denevan humans.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> That assumes Denvan humans are a race, of course.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> No.
>>>>>>>>>>> It assumes a specific group of people.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> So do you think you can commit genocide against a city or a
>>>>>>>>>> high school, if you wipe out everybody in the area?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> If so, we've sort of watered the term down to nothing.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> No, as I said: a *specific* group of people. In this case the
>>>>>>>>> entire population of the colony.
>>>>>>>>> Specific as in 'unique'.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Why is a group of colonists on one planet any more unique than
>>>>>>>> all the settlers that moved to Virginia City?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If the people of this Virginia City are targeted than that would
>>>>>>> be mass murder. Or an 'ethnic cleansing'.
>>>>>>> When talking about a whole colony or a group of people targeted
>>>>>>> because of their religion or ethnic back ground, I'd call it
>>>>>>> genocide.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But they aren't targeted because of religion or ethnic background.
>>>>>> They're targeted to contain an infectious disease.
>>>>>
>>>>> The end result would still be the same sadly.
>>>>>
>>>> But you specified that's what would make you call it genocide. So
>>>> why is Kirk wiping out a colony genocide?
>>>
>>> Because the whole population of a colony (a "nation", a "people")
>>> would be gone.
>>
>> And why is that different than a whole city being wiped out?
>
>
> If you have an entire colony (no matter what size it has) it is in itself
> more unique than a city (although that might be 100 times bigger than that
> colony).
> A city may be part of a much larger whole.
> Of course in some cases they might be the same if the entire colony is jut
> one city.
>
> Suppose you have a small group of people consisting of say thirty or fifty
> people that goes to some island. Suppose they call themselves the
> Klappa-Klappa-Puka-Holly-Whoop, aka the people of the Double Klappa, or DK
> for short. And they are recognized as such.
> The moment some rogue nation or so comes along and for whatever reason nukes
> that island the people of the DK are gone.
> I would call that genocide. Or if the nuke goes astray I'd call it attempted
> genocide.
So if I took out Tahiti it would be genocide?
--
You Can't Stop the Signal
SERENITY Amazon.com Sales Rank: #1 in DVD
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000BW7QWW/tvshowsond vdcom
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| Re: Top 6 Most dubious command decisions made by Kirk [message #188015 ] |
Mi, 21 Dezember 2005 22:25 |
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in article 43a85437$0$11075$e4fe514c [at] news.xs4all.nl, Wouter Valentijn at
liam [at] valentijn.nu wrote on 12/20/05 11:57 AM:
> Kweeg wrote:
>> "Wouter Valentijn" <liam [at] valentijn.nu> wrote in message
>> news:43a72cde$0$11064$e4fe514c [at] news.xs4all.nl...
>>> ANIM8Rfsk wrote:
>>>> in article 43a6fb2d$0$11080$e4fe514c [at] news.xs4all.nl, Wouter
>>>> Valentijn at liam [at] valentijn.nu wrote on 12/19/05 11:25 AM:
>
> <snip>
>
>>>>>> But they aren't targeted because of religion or ethnic background.
>>>>>> They're targeted to contain an infectious disease.
>>>>>
>>>>> The end result would still be the same sadly.
>>>>>
>>>> But you specified that's what would make you call it genocide. So
>>>> why is Kirk wiping out a colony genocide?
>>>
>>> Because the whole population of a colony (a "nation", a "people")
>>> would be gone.
>>
>>
>> Wow you're still trying to convince "ANIM8Rfsk" of the blatantly
>> obvious. You've more patience than I, 'e's not the brightest phaser
>> in the armory...
>
> Hmmm... Maybe there should be an agreement to disagree. :)
>
Agreed. And while we're at it, let's agree not to bother with a troll like
Kweeg.
--
You Can't Stop the Signal
SERENITY Amazon.com Sales Rank: #1 in DVD
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000BW7QWW/tvshowsond vdcom
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| Re: Top 6 Most dubious command decisions made by Kirk [message #188016 ] |
Mi, 21 Dezember 2005 22:27 |
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in article 43a854c6$0$11067$e4fe514c [at] news.xs4all.nl, Wouter Valentijn at
liam [at] valentijn.nu wrote on 12/20/05 12:00 PM:
> ToolPackinMama wrote:
>> ANIM8Rfsk wrote:
>>
>>> How was the Companion not a predator?
>>
>> Exactly! It captured the shuttlecraft and brought those unwilling
>> captives to its nest... for its own uses. That's predatory behavior.
>
> No one was killed. No one was eaten.
Nothing in the definition of 'predator' requires killing or eating:
1. An organism that lives by preying on other organisms.
2. One that victimizes, plunders, or destroys, especially for one's own
gain.
I'd say that sums up the Companion's behavior quite nicely.
--
You Can't Stop the Signal
SERENITY Amazon.com Sales Rank: #1 in DVD
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000BW7QWW/tvshowsond vdcom
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| Re: Top 6 Most dubious command decisions made by Kirk [message #188017 ] |
Do, 22 Dezember 2005 00:16 |
|
ANIM8Rfsk wrote:
> in article 43a853d7$0$11077$e4fe514c [at] news.xs4all.nl, Wouter Valentijn
> at liam [at] valentijn.nu wrote on 12/20/05 11:56 AM:
>
>> ANIM8Rfsk wrote:
>>> in article 43a72cde$0$11064$e4fe514c [at] news.xs4all.nl, Wouter
>>> Valentijn at liam [at] valentijn.nu wrote on 12/19/05 2:57 PM:
>>>
>>>> ANIM8Rfsk wrote:
>>>>> in article 43a6fb2d$0$11080$e4fe514c [at] news.xs4all.nl, Wouter
>>>>> Valentijn at liam [at] valentijn.nu wrote on 12/19/05 11:25 AM:
>>>>>
>>>>>> ANIM8Rfsk wrote:
>>>>>>> in article 43a5d8ac$0$11063$e4fe514c [at] news.xs4all.nl, Wouter
>>>>>>> Valentijn at liam [at] valentijn.nu wrote on 12/18/05 2:46 PM:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ANIM8Rfsk wrote:
>>>>>>>>> in article 43a585c0$0$11079$e4fe514c [at] news.xs4all.nl, Wouter
>>>>>>>>> Valentijn at liam [at] valentijn.nu wrote on 12/18/05 8:52 AM:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> ANIM8Rfsk wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> in article 43a491cb$0$11074$e4fe514c [at] news.xs4all.nl, Wouter
>>>>>>>>>>> Valentijn at liam [at] valentijn.nu wrote on 12/17/05 3:31 PM:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> ANIM8Rfsk wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> in article 43a4333c$0$11079$e4fe514c [at] news.xs4all.nl,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Wouter Valentijn at liam [at] valentijn.nu wrote on 12/17/05
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 8:48 AM:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Brad Filippone wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <snip>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I had a few problems with the "find a solution right
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> now or it's genocide" approach on Deneva :)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I have a problem with people calling it genocide when
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> clearly the Denevans are not the only humans in the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> universe.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It would have been the genocide of the Denevan humans.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> That assumes Denvan humans are a race, of course.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> No.
>>>>>>>>>>>> It assumes a specific group of people.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> So do you think you can commit genocide against a city or a
>>>>>>>>>>> high school, if you wipe out everybody in the area?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> If so, we've sort of watered the term down to nothing.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> No, as I said: a *specific* group of people. In this case the
>>>>>>>>>> entire population of the colony.
>>>>>>>>>> Specific as in 'unique'.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Why is a group of colonists on one planet any more unique than
>>>>>>>>> all the settlers that moved to Virginia City?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If the people of this Virginia City are targeted than that
>>>>>>>> would be mass murder. Or an 'ethnic cleansing'.
>>>>>>>> When talking about a whole colony or a group of people targeted
>>>>>>>> because of their religion or ethnic back ground, I'd call it
>>>>>>>> genocide.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But they aren't targeted because of religion or ethnic
>>>>>>> background. They're targeted to contain an infectious disease.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The end result would still be the same sadly.
>>>>>>
>>>>> But you specified that's what would make you call it genocide. So
>>>>> why is Kirk wiping out a colony genocide?
>>>>
>>>> Because the whole population of a colony (a "nation", a "people")
>>>> would be gone.
>>>
>>> And why is that different than a whole city being wiped out?
>>
>>
>> If you have an entire colony (no matter what size it has) it is in
>> itself more unique than a city (although that might be 100 times
>> bigger than that colony).
>> A city may be part of a much larger whole.
>> Of course in some cases they might be the same if the entire colony
>> is jut one city.
>>
>> Suppose you have a small group of people consisting of say thirty or
>> fifty people that goes to some island. Suppose they call themselves
>> the Klappa-Klappa-Puka-Holly-Whoop, aka the people of the Double
>> Klappa, or DK for short. And they are recognized as such.
>> The moment some rogue nation or so comes along and for whatever
>> reason nukes that island the people of the DK are gone.
>> I would call that genocide. Or if the nuke goes astray I'd call it
>> attempted genocide.
>
> So if I took out Tahiti it would be genocide?
I think so, yeah.
--
Wouter Valentijn
www.wouter.cc
www.nksf.nl
www.zeppodunsel.nl
liam=mail
The glory of creation is in its infinite diversity and the ways our
differences combine to create meaning and beauty.
Vulcan IDIC "Is There In Truth No Beauty?"
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| Re: Top 6 Most dubious command decisions made by Kirk [message #188018 ] |
Do, 22 Dezember 2005 00:25 |
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ANIM8Rfsk wrote:
> in article 43a85437$0$11075$e4fe514c [at] news.xs4all.nl, Wouter Valentijn
> at liam [at] valentijn.nu wrote on 12/20/05 11:57 AM:
>
>> Kweeg wrote:
>>> "Wouter Valentijn" <liam [at] valentijn.nu> wrote in message
>>> news:43a72cde$0$11064$e4fe514c [at] news.xs4all.nl...
>>>> ANIM8Rfsk wrote:
>>>>> in article 43a6fb2d$0$11080$e4fe514c [at] news.xs4all.nl, Wouter
>>>>> Valentijn at liam [at] valentijn.nu wrote on 12/19/05 11:25 AM:
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>>>>>>> But they aren't targeted because of religion or ethnic
>>>>>>> background. They're targeted to contain an infectious disease.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The end result would still be the same sadly.
>>>>>>
>>>>> But you specified that's what would make you call it genocide. So
>>>>> why is Kirk wiping out a colony genocide?
>>>>
>>>> Because the whole population of a colony (a "nation", a "people")
>>>> would be gone.
>>>
>>>
>>> Wow you're still trying to convince "ANIM8Rfsk" of the blatantly
>>> obvious. You've more patience than I, 'e's not the brightest phaser
>>> in the armory...
>>
>> Hmmm... Maybe there should be an agreement to disagree. :)
>>
> Agreed. And while we're at it, let's agree not to bother with a
> troll like Kweeg.
Okay, we agree to disagree.
I have no problems with Kweeg.
It seems to me that sometimes some harsh words are being said. I try to stay
away from those, although I might not always succeed.
We have a saying: "Op de bal spelen, niet op de man."
It has several variations and comes from football (or soccer as Americans
might say).
Translated, roughly: "[When playing] go for the ball, not the guy."
--
Wouter Valentijn (not really into sports).
www.wouter.cc
www.nksf.nl
www.zeppodunsel.nl
liam=mail
The glory of creation is in its infinite diversity and the ways our
differences combine to create meaning and beauty.
Vulcan IDIC "Is There In Truth No Beauty?"
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| Re: Top 6 Most dubious command decisions made by Kirk [message #188019 ] |
Do, 22 Dezember 2005 00:36 |
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ANIM8Rfsk wrote:
> in article 43a854c6$0$11067$e4fe514c [at] news.xs4all.nl, Wouter Valentijn
> at liam [at] valentijn.nu wrote on 12/20/05 12:00 PM:
>
>> ToolPackinMama wrote:
>>> ANIM8Rfsk wrote:
>>>
>>>> How was the Companion not a predator?
>>>
>>> Exactly! It captured the shuttlecraft and brought those unwilling
>>> captives to its nest... for its own uses. That's predatory
>>> behavior.
>>
>> No one was killed. No one was eaten.
>
> Nothing in the definition of 'predator' requires killing or eating:
>
> 1. An organism that lives by preying on other organisms.
> 2. One that victimizes, plunders, or destroys, especially for one's
> own gain.
>
> I'd say that sums up the Companion's behavior quite nicely.
I see only one 'crime', and that would be abduction.
And that was for *his* benefit. It was an act of love. He was getting tired
of being so sad and lonely.
That Hedford's life was for some time in serious danger was a side effect
that ultimately was cured by the merger. A merger through which the
Companion sacrificed all her 'superpowers' and her immortality (and his!).
And leaving her totally incapable of leaving that place because her life
emanated from it.
But again, I don't think I'm going to convince you. And besides we already
have agreed to disagree.
--
Wouter Valentijn
www.wouter.cc
www.nksf.nl
www.zeppodunsel.nl
liam=mail
The glory of creation is in its infinite diversity and the ways our
differences combine to create meaning and beauty.
Vulcan IDIC "Is There In Truth No Beauty?"
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| Re: Top 6 Most dubious command decisions made by Kirk [message #188020 ] |
Do, 22 Dezember 2005 01:01 |
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Wouter Valentijn wrote:
> Okay, we agree to disagree.
Yay! :)
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| Re: Top 6 Most dubious command decisions made by Kirk [message #188023 ] |
Do, 22 Dezember 2005 05:25 |
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Laura Ware wrote:
> "ToolPackinMama" <laura [at] lauragoodwin.org> wrote in message
> news:8YudnYWt-pMiTDneRVn-uA [at] comcast.com...
>
>
>>They are 2 people on an uncharted world, and they asked that no one be
>>told of there whereabouts. If they get their wish, they will have no
>>support services.
>>
>>No visitors.
>>
>>No doctor or midwife to assist in the delivery of the children.
>>
>>Just the two of them, and whatever children might result that survive.
>>
>>How are those kids going to ever leave that planet? They will be forced
>>to breed with their siblings to grow the population.
>
>
> This is pure speculation on my part, but I always figured Kirk and company
> went back there to check on them at some point. It would fit the
> characters.
I don't disagree with that.
Kirk *is* the kind of guy who would "promise" something he didn't
believe in (to achieve a short-term goal), only to ultimately do what he
honestly thinks is RIGHT. Kirk sometimes plays with moral ambiguity, he
sometimes pushes the moral envelope... but he always does the right
thing in the end.
Why? Cos Kirk is the show's "hero". He's the "good guy". Never forget
that.
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| Re: Top 6 Most dubious command decisions made by Kirk [message #188024 ] |
Do, 22 Dezember 2005 05:53 |
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whodunit wrote:
> In spite of some of the things you've put out here in the past, you
> don't have much of an imagination for a positive male-female love story,
> do you? Sad.
It's not like she wasn't liked or respected. She was a Federation
Commissioner to start with, and a pretty young woman to boot. Just cos
she feverishly complained that she was good at her job, but had "never
been loved" doesn't mean she was in any way a bad person. She had been
granted a vital diplomatic mission: to "stop a war". She must have had
~something~ on the ball.
IMHO, she is more polite while deathly ill than most people are when
they are healthy. Surely that is to her credit.
She was dying. She had been robbed of her one hope for health, and was
dying! How good of a sport would you be under such circumstances?
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| Re: Top 6 Most dubious command decisions made by Kirk [message #188025 ] |
Do, 22 Dezember 2005 05:54 |
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whodunit wrote:
> Now you can read a negative possibility into every single instance where
> there is a possibility of POSITIVE male-female love, but to me, the
> episode clearly left the viewer with the impression that the two had
> a strong, positive future together, living 'happily ever after'. Not a
> single ominous overtone in it that I remember.
It's not like she wasn't liked or respected. She was a Federation
Commissioner to start with, and a pretty young woman to boot. Just cos
she feverishly complained that she was good at her job, but had "never
been loved" doesn't mean she was in any way a bad person. She had been
granted a vital diplomatic mission: to "stop a war". She must have had
~something~ on the ball.
IMHO, she is more polite while deathly ill than most people are when
they are healthy. Surely that is to her credit.
She was dying. She had been robbed of her one hope for health, and was
dying! How good of a sport would you be under such circumstances?
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| Re: Top 6 Most dubious command decisions made by Kirk [message #188026 ] |
Do, 22 Dezember 2005 05:58 |
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Kweeg wrote:
> "whodunit" <pillut_48 [at] sbcworldly.net> wrote in message
> news:eK7pf.34507$dO2.18921 [at] newssvr29.news.prodigy.net...
>>In spite of some of the things you've put out here in the past, you
>>don't have much of an imagination for a positive male-female love story,
>>do you? Sad.
>
>
> LOL, indeed.
I "believe" in male/female love. I'm a woman (Laura) who is happily,
hetrosexually married to (Bruce), a male husband, for example. We have
been a couple since 1983. We'll probbly be together until we die.
Comments?
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| Re: Top 6 Most dubious command decisions made by Kirk [message #188027 ] |
Do, 22 Dezember 2005 06:07 |
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Cochrane never courted and won Nancy Hedford. They never fell in love.
I ask again: What's romantic about that?
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| Re: Top 6 Most dubious command decisions made by Kirk [message #188028 ] |
Do, 22 Dezember 2005 06:09 |
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ToolPackinMama wrote:
> Kirk *is* the kind of guy who would "promise" something he didn't
> believe in (to achieve a short-term goal), only to ultimately do what he
> honestly thinks is RIGHT.
Refer: Piece Of Ohe Action. :)
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| Re: Top 6 Most dubious command decisions made by Kirk [message #188029 ] |
Do, 22 Dezember 2005 06:10 |
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ToolPackinMama wrote:
> ToolPackinMama wrote:
>
>> Kirk *is* the kind of guy who would "promise" something he didn't
>> believe in (to achieve a short-term goal), only to ultimately do what
>> he honestly thinks is RIGHT.
>
>
> Refer: Piece Of *The* Action. :)
:)
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| Re: Top 6 Most dubious command decisions made by Kirk [message #188030 ] |
Do, 22 Dezember 2005 07:33 |
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"Wouter Valentijn" <liam [at] valentijn.nu> wrote in message
news:43a9e453$0$11071$e4fe514c [at] news.xs4all.nl...
> ANIM8Rfsk wrote:
> > in article 43a85437$0$11075$e4fe514c [at] news.xs4all.nl, Wouter Valentijn
> > at liam [at] valentijn.nu wrote on 12/20/05 11:57 AM:
> >
> >> Kweeg wrote:
> >>> "Wouter Valentijn" <liam [at] valentijn.nu> wrote in message
> >>> news:43a72cde$0$11064$e4fe514c [at] news.xs4all.nl...
> >>>> ANIM8Rfsk wrote:
> >>>>> in article 43a6fb2d$0$11080$e4fe514c [at] news.xs4all.nl, Wouter
> >>>>> Valentijn at liam [at] valentijn.nu wrote on 12/19/05 11:25 AM:
> >>
> >> <snip>
> >>
> >>>>>>> But they aren't targeted because of religion or ethnic
> >>>>>>> background. They're targeted to contain an infectious disease.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> The end result would still be the same sadly.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>> But you specified that's what would make you call it genocide. So
> >>>>> why is Kirk wiping out a colony genocide?
> >>>>
> >>>> Because the whole population of a colony (a "nation", a "people")
> >>>> would be gone.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Wow you're still trying to convince "ANIM8Rfsk" of the blatantly
> >>> obvious. You've more patience than I, 'e's not the brightest phaser
> >>> in the armory...
> >>
> >> Hmmm... Maybe there should be an agreement to disagree. :)
> >>
> > Agreed. And while we're at it, let's agree not to bother with a
> > troll like Kweeg.
>
> Okay, we agree to disagree.
> I have no problems with Kweeg.
> It seems to me that sometimes some harsh words are being said. I try to
stay
> away from those, although I might not always succeed.
> We have a saying: "Op de bal spelen, niet op de man."
> It has several variations and comes from football (or soccer as Americans
> might say).
> Translated, roughly: "[When playing] go for the ball, not the guy."
Indeed.
But then again ANIM8Rfsk might have a problem assimilating more information,
such as abstract thought, as he still hasn't understood the blatantly
obvious you so diligently spelt out for him in every post in this long
thread. Probably why he's in my killfile, I can't be bothered continually
trying to explain something to him that's beyond his grasp.... and look who
calling who a troll.
--
Qapla'
Kweeg
Ten of Canadian Clubs in the Eeeevil Trek Cabal
http://members.shaw.ca/iksbloodoath
"Half a gallon a'scotch!" Scotty (Spectre of the Gun)
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| Re: Top 6 Most dubious command decisions made by Kirk [message #188031 ] |
Do, 22 Dezember 2005 07:39 |
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> But then again ANIM8Rfsk might have a problem assimilating more information,
> such as abstract thought, as he still hasn't understood the blatantly
> obvious you so diligently spelt out for him in every post in this long
> thread. Probably why he's in my killfile, I can't be bothered continually
> trying to explain something to him that's beyond his grasp.... and look who
> calling who a troll.
Hey, ANIM8Rfsk, look who's on the wrong side of Kweeg, _with you_! :)
Ironic, eh, what!? :)
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| Re: Top 6 Most dubious command decisions made by Kirk [message #188032 ] |
Do, 22 Dezember 2005 07:41 |
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Kweeg wrote:
> look who
> calling who a troll.
Indeed! The same guy who has called me a troll many times! LOL!
~How does it feel~, Kweeg? :)
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| Re: Top 6 Most dubious command decisions made by Kirk [message #188033 ] |
Do, 22 Dezember 2005 07:53 |
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RE: Metamorphosis:
It's not that I don't understand what the intended message of the ep
was. I know what the intended feel-good message was. I'm just saying
that the story was told very poorly, in a manner that was ambiguous, and
that left many troubling questions open.
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| Re: Top 6 Most dubious command decisions made by Kirk [message #188042 ] |
Do, 22 Dezember 2005 17:50 |
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ANIM8Rfsk (ANIM8Rfsk [at] cox.net) wrote:
: So if I took out Tahiti it would be genocide?
No, but if you took out the White House, the world will thank you. :)
Brad
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| Re: Top 6 Most dubious command decisions made by Kirk [message #188044 ] |
Do, 22 Dezember 2005 21:40 |
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The time he fired Scotty.
Lucky for him, Scotty continued working on the problem at hand, and
eventually saved the day (and was rehired).
STRATEGY
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